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Template:Did you know nominations/Herb Wong

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 04:30, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Herb Wong

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  • ... that zoologist Herb Wong wrote the liner notes for over 600 jazz albums?Source: Vaziri, Aidin (25 April 2014). "Herb Wong, leading Bay Area jazz expert, dies at 88". San Francisco Chronicle. Retrieved 6 July 2022. When he returned to the States, Mr. Wong enrolled at UC Berkeley, pursuing bachelor and doctoral degrees in zoology. and Batti, Renee (8 May 2014). "The beat goes on: An appreciation of Dr. Wong". The Almanac Online. Retrieved 6 July 2022. ...during his career he wrote notes for more than 600 jazz recordings...

Created by Vladimir.copic (talk). Self-nominated at 05:28, 6 July 2022 (UTC).

  • The hook says he was a zoologist, but there is nothing about his career in the field, it only says he trained as a zoologist, not that he ever practiced as one. That needs to be fixed. Gatoclass (talk) 13:01, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks Gatoclass. I did consider this myself but wanted to keep the hook punchy. I’ve added information about Wong being a field ornithologist taken from this source. We could always use the following amended hook (or ALT1) instead:
ALT0b ... that trained zoologist Herb Wong wrote the liner notes for over 600 jazz albums? Vladimir.copic (talk) 22:20, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
ALT0b is not an improvement IMO. Another issue is that there is no mention of his work in environmental education or the fact that he received several awards for this work. That looks like a rather major omission to me. Gatoclass (talk) 09:11, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
This is a very high standard for DYK nom. It's also slightly uncalled for to strike something because its not an improvement IMO. There is mention in the article of his science books and some awards he has won but he is best known (as reflected in all sources) for his work with jazz music. It would be WP:UNDUE to focus too heavily on his educational career. I am also reluctant to pull too much from the Profile in Excellence source as it's pretty much a self published book by a local Chinese society that makes a number of conspicuous errors not least getting the name of his flagship radio show wrong and claiming his MA was from UC Berkeley (it was from SJSU). A similar - but more boring - hook is below. The theme is the same, a guy with an unrelated day job/training made a big contribution to jazz music and its promotion.
ALT0c... that school teacher Herb Wong wrote the liner notes for over 600 jazz albums? Vladimir.copic (talk) 11:14, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay, if you think the source in question is a tad ropey, that's different. It just seemed to me to be very odd to completely fail to mention what was reportedly a pretty important part of his career. And yes, I understand that he is principally notable for his contribution to the world of jazz, but the problem was that there was no mention of what he actually taught in the various educational facilities - people don't always teach in their field of formal study, and a reader might be forgiven for assuming that he was giving lectures in jazz, for example.

Having said that, the issue I originally raised has been addressed, so that is resolved. There is another issue however - both the hook and article state that he wrote the liner notes for some 600 jazz albums, but the sole source provided gives Wong himself as the source of this number. While it's very likely accurate, Wong doesn't count as an independent source for his own career achievements, so it would be more appropriate to say something like "by his own account" or some such. Gatoclass (talk) 13:59, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I see above that I struck the "trained zoologist" hook again - I meant to leave that to a later edit as my previous post was already rather long. Since it's done now though, I'll explain my reasoning on that since you reverted earlier. Firstly, "trained" is redundant. A zoologist is just a zoologist, one doesn't have to say they are "trained" as one, any more than one says "trained doctor" or "trained policeman". Also, adding "trained" implies that the person in question only trained as such and never actually worked in the field, which is not the case here. Hopefully you will now concur, my apologies for the mix-up. Gatoclass (talk) 14:17, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

  • Initial review. Nice addition to Wikipedia. Article is new enough (submitted within one day of creation), long enough, well sourced, with no copyvio issues per Earwig. QPQ is done. Regarding the hook, to address the sourcing concern raised by @Gatoclass:, I wanted to suggest the ALT variation of the original hook:
  • ALT0d ... that by his own count, zoologist Herb Wong wrote the liner notes for over 600 jazz albums?
  • ALT0e ... that zoologist Herb Wong wrote the liner notes for over 600 jazz albums by his own count?

@Vladimir.copic:: Sound good? Can we move this along now? Personally I do prefer the 600+ jazz albums hooks, and I like zoologist over school teacher (and possibly even ornithologist over zoologist, but that would require rewording the whole hook). Cielquiparle (talk) 08:21, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

@Cielquiparle: Thanks for the review. Happy with either of the hooks with a preference for ALT0e as it front loads the interesting fact. Vladimir.copic (talk) 02:02, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
@Vladimir.copic:: I was just about to approve this but wanted your feedback on one more variation, this time to the Duke Ellington hook (which I think is actually quite compelling with a bit more context). What do you think of:
@Cielquiparle: Happy with both ALT0e and ALT1a. Thanks again. Vladimir.copic (talk) 06:10, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Nomination approved (per review above) using hooks ALT0e or ALT1a. Cielquiparle (talk) 06:33, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Cielquiparle proposed ALT0e and ALT1a, so this will need a new reviewer (just for those hooks) before this can move forward. Z1720 (talk) 21:59, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
Thanks Z1720. I understood that for minor hook modifications like this, it could be enough if I just checked with the original nominator (per the DYK Talk page), but always happy to have more eyes on hooks, etc. To clarify for the next reviewer: hook ALT0e simply implements a modification recommended by earlier hook reviewer Gatoclass, while ALT1a simply adds the words "teacher" and "out of his own pocket", per the following source cited: Source: "A Life in Jazz: Remembering Dr. Herb Wong, 1926-2014". KQED. 1 May 2014. ...he famously booked the Duke Ellington Orchestra to perform for Berkeley school children in 1969, Wong paid the band out of his own pocket, because the school district wouldn't fund their appearance. Cielquiparle (talk) 01:56, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
@Cielquiparle: Thanks for your understanding. I might have been too hasty with calling for a new reviewer, but it is better to be safe than sorry. I placed this in the old reviewers list so hopefully it will be picked up soon. If not, ping me and I'll take a look. Z1720 (talk) 02:00, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
I'm fine with any of the recently proposed ALTs (0d, 0e and 1a). Thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 11:25, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
Thanks so much for your feedback, Gatoclass. @Z1720:: Could you please re-approve with the green tick mark? Cielquiparle (talk) 12:52, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
I am going to boldly assume that Gatoclass approved the ALTs, and readd the tick. If this is not the case, feel free to remove the tick. Z1720 (talk) 13:10, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
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