Template:Did you know nominations/Death by Chocolate

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Jolly Ω Janner 07:54, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Death by Chocolate

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Chocolate lava cake, a Death by Chocolate dish

~~... that various Death by Chocolate events have occurred that involve the consumption of chocolate-based dishes and desserts?~~

Reviewed: Edith Irby Jones

5x expanded by Northamerica1000 (talk). Self-nominated at 08:02, 27 December 2015 (UTC).

Meets core content policies, ~~but I am not sure if it is sufficiently expanded, as a lot of content was removed a few months ago, and, counting that content, this is not 5x.~~ I would be inclined to IAR, but will ask at WT:DYK. In the meantime, I think we can do better with the hook. What about: ALT1: ~~... that US president Barack Obama ordered Death by Chocolate in October 2014?~~ --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 17:50, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Apparently, that is okay after all. Still awaiting your thoughts on the hook. --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 18:51, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

@Jakec: I prefer the initial hook about events. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 18:36, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Rejected hooks

I also thought the hook was a little flat, perhaps due to the "show me, don't tell me" rule. How about:
ALT2: ~~... that savory dishes prepared with chocolate, cakes, cocktails, Martinis and beer have all been consumed at Death by Chocolate events?~~ Yoninah (talk) 13:10, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

@Yoninah: Here's an alt below that is based upon your alt2 above. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:50, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

ALT3 ~~... that Death by Chocolate events have included foods prepared with chocolate, such as savory dishes, cakes, cocktails, Martinis and beer?~~

Well, saying that "Death by Chocolate events have included foods prepared with chocolate" is obvious, isn't it? Why don't you move away from narrative into descriptive? I think you could do a lot with a hook about "Death by Chocolate". Yoninah (talk) 14:21, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

ALT4: ~~... that Death by Chocolate is a colloquial descriptive or marketing term for various desserts that feature chocolate?~~ North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 15:19, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, ALT4 is even more dry. People might be surprised to learn that chocolate martinis and chocolate beers are a thing, but I can't come up with good wording for it myself. --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 15:29, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

ALT5:~~... that President Obama shared a Death by Chocolate cake (similar example pictured) with the crew of Air Force One?~~ North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 15:33, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Now we're going somewhere. Perhaps we can be a bit more mysterious/tricky and say ALT6: ~~... that President Obama shared Death by Chocolate with the crew of Air Force One?~~ So that people will wonder what "Death by Chocolate" is, and click on it. --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 15:38, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not into ALT6, because the wording could then be interpreted as a supposed violent act aboard the aircraft, and on Main page no less; "shared" followed by "death", without explanation. This is essentially why I also don't approve of ALT1; negative implications on Main page. I'm aight with ALT5, though. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 15:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

That's the joke - everyone will think it's something shocking, and click on it to find out what the heck happened, and then realize that it's actually pretty benign (and then laugh, if they have a strong sense of humor). I've tried similar tricks myself and gotten decent views. Sometimes a little ambiguity and hidden meaning make hooks hookier. --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 15:50, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

@Jakec: I'd prefer the hook to focus more upon the actual overall topic, rather than fooling readers in this manner. But that's just me. At this point, I like ALT5, because it includes the POTUS and Air Force One in relation to the topic, but without any shenanigans. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 15:51, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Jakec, but I understand Northamerica1000's reservations. Let's go with ALT5; readers will surely click on the link wanting to know what a "Death by Chocolate cake" is. ALT5 hook ref verified and cited inline. Full review: 5x expansion verified. New enough, long enough, well referenced, neutrally written, no close paraphrasing seen. QPQ done. ALT5 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 17:52, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

BTW I'd run this in the quirky slot, without the image. As it is, the caption is too long. Yoninah (talk) 17:54, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Chocolate lava cake, a Death by Chocolate dish

The image doesn't need to be omitted; it's a quality image. Instead it can be abbreviated to something such as "Chocolate lava cake, a Death by Chocolate dish". Why limit the entry as such, when the caption can be easily copy edited? Furthermore, the caption is verified in the article with a reliable source. This type of limitation makes no sense to me. See a revised version at right. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 18:35, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

OK by me. I was just trying to increase the hookiness of the hook by omitting the image. But whatever the prep promoter decides. Yoninah (talk) 09:58, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Save the cake for use on Presidents' Day? --PFHLai (talk) 19:48, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

@Northamerica1000: your edit to ALT5, spelling out "large Death by Chocolate cake (smaller example pictured)" is really unnecessary, IMO. The original hook, just calling it a cake, was much more hooky. If you spell everything out, no one will want to click on it. I'm printing your different revisions below so the reviewer can see all of them. Yoninah (talk) 16:36, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I have removed ALT5b that was re-posted below from the revision history (diff, diff), because I devised it, didn't want to go with it, and removed it. I have renamed the former ALT5a below to ALT7 (diff). North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 14:01, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

ALT7: ... that President Obama shared a Death by Chocolate cake (smaller example pictured) with the crew of Air Force One?

This was approved by User:Yoninah above, and I think ALT7 is a decent hook. I had originally worded it this way (with "smaller example pictured"), but reverted, and upon consideration, it provides more accuracy compared to "similar example pictured" as in ALT5. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 13:35, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree, I like ALT7, I just think showing a smaller cake and then emphasizing that's a smaller cake detracts from the effect. I think it belongs in the quirky slot. Yoninah (talk) 14:19, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

@Northamerica1000: are you interested in saving this for Presidents Day on February 16, or do you want it to run sooner? Yoninah (talk) 14:24, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Don't care. I actually wanted the hook to emphasize the cake, rather than a famous person who bought one, but it didn't work out above. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 14:25, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Look, the hook is not set in stone. We could try other hooks. Just try to stay away from narrative (X is Y). Here's another idea:
ALT8: ... that a Death by Chocolate dessert purveyed by Bennigan's included two types of ice cream mixed with Twix candy bars, dipped in a chocolate sauce and served on a crumbed chocolate cookie crust?
ALT9: ... that lava cake (pictured) is a classic Death by Chocolate dessert? Yoninah (talk) 14:37, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't really care at this point. It's been my experience that the longer these threads get, the longer they sit, and sit, and sit, without being promoted. At this point, I've spend around the same amount of time on this nomination as I did expanding the article, so I'll defer to whatever a promoter wants to go with. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 14:40, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

I can confirm that ALT8 and ALT9 are supported by the article and the sources. Streamlining ALT9 might be worth a try:
ALT10: ... that lava cake (pictured) is Death by Chocolate? --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 14:50, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Nice, @Jakec:. But now we need another reviewer to approve ALT10. Yoninah (talk) 15:58, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

And it goes on, and on, and on...17 days and counting. The alts are fine, but I prefer for matters to go through in a more timely manner. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 16:02, 13 January 2016 (UTC)