- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: rejected by PanydThe muffin is not subtle 14:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Ming Sen Shiue
edit- ... that convicted kidnapper and rapist Ming Sen Shiue was obsessed with and fantasized about his ninth grade teacher Mary Stauffer for 15 years before he kidnapped her?
- Comment: other hooks are welcome
Created/expanded by Tuscumbia (talk). Self nom at 18:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Fine and interesting. Date, length, hook checks out. --WhiteWriter speaks 21:29, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: I agree the hook, date and length check out but am somewhat troubled that the perpetrating criminal seems to be encyclopedic enough for Wikipedia and that his still-living victim Mary Stauffer is not. Shearonink (talk) 20:23, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm, interesting. What do you propose? --WhiteWriter speaks 21:40, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think that Mary Stauffer is notable enough to get a Wikipedia article of her own, but I can't be the one to write it. Just from the little I've reviewed and read I am not the person who can do it - the details in reading over the Sen Shiue article and the references are too upsetting. It's just oftentimes in such heinous crimes the criminal's name is perpetuated and the victims receive less than their share of the public's memory. In my opinion, Mary Stauffer's story of survival along with the updated-backstory of Biernat's Stalking Mary are notable enough to have a Wikipedia article. That's all.
- Note: I would like to reiterate that the article nominated above does pass all the DYK? parameters and my thoughts on the associated persons should not be considered as a value-judgement as to its "DYK?" worthiness.Shearonink (talk) 21:56, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Shearonink, that's actually a good way and even moral way of thinking. However, I think these infamous criminals become "encyclopedia-noble" because of the nature of their crimes. Secondly, it would be hard to create article for all of the victims, because there is usually one criminal and many victims he or she abused and because you could hardly find sufficient data about the victims when it is the crimals who usually come to the spotlight right after the crimes they commit. Tuscumbia (talk) 22:01, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Mary Stauffer is one of Sen Shiue's three known victims, which included the six-year old murder victim Jason Wilkman and her own eight-year old daughter Elizabeth Stauffer (who also survived along with her mother). Mary Stauffer was also the main focus of Sen Shiue's various crimes, the other two victims were innocent bystanders who became involved by happenstance, they are perhaps not notable enough on their own. In my opinion, however, Mary Stauffer is certainly notable enough. I do apologize for mentioning these various tangential issues within your DYK? Nomination and will comment no further here. Shearonink (talk) 23:29, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Shearonink, no need to apologize at all. I agree that this specific victim deserves notability for the specific nature of this crime. I wouldn't mind creating an article about her, if such examples exist in Wikipedia and provided there is information available about her life. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:27, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Mary Stauffer is one of Sen Shiue's three known victims, which included the six-year old murder victim Jason Wilkman and her own eight-year old daughter Elizabeth Stauffer (who also survived along with her mother). Mary Stauffer was also the main focus of Sen Shiue's various crimes, the other two victims were innocent bystanders who became involved by happenstance, they are perhaps not notable enough on their own. In my opinion, however, Mary Stauffer is certainly notable enough. I do apologize for mentioning these various tangential issues within your DYK? Nomination and will comment no further here. Shearonink (talk) 23:29, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Shearonink, that's actually a good way and even moral way of thinking. However, I think these infamous criminals become "encyclopedia-noble" because of the nature of their crimes. Secondly, it would be hard to create article for all of the victims, because there is usually one criminal and many victims he or she abused and because you could hardly find sufficient data about the victims when it is the crimals who usually come to the spotlight right after the crimes they commit. Tuscumbia (talk) 22:01, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Returning to the noms page from prep because the article makes me uneasy. So much detail on the crimes, told in a breathless style (long sentences and few paragraph breaks), based heavily on the court document. Particularly considering that the victims are living people, I'd like to see a bit more encyclopedia-style polish before this goes to the main page. --Orlady (talk) 00:43, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Can someone take action on this since it's been here for a month now? Thank you in advance. Tuscumbia (talk) 18:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Significant errors:
Article before my copyedit: "When Shiue told Stauffer he was her student 15 years ago, he indicated she had given him a grade B in Algebra which caused his not being able to get enrolled at a college and being sent to Vietnam War where he became a POW."
Source: "During Respondent's initial conversation with M.S. he refused to tell her his name. M.S. eventually guessed that Respondent was a former student. Respondent told M.S. that she gave him a B in algebra and that as a result of this grade he had been unable to get a scholarship to college and had been forced to join the Army. Respondent told M.S. that he was sent to Viet Nam where he was captured and became a prisoner of War. Respondent also indicated to M.S. that he was angry at her because she had not shown any interest in a mathematical theorem he had discovered in high school and because she did not recognize him when they had run into each other after he had graduated from high school."The vast majority of Respondent's statements to M.S. were outrageous lies. Respondent did not enlist in the army as a result of a poor grade from M.S.; he was never in Viet Nam and was not a prisoner of war. instead, Respondent had been voted "Most Likely to Succeed" by his high school peers, had been accepted into college at the University of Minnesota where he attended college for two years before dropping out and at the time of the abduction was a successful businessman. Respondent apparently lied to M.S. in an attempt to make her feel bad for him and to believe that the B she had given him in math had had a devastating effect on his life."
Error by omission: The article does not clarify that Shiue was lying about his having to enlist in the army because he was unable to receive a college scholarship. The reader might mistakenly believe that he was telling the truth if the article does not make it clear that he was lying.
Factual error: M.S. discovered who he was ("During Respondent's initial conversation with M.S. he refused to tell her his name. M.S. eventually guessed that Respondent was a former student."); he did not tell her ("When Shiue told Stauffer he was her student 15 years ago").
Please check the article for accuracy. Cunard (talk) 01:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
