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Template:Did you know nominations/Piano Concerto (Reger)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 17:08, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Piano Concerto (Reger)

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Frieda Kwast-Hodapp
Frieda Kwast-Hodapp

5x expanded by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 20:37, 3 December 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall:

New enough (5x on December 3), long enough, properly sourced, and otherwise free of relevant issues. Hook (which I trimmed)

is cited and interesting. Image properly licensed, appropriate and used in article.

Just need QPQ. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 05:44, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the review! I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/C. S. N. Patnaik. You trimmed the hook a bit too much for my taste, - I therefore show both, for more transparency. It is common to give the key for compositions that travel under a generic title (and also: major or minor tells about the mood) and the Op. number, which reflects that it's a mature work. I tried to say that neutrally, - if we skip it, we may want to add something about as how monumental and challenging ... it has been described (but I'm no friend of the flowery critics' language). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:56, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt, could you add an inline citation for "1970s"? --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 08:45, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
That's what the sources say but now I found a YT from 1959, and by his father oh dear ... - I'll keep digging, YT is not a RS. - I found something else, - will ping you when used, and found more for the recording. - I want to work on an overdue RD article first. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:20, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Now I added a source about his father doing the first recording, and the son doing a famous performance at Carnegie Hall.
ALT1: ... that the Piano Concerto in F minor, Op. 114, by Max Reger, dedicated to Frieda Kwast-Hodapp (pictured) who played the premiere in Leipzig in 1910, was first recorded by the American pianist Rudolf Serkin in 1959?
I had to change both pianists' names, the lady because she seems to have used a double name. I found two more good sources, liner notes by Hyperion, with details about the background - composer promised her a concerto for years - and another review of the 2016 concert, by the New York Times. I'll expand later today or tomorrow, but you could could check for DYK already as it is. - The overdue RD was Christiane Hörbiger, and perhaps check the ITN nom. - I have a rehearsal today for a concert on Sunday, so will have to see how far I get. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:54, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
ALT1 is now 202 characters. I prefer trimming "F minor, Op. 114". Right now there are too many links and it is hard to understand because of too much information. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 00:37, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
ALT2: ... that the Piano Concerto in F minor by Max Reger, dedicated to Frieda Kwast-Hodapp (pictured) who played the premiere in Leipzig in 1910, was first recorded by the American pianist Rudolf Serkin in 1959? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:20, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Good to go with ALT2! --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 03:47, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt and Coffeeandcrumbs: While the hook has an interesting core, I'd wager that it still has far too much information to parse for most readers. Normally, this is something I would simply take care of in prep, but I'll extend the courtesy of floating my version here instead. Every piece has at least one key, as well as at least one composer. We've also tried the "first recorded much later" angle several times; it doesn't seem to be very catchy. How about:

theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 14:14, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

If Gerda Arendt is in agreement, I would want to see the name of the composer put back in, "in 1910" moved to right after "premiered", and the quotation marks removed from Piano Concerto as that is not how untitled compositions are written. @theleekycauldron
--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 15:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Okay, I'm willing to work with that :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 21:18, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
  • ALT3a: ... that in 1910, Frieda Kwast-Hodapp (pictured) premiered Max Reger's Piano Concerto, which was dedicated to her?
    Sorry, that's way to common that a work is dedicated to the first performer to be of interest. That a German work is first recorded by an American is unusual, and several sources remember that first recording even if about other recordings or performances: 1) "The soloist, Peter Serkin, however was stellar throughout and played thrillingly in what was also a poetic continuation of his late father’s work. Rudolf Serkin took on Reger’s F minor concerto for a 1959 recording with conductor Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra." (2016), 2) "This was for a long time the property of Busch’s son-in-law, Rudolf Serkin, insofar as it was anyone’s. His CBS recording of it was really the only way one could hear it." (2006), 3) Rudolf Serkin was a strong advocate of the Piano Concerto (Sony should prepare a new transfer of his CBS recording ..." (1998). It's a legendary recording worth telling the world. Those readers for whom it would be too much could just look at the pic. - Thank you for the courtesy to discuss. - I was out. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:51, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
    Trying to please:
    ALT2... that the 1910 Piano Concerto by Max Reger was first played by Frieda Kwast-Hodapp (pictured), and first recorded by the American pianist Rudolf Serkin in 1959? But why we would drop the minor key, the dedication and Leipzig I don't know? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:59, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Since this nomination has been stuck for a while, I'll have to say that I don't think ALT2 meets the broad intriguingness criterion. It's reliant on specialist knowledge like knowing who Reger/Kwast-Hodapp/Serkin are, or why them performing it is a big deal. If I were to suggest an angle, I suppose one involving the manuscript being destroyed but a dedication being known could work. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:46, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

  • Another possible angle, although it would require some changes to the article (One possible source to support this angle I found is [1], with a possible alternative source being [2])
ALT4 ... that in the dedication page of his Piano Concerto, Max Reger refers to himself as "The Chief Pig"?
Personally I don't think this would be considered a negative hook since the "Chief Pig" wording seems to have come from Reger himself, at least according to the sources I read. However, I can't seem to confirm for sure if the phrase came from Reger or from Kwast (as what is apparently suggested by [3]). Some sources also say "Head Beast" rather than "The Chief Pig"; I don't have access to the original German so I don't know what the actual wording is. Courtesy pings to Coffeeandcrumbs and Theleekycauldron. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:31, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
I am not interested in approving a hook the creator doesn't like. I am happy to review this hook, if Gerda Arendt likes it. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 06:36, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
(edit conflict) For reference, here are the quotes in question that discuss the "Chief Pig"/"Head Beast" angle:
  • The Irish Times: Reger knew the piece would meet resistance for years (it was savaged at its premiere), and inscribed a copy to Frieda Kwast-Hodapp, who commented: “This beastly stuff belongs to Frau Kwast. The Chief Pig, Max Reger, confirms it.”
  • Hyperion: The autograph manuscript was lost when Bote & Bock’s Berlin headquarters were destroyed in 1943, but it apparently bore a characteristic inscription to Frieda Kwast-Hodapp: ‘This beastly stuff belongs to Frau Kwast. The Chief Pig, Max Reger, confirms it.’ (Note: an Academia.edu link also says the same thing)
  • Boston Symphony Orchestra 1994: "He struggled through an early concerto in F minor intended for Eugene d'Albert — reputedly through four complete drafts — before giving it up as a lost cause, destroying the score, and sending the title page of the manuscript to pianist Frieda Kwast-Hodapp with the inscription "An unfortunate piano concerto," to which he added the note, "This beastly thing belongs to Frau Kwast, as affirmed by the Head Beast Max Reger."
  • American Symphony Orchestra: The autograph score, which was destroyed when the offices of Reger’s publisher were bombed in 1943, is said to have included a characteristically heavy-handed dedication: “This beastly stuff belongs to Frau Kwast. The Chief Pig, Max Reger.”
Three out of the four sources above suggest that "Head Beast"/"Chief Pig" both came from Reger himself, only one apparently suggests that it came from someone else. I've also made a slight change to ALT4 to instead say "supposedly" because that's what the sources are suggesting and the actual manuscript has been lost; for the same reason I've also added an alternative wording as ALT4a. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:45, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Also, in response to the above comments, I'm still skeptical the other proposals meet the "intriguingness to a non-specialist audience" criterion, hence why I suggested an alternative here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Pageviews precedent would weigh against ALT4 as a hook (flashy titles don't do much), and ALT2 is pretty boring. Regardless, Coffeeandcrumbs, I can pretty much guarantee that Gerda's not springing for ALT4. Ain't no way. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 06:45, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @Theleekycauldron: Do you have any possible alternative hook suggestions then? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:50, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Already said my piece. ALT3a is workable, everything else isn't. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 06:56, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Gerda already stated that she doesn't like ALT3a either so it's a non-starter. Either Gerda will have to agree with ALT4 or some variant, or a totally new angle different from ALTs 0-4 will be needed here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:59, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
ALT4a is an insult. It misses that we talk about an underrated masterpiece, and only speaks about the composer's strange way of humour, and the humour lost in translation. But I'm used to DYK not wanting to pass valuable information any more. - Why would a hook about the first performer rely on knowledge about her? When she is pictured?? We seem to underrate the curiosity of our readers to learn what they don't know. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:59, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
The way I see it, you will have to agree to a hook as the nomination will be closed as successful if no agreement about a hook can be reached. ALTs 0 to 3 and their variants above are essentially non-starters for reasons stated above. If you don't like ALT4, you will need to propose a completely new angle here, or you will need to accept the nomination be closed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:06, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Giving a few more shots at proposing non-specialist hooks since ALTs 0-4 are non-starters:
ALT5 ... that Max Reger's Piano Concerto is considered to be difficult to play and is rarely performed or recorded?
ALT6 ... that Markus Becker's 2017 recording of Max Reger's Piano Concerto won him the Opus Klassik for the best concerto recording from the 19th century?
ALT7 ... that although Max Reger's Piano Concerto was first composed in 1910, it was not recorded until 1959?
I'm no longer suggesting hooks involving review quotes as, with a few notable exceptions, they have tended to underperform with our readership.
I also have some questions about the article content itself. Firstly, the article mentions Serkin's performance of the piece as "a poetic continuation of his late father’s work"; however, it does not clarify who is the "he" being referred to here and who is this late father: is the he Serkin or Botstein? In addition, I think parts of the article, particularly the "Structure and music" and "Performance and recording" sections, may need to be copyedited as I'm not sure if the wording is exactly neutral (notably the quote but also exposed the extreme sensitivity and beauty of the second movement). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:54, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for not giving up. ALT5 looks less promising than ALT6 and ALT7 because "rarely" is relative - compared to what, and in whose eyes? ALT6 misses when the concerto was composed - we can't assume people to know when Reger lived - and it has the topic rather late. ALT7 is acceptable but why miss that this very German concerto was first recorded by an American? Especially on the English Wikipedia? Which takes us back to ALT2, and its offer of an attractive image of a woman. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:47, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Theleekycauldron already objected to ALT2 above, and I agree with her that the hook will not intrigue readers who are less well-versed in the realm of classical music. I'm opposed to extending ALT7 further as time and time again has shown that adding too many extra details to hooks would drive away readership. I understand that clicks aren't everything, but statistics have shown that classical music hooks are consistently at the bottom of the view statistics, and multiple editors have observed that extremely detailed and meandering hooks rather the hooks getting straight to the point is a major factor in this. As a music fan myself, I also do not necessarily find it intriguing or unusual at this point anymore that music composed in one country is recorded in another country, even if it was the first recording. Artists recording music composed abroad is by itself no longer unusual since it happens all the time, even outside the realm of classical music. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:14, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt, can we go with ALT7? --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 03:30, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Short version; yes.
I said yes before,
Longer version: yes but why couldn't we say the part (ALT7) for the mainstream, and add something for the specialist also?
Long version: see you later, DYK. A DYK project only addressing the mainstream interests - so censored in a way - is not for me. I doubt that it is good for the readers. In resilience to that trend, Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:27, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Narutolovehinata5, you know there is a version of ALT7 that would make Gerda Arendt very happy. A version that starts with "although German composer Max Reger" and ends with "1959 by American Rudolf Serkin". What is a few more characters to make the creator happy. Would you mind suggesting it? Then I can approve ALT7 and ALT7a to let the promoter pick. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 15:18, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
I'm open to mentioning that Reger is German but I do not think the mention of Serkin is necessary. As I mentioned above, I think adding too many details would just drive readership away instead of attracting them. I also do not think the mention would add to the hook's intriguingness anyway for reasons I've already mentioned. Here's ALT7a regardless:
ALT7a:
Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:25, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
, good to go with either ALT7 and ALT7a. I even thinking adding "by American Rudolf Serkin" at the end works well and adds more intriguingness without making the hook too verbose. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 16:28, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
@Coffeeandcrumbs: Actually, I do have some concerns about the tone of the article, which I elaborated on above earlier in the discussion. Maybe those aspects could be reworded/rewritten before this is approved? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:57, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
One of the concerns was that you think the reader will have forgotten by the time that Peter Serkin is mentioned, that Rudolf Serkin had been named in the previous para as the one who played the first recording. Please suggest a way to say so that doesn't insult the reader, because I can't find one. The critic's quote about the second movement is clearly marked as such, and is not in the neutral music section but from a review of a recording. What would you need? Perhaps listen to the movement? I did, and agree with the reviewer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
The "poetic continuation" part still lacks a clarification in the article, specifically the "late father" part: whose late father? Becker mastered both the virtuoso aspects of dense chords and octave runs "mit Löwenpranken" (with a lion's pranks), but also exposed the extreme sensitivity and beauty of the second movement. This part could also perhaps be rewritten: it seems to be praising Becker in Wikivoice, when in fact this part probably needs to be attributed to a reviewer, along with quotation marks being added where needed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:14, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
Let's just rehash the "father's" thingy. Obviously you dod not understand: "you think the reader will have forgotten by the time that Peter Serkin is mentioned, that Rudolf Serkin had been named in the previous para as the one who played the first recording. Please suggest a way to say so that doesn't insult the reader, because I can't find one." What can I say? Rudolf Serkin played the first recording. One paragraph later, Peter Serkin is mentioned and his "late father". I don't see any way to clarify that this is Rudolf Serkin that doesn't imply the reader's memory is as bad as mine. I asked if you do, and no answer to that. We can't link to Rudolf, firstly because he was linked before, and secondly because we should not link from quotes.
To the critic's quote: anything in quotation marks is not Wikipedia voice. But I can attribute again in the article to please you, although I find it clunky. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
Attributed. Please note that what the critic says is not praise of Becker, but says about the concerto that it needs lions pranks, and has a second movement "of extreme sensitivity and beauty". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:07, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
I have to note that DaxServer added a citation needed tag to the article, so in any case the nomination can't be approved until that is resolved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:10, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Per above. All issues have been addressed. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 03:26, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

  • @Gerda Arendt and Coffeeandcrumbs: At the risk of irritating everyone one last time, I wanted to offer an exciting hook!
    Some may object to the fact that most readers probably have no familiarity with Busoni, but at least we've now set up a two-horse race and a bit of mystery that makes you want to click to find out more. Cielquiparle (talk) 14:07, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
    I named it ALT8. Who knows if that's the last. It's better than ALT7, in my view but who will care about my view? I struck ALT7a because the only difference is adding "German composer", and I have been asked in other context if we think our readers are stupid, and now I'd ask that question. Also: "the only real nation is humanity". ALT2 is still not struck, and I find it much more intriguing, subtly saying that a (pictured) woman played that difficult thing, and then it took decades for a man to do the same, but who will care about my view? I'd prefer - for an extra link - to have this woman, rather than Busoni's piece, but back to the beginning: it's better than ALT7. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:23, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
    ALT9: ... that Max Reger's Piano Concerto was premiered by Frieda Hodapp (pictured) in 1910, but has rarely been performed since, due to its difficulty? Cielquiparle (talk) 14:35, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
    Fine, but I still think ALT2 is more factual and more precise. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:40, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
    Personally I would have clicked on anything that said "Rudolf Serkin" in it (that's the "familiar" part of the hook), but it's only today that I understand that the piece is extraordinarily difficult to play. Anyway I'm a fellow traveller now that I've proposed ALT hooks, so I'll defer to the next uninvolved party to choose a hook and promote! Cheers. Cielquiparle (talk) 15:13, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
    Just that it was Rudolf (his father) who made that first recording, - "Peter" was my mistake ;) - but he also played it beautifully! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:34, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
    Proposing alternate wording of ALT2 as ALT2a:
After giving it more thought, my recommendation would be though to go with ALT9 (which I wrote and can't approve myself). The reason is: Apparently online piano forums are full of extremely competitive pianists who like to brag about playing difficult piano pieces (so I've been told, anyway). So the most compelling hook is to draw attention to that fact – that Reger's Piano Concerto is considered one of the most difficult concertos to play (and hence languishes as "rarely performed"). Add to that Gerda's initial point, that it was premiered by a fantastically gifted pianist who happened to be a woman, back in 1910. I think it's as good as you're going to get. Cielquiparle (talk) 05:25, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
understood, thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:28, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
Thanks Cielquiparle you certainly have some Stick–to–itiveness for working through this. Bruxton (talk) 17:05, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
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