Template:Did you know nominations/Banda people

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:26, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Banda people

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Ethnic origins of the Banda people

~~... that the Banda people are an ethnic group in central Africa who suffered so much during slave-trading, that Banda is synonymous with being a slave?~~ Source: "These tribes [Nuba, Banda, Gumuz] have suffered so hard from the slave-trade by the Turco-Egyptians and the Arabs that even in the present their names remain synonyms for slave." (page 197, G. P. Makris, Northwestern University Press)

Reviewed: Electro-Dynamic Light Company
Comment: The article was almost entirely WP:Copyvio/WP:Plagiarism and a stub between November 2007 and October 17 2016. The copyvio has been removed and it has been rewritten as a part of the initiative WikiProject Africa/The Africa Destubathon.

5x expanded by Ms Sarah Welch (talk). Self-nominated at 16:03, 19 October 2016 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: "Wadai" (disambig). Worthwhile article - thank you! Correct the disambig and it's good to go. Storye book (talk) 11:20, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

@Storye book: Thanks. Wadai is now diasamb'ed. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:19, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Sarah Welch. Storye book (talk) 12:25, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi, I came by to promote this, but find close paraphrasing from the BBC source:
Source: hamlets of dispersed homesteads under the local governance of a headman.
Article: hamlets of dispersed homesteads guided by a headman.
Source: Banda craftsmen produce carved wooden ritual and utilitarian objects
Article: The ethnic group is locally famous for craftsmanship, specifically carved wooden ritual and utilitarian objects
Yoninah (talk) 00:44, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

@Yoninah:: You mean Britannica source, not BBC. It was the only cite in the old version, before I began de-stubbing that article, and "hamlets of..." was there. I removed much copyvio with my first edit, rephrased a lot but a bit slipped, I should have caught that. I have gone through the two above and every other cite to Britannica, and scrubbed the article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:12, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Thank you! Yoninah (talk) 09:28, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Yoninah and Sarah Welch. I can confirm that the copyvio quoted above has now been removed. Storye book (talk) 07:53, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Returned from prep per discussion at WT:DYK. Aside from the POV language, which could be fixed, the first source cited for the hook fact, the G.P. Makris source mentions nothing about the word or its meaning, and the other 2 sources only discuss the word's meaning in the Persian language. Yoninah (talk) 13:33, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

@Yoninah: How so? Did you miss the source above, or the third paragraph on page 197 linked above. It is not POV, because that "suffered so hard from the slave-trade..." is what the source states. The Makris source is WP:RS. It does mention "the word and its meaning (of slave)" there. The second and third sources confirm the Makris source. Yes, I too would strongly favor a less emotive language on wikipedia's main page, but if you want to stick with what the source states, that is what it is. I am open to alternate hook suggestion, or withdrawing this nomination if appropriate. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:42, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Well. After reading the Makris page three times and not finding anything, I realize that the URL is directing to page 198, not page 197. I fixed the URL. But Makris only says "Banda" is synonymous with "slave" in a general way, while the other 2 footnotes specifically reference the Persian language. I went ahead and changed the sentence in the article. Here is what I propose:
ALT1: ~~... that the Banda people of central Africa were so often sold as slaves that the word Banda means "slave" in the Persian language?~~ Yoninah (talk) 21:38, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

I still prefer the original hook, because it uses the phrase "is synonymous with" instead of the word "means." (I don't object to ALT1 adding "in the Persian language.") My preference for the "synonymous" bit is that it allows an understanding that "means" does not. A parallel might be the UK 18th century usage of "actress" in which the word was synomymous with "prostitute" at that time. I.e. it was understood in those days that an actress was probably a prostitute besides being an actress; it did not mean that the word "actress" was used for prostitutes who did not work in the theatre. Similarly, I understand that if "Banda" is synonymous with being a slave, then if you are Banda then people may think that you are likely to have slave connections, but that slaves who are not Banda people are not called "Banda". So if I am correct about this interpretation, maybe we could have a composite or a different ALT? Storye book (talk) 23:15, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

No problem.
ALT2: ~~... that the Banda people of central Africa were so often sold as slaves that the word Banda is synonymous with "slave" in the Persian language?~~
Please don't approve this until Ms Sarah Welch comments on it. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 00:10, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

The claim in the source is very likely incorrect. The root band- in eastern Indo-European languages already meant prisoner, millennia before the 19th century slave trade described in this article. For example, bandii is the Sanskrit word for prisoner. The word bandaka meaning slave is already attested in Old Persian and known by scholars to be the ancestor of the modern Persian word. Reference. Taknaran (talk) 00:48, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

ALT3 ... that the Banda people of central Africa relieved war chiefs of their powers after each crisis was over?

ALT4 ~~... that the Banda people of central Africa are famous for carving wooden slit drums (pictured) in the shape of animals?~~

(The drum looks so very cool. If the picture is suitable for the main page, it might make a good basis for a hook. ) Taknaran (talk) 00:54, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, Taknaran. Yoninah (talk) 00:55, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

@Taknaran: I am pretty fluent with Sanskrit and several other IE languages. Avestan does have banda- as fetter/attach/bind, while *bhendh- as "bind" is indeed PIE, but you are doing OR and inverting the etymological roots here. Banda is label these people in Central Africa got, just like the labels for people in South Asia etc given in Persian literature, which are now widely used. Anyway, we shouldn't be doing OR-Synthesis in wikipedia. ALT3 is a strange hook, difficult to understand, "what each crisis"; it does some OR too. I struck it off. ALT4 is better than ALT3, but slit-drums were made by many ethnic groups and we need to be careful in not implying more, so please see ALT7.

@Yoninah: your suggestion is okay with me. I prefer the following shorter ALT5 though:

ALT5: ~~... that the Banda people of Central Africa were so often enslaved that the word Banda is synonymous with "slave" in the Persian language?~~
ALT6: ~~... that the Banda people of Central Africa were often raided and enslaved during the colonial era?~~

Yangere slit drum

ALT7: ... that the Banda people of Central Africa carved wooden slit drums (example pictured) in the shape of animals?

Thanks, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:13, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. I have struck ALT4 in favor of your ALT7, which I really like as an image hook. I also struck ALT2 in favor of your ALT5, and ALT6 because it is more narrative than hooky. Calling on another reviewer to sign off on ALT5 and/or ALT7. Storye book? Yoninah (talk) 02:22, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Hey Ms Sarah, you are looking at the wrong line in the source. It says Persian bandeh comes from Old Persian bandaka, nothing to do with Banda people and far predating their enslavement in the 19th century. Avestan is a separate branch and so is not relevant. Glad the drum hook is working for you. Taknaran (talk) 05:22, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

@Taknaran: You are assuming or inadvertently doing the OR, "their enslavement in the 19th century". Slavery by Arabs/North Africans in Africa goes back in Islam's earliest centuries. Slavery of the Banda people and many other African ethnic groups goes back far before the 19th-century. The second tree in the word map reference you linked, the bandaka part only confirms the term evolved from Bhendh "to bind", and came to mean slave quite early in the Persian language. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 11:08, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining, I see better where you are coming from. Could you put that in the article, which at the moment only says the Banda were enslaved in the 19th century. I looked at your references, but Makris does not gives a date for his reference to "enslavement by the Turco-Egyptians", which is nevertheless a term scholars use for 19th-century Sudan. The two other references in the article only give the Persian word for slave and say nothing about its etymology.
I am still bothered that a Persian etymological dictionary directly contradicts Makris's claim, which only makes sense if the Banda people were enslaved in large numbers before 300 BC (given the attestation of the word in Old Persian). Makris's argument also therefore contradicts the article's assertion that the Banda led a peaceful life before their 19th century enslavement. Do please add your source for their enslavement 2,000 years earlier. Taknaran (talk) 12:01, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

@Taknaran: Did you miss my note above that you may be inverting the etymological roots, or how Banda people came to be known Banda? If you know reliable sources with theories about the etymology behind the name "Banda people", please summarize it to the article. I do not think this nom page or even the article's talk page is the appropriate page to forum-y debate your personal wisdom / confusion / opinions. No OR nor forum-like discussion is appropriate. Let us just summarize what the sources are stating. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:15, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you everybody. In the light of the new information above, I agree that ALT7 is safest, and and that it is also an interesting hook - and I like the drum image. I have checked the image and it is free. Reference 1 confirms the hook.Storye book (talk) 08:35, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

@Storye book: Thanks. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 11:08, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Added a second image from the article which may be clearer in terms of its animal shape. Yoninah (talk) 13:11, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Yoninah. I am happy that either of the slit drum images would be fine for the ALT7 hook, and both are free. Storye book (talk) 13:17, 31 October 2016 (UTC)