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Template:Did you know nominations/Franz Seraph von Kohlbrenner

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:53, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

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Franz Seraph von Kohlbrenner

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F. S. von Kohlbrenner
F. S. von Kohlbrenner

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 14:27, 7 May 2018 (UTC).

*New enough, long enough.
  • I am unable to check the German sources, but it looks well-cited--except for one CN tag I added.
  • No copyright violation detected. Sounds neutral.
  • The hook is interesting, short enough and catchy. However, the article does not mention "Latin." This needs to be made explicit in the article, and possibly in the lede too.
  • I think the inscription should be translated into English for our readers.
  • The image is copyright-free (1760).Zigzig20s (talk) 05:37, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Thank you! I added the ref, and asked Moonraker for an idiomatic translation of the old German. Will look for the Latin. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:45, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Please look again, Zigzig20s. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
OK. Zigzig20s (talk) 22:05, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
ALT1: ... that Franz Seraph von Kohlbrenner (pictured), a civil servant at the Bavarian court, published a hymnal that contained the mass ordinary in German? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:57, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing this. starship.paint ~ KO 01:22, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

  • First up, I can't access [4] "Manfred Knedlik 2007." - so it would be good to get a quote from that source, even if it's in German, because the source is only used once anyway.
  • Neither Johann nor Rupert Kohlbrenner are in the [1] Westermayer, Georg 1882. source.
  • An accident in 1732 left him handicapped. - source?
  • After attending the local Volksschule, - according to Google Translate of [1] Westermayer, Georg 1882. source, it seems that he didn't attend high school, which is the opposite of this text?
  • worked as an assistant clerk at the salt works. He was promoted to clerk, responsible for the company's archives - source? Apologies if the Google Translate had a wrong translation.
  • by Maximilian III Joseph, Elector of Bavaria - source?
  • In 1762, he installed a tree garden in the elector's Aerarium in Lechhausen. He influenced the schooling system, agriculture, singing in church, and new technical and medical developments. - source?

Pausing at these point. starship.paint ~ KO 04:49, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I translated from the German Wikipedia which doesn't believe in inline citation. I don't have access to the books they used, sorry. One of them is a contemporary biography, [1]. "Volksschule" is "Elementary school", so I don't see a problem. The king was the ruler at the time, - we could say it in passive voice, if that's better for you. Generally: we can drop the items without citation, or this whole thing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:44, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I would need at least your assurance that anything in the text is sourced. If they can be sourced to the Bavarica biography, I will take it at your word. But if there is no apparent source, I cannot approve the text, it would have to be removed. The German article does not seem to be reviewed like Good Article or Featured Article so I cannot take it that quality is assured. Whether to keep this whole DYK nomination is up to you. starship.paint ~ KO 07:27, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
  • As for the king point, if the source doesn't bother to mention the king, I don't think we need to either. starship.paint ~ KO 07:28, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
The German Wikipedia has GAs and FAs, but this one is not one of them. I can't read the Bavarian thing, nor the other, it's a matter of trust. I'll make some tweaks, but have little patience, sorry ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:36, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
done --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:51, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Okay. Based on the above outstanding issues, I have deleted some if the apparently uncited content. Feel free to restore them with sourcing. Also, could you translate fand er früh schon in der Schreibstube des letzteren Verwendung und erwarb sich durch seinen rastlosen Fleiß bedeutende technische und archivalische Kenntnisse for me? starship.paint ~ KO 02:40, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
"... he was soon used in the Schreibstube (office? where they wrote, don't know exact English term) of the latter, and gained (here we miss what he gained because you the sentence, let's say "admiration", "recognition") for his restless industriousness and knowledge in archive matters."
As I said before: this is DYK, we have to cite contentious facts, not every fact. This is not FA, and not even there you have to cite every fact. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:32, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I do realize I am being strict but I believe I am abiding to WP:V. For example, his date of death is reported in sources as 6 June, but the article says 4 June. starship.paint ~ KO 03:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I looked through all the available sources and I couldn't find anything to support these. They will have to be cited or removed. starship.paint ~ KO 03:56, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
  • When the cemetery was dissolved, his monument was moved to near the Ecce-Homo-Altar in the Frauenkirche, destroyed in World War II.
Not essential for his life. You can remove it if you think it's contentious. --GA
  • ... which appear in regional parts of the Catholic hymnal Gotteslob of 2013. (Kirchengesangbuch source mentions "Gotteslob" but not in relation to him?)
In the regional part of Austria, it's GL 710, ref added. It's often simply Haydn-Messe, without mentioning him, example [2], see de:Liste der Gesänge im Eigenteil der (Erz-)Diözesen Österreichs. - Another ref could be this, but it's rather for experts only (which doesn't include me). --GA
  • His home town named its Hauptschule after him.
Not essential for his life. You can remove it if you think it's contentious. --GA
  • Also, the promoting the Enlightenment in Bavaria in the lede has to be mentioned in the body and sourced. I found "Aufklärung" in this link. starship.paint ~ KO 04:18, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
I don't agree. Promoting Enlightenment IS the summary of the single things he did, - in the source the same. It's also here, will add that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:14, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Sorry. The Enlightenment is not my area of expertise. Good edits. starship.paint ~ KO 09:06, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I may have found the school here. I have added it to the article. starship.paint ~ KO 09:06, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • About the image, I'm curious, can "Webseite Kohlbrenner" be linked? It is after all, a website. I cannot find it. starship.paint ~ KO 09:15, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
I have nothing to do with that pic, which is in sources also, and old enough to be "free". - Thank you for finding the school. "Aufklärung": see in "Kirchenlied": "Das Bistum Salzburg hatte die Möglichkeit, eigene Gesangstraditionen weiterzupflegen, übernahm aber mit dem Landshuter Gesangbuch aus dem Jahr 1777 ebenso aufklärerisches K.gut mit Werken von Denis und Riedel." (The Diocese of Salzburg could have stayed with its own singing traditions, but instead took over songs in the spirit of Enlightenment in using the Landshut hymnal (Landshuter Gesangbuch aus dem Jahr 1777, Kohlbrenner's that is) with works by Denis and Riedel.) While just two names are mentioned, the whole hymnal is in that spirit. Another song in that spirit is Stille Nacht. (same source) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
External links, [3], also found [4] for the school, seems to have been upgraded to middle school ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:03, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Okay, that's great! Everything is now settled. starship.paint ~ KO 02:43, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Good to go with ALT1 - new and long enough, follows policy, hook is fine, picture is fine, QPQ is done. starship.paint ~ KO 02:43, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

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