Template:Did you know nominations/Pirjo Ala-Kapee-Hakulinen
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 23:49, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
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Pirjo Ala-Kapee-Hakulinen
... that from 1986 to 1987, Pirjo Ala-Kapee-Hakulinen was simultaneously a city councillor, a member of the Finnish Parliament, and Finland's Minister of Education?Source: [1] (in Finnish)- ALT1: ... that Pirjo Ala-Kapee-Hakulinen was the first and only governor of the Eastern Finland Province, from its creation in 1997 to its abolition in 2010?
Created by DanCherek (talk). Self-nominated at 04:16, 10 April 2021 (UTC).
The hook and article are OK for length and both are adequately reffed to good sources. Its neutral and the hook is kind of interesting as she is a minister AND a councillor. There is a free image that could be used. Great work from DanCherek for the Women in Red editathon. Victuallers (talk) 12:37, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
- It's not at all rare to be in all those three positions at the same time. I checked the current Finnish government and quickly found four ministers who are also currently city councillors (and MPs as most ministers are), including the current Prime Minister. In fact the majority (171/200) of the MPs were also city council members as of 2019.[2] -kyykaarme (talk) 17:59, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Kyykaarme: Thanks for the feedback. How about the following ALT1 hook, instead of the original? (pinging Victuallers as well) DanCherek (talk) 20:59, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
- ALT1: ... that Pirjo Ala-Kapee-Hakulinen was the first and only governor of the Eastern Finland Province, from its creation in 1997 to its abolition in 2010?
- @Kyykaarme: Thanks for the feedback. How about the following ALT1 hook, instead of the original? (pinging Victuallers as well) DanCherek (talk) 20:59, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Kyykaarme: This is not sensible. It doesn't matter whether Finnish ministers are all city councillors. To use an analogy many people have smoked pot, but when we have a news story of a US senator doing it then that is a hook. If most people think that it is unusual for a minister to also be a councillor then its a hook. To reject a hooky hook for an albeit unique fact that (say) this person is the only person in his street to wear size 5 shoes who also owns a dented 2 pint saucepan is not sensible. Can we reconsider? (or at least base the decision to change on hookiness and not on uniqueness.) Victuallers (talk) 21:56, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Victuallers: I don't think your analogy fits, though, because in this case all US senators are pot smokers, so it doesn't make sense to single out one of them. The reader is misled into believing that being in the 3 political positions is out of the ordinary, and while in a global context it might be, it's not in this context. (And is being an MP and a minister at the same time out of the ordinary even in a global context?) Choosing to point out those 3 positions suggests that it's somehow special, and when the readers read the article they become none the wiser because naturally the article doesn't explain that this is the norm and not the exception. -kyykaarme (talk) 19:58, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Kyykaarme: I agree with the idea that the article should point out how routine this is.... and when it does then we can have the hook that she was NOT a councillor and a minister at the same time ... not much of a hook though even though it passes your unusual test. Still maybe not time to score debating points but a time to find a hooky hook. Would you be happy with the first one of we note the chances of taking all three roles in the article? Victuallers (talk) 20:10, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- This conversation is kind of confusing me now, but when I wrote the original hook I hadn't realized it was commonplace (cabinet members are mutually exclusive with members of Congress in the United States, and neither would be simultaneously serving on a city council). But, I'm not sure that adding stats to the article for the sake of the hook would improve the article. When I proposed the alternate, I thought it was hooky beceause of the short-livedness of the province. Best, DanCherek (talk) 20:20, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Victuallers: This nomination is sitting in limbo on the Approved page right now. Thoughts on ALT1? I will move it back to the nominations page if this needs further discussion. DanCherek (talk) 15:44, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Victuallers: I don't understand your attitude towards my comments. I'm not here to score points, I just happened to notice this DYK in the Finland related article alerts, and in my opinion the Alt0 is misleading. The hook might seem unusual for Americans, but it is not at all unusual in Finland, and the article is about a Finnish politician. And because it is not unusual, it doesn't make sense to point it out in the article. If the article were about Finnish MPs in general, then it could be an interesting mention that most of them are also city councillors, but for this particular politician it was just a normal part of her career like it is for many other Finnish politicians. -kyykaarme (talk) 13:27, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Kyykaarme: There was a DYK article and an approved hook. Your point seems to be that its not unusual enough and although two of us think its a hook then we are wrong because if we knew all about the details of Finnish politicians then we would realise that what we find intriguing, and what we think others would find intriguing ... isn't. There is now a new hook. I think it best that you take over the review... as I was just about to tell Dan that we would just proceed with the original hook. Victuallers (talk) 13:46, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
- This conversation is kind of confusing me now, but when I wrote the original hook I hadn't realized it was commonplace (cabinet members are mutually exclusive with members of Congress in the United States, and neither would be simultaneously serving on a city council). But, I'm not sure that adding stats to the article for the sake of the hook would improve the article. When I proposed the alternate, I thought it was hooky beceause of the short-livedness of the province. Best, DanCherek (talk) 20:20, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- It's not at all rare to be in all those three positions at the same time. I checked the current Finnish government and quickly found four ministers who are also currently city councillors (and MPs as most ministers are), including the current Prime Minister. In fact the majority (171/200) of the MPs were also city council members as of 2019.[2] -kyykaarme (talk) 17:59, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Thank you both for your thoughtful comments. I'm moving this back to the nominations page to request a fresh review of ALT1. DanCherek (talk) 14:04, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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Hook eligibility:
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| QPQ: Done. |
Overall: 
The cited given in the article [3] says that (1) she was the only female governor of Eastern Finland, (2) she served from 1997 until the governor position was abolished in January 2010. Can you give a citation to show that the province was formed in 1997? Joofjoof (talk) 05:06, 30 April 2021 (UTC)