Talk:Xarnego

Incredibly stupid comment

(... incredibly stupid comment that has been erased but I'll leave the replies intact ...) Walter Sobchak0 (talk) 15:10, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Two members of my family were killed because they made a conference in catalan, near the Casa Batlló, in Barcelona. How can you say that the prosecution wasn't so hard? I can't imagine a harder persecution...

Valencian is a dialect of catalan, not backward as you say, oh my god, you don't know nothing, did you ever went to school?

The ONLY historical LANGUAGE of Catalonia is the CATALAN. Its historical. But Franco tried to change it, and he almost reached his objective. Almost.

Please, make us a present. Take a book and read it. If you know how to do it. Blaverista da merda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.24.152.204 (talk) 20:50, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Anonymous commentor, Catalonia predates Spain by many, many centuries. You said, "labelling your restaurant, shop or another business, in a language other than Catalonian is forbidden" which is a complete falsehood. There are endless business entities that are old with Castellano names as well as new ones that have Basque, French, English and other names. I would nearly feel sorry for people like you who just repeat what PP tells them, but in reality, you're causing a tremendous deal of cultural harm to Spain, which could easily survive with all its autonomous regions were it not for this right-wing nationalist rhetoric. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Primecoordinator (talk • contribs) 18:45, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Catalan is not the primary language spoken in Catalonia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.209.100.34 (talk) 08:51, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

anonymous commentor, Catalan is a language based on Valencian language. We could discuss if Catalan is a dialect of Valencian, but Valencian language was born before normalisation of Catalan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.61.167.35 (talk) 16:25, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Curzio MALAPARTE, La pelle

I have never loved a woman, a brother, a friend, so much as I loved Febo. There was an affinity between us. It was in his honor that I wrote the tender pages of Un cane come me. He was a noble creature, the noblest I have ever come across in my life. He belonged to that breed of greyhounds -- a rare and delicate breed today -- which came long ago from the shores of Asia with the first Ionic immigrants, and which are known to the shepherds of Lipari as cerneghi.

Curzio MALAPARTE, La pelle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.0.31.132 (talk) 18:23, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Again, bias, not npov

As usual for the user, is forging content and biasing articles. Reverting to last edition before the edits in the same line as many others already deleted, by same reasons. --Panotxa (talk) 05:53, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Biased how? Its sourced. The fact that you don't like sourced information due to your political views is not really a strong argument.Sonrisas1 (talk) 06:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Panotxa please avoid blanking this article

Particularly based on your political views. It is fully sourced. If you have information to add, please do so, so long as it is properly sourced. Sonrisas1 (talk) 06:47, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Again, forging information, against NPOV, synthesis. The whole Historical context section is based in non-existing references and the only one (Naïk Miret's) doesn't even use the words Xarnego or Charnego. The whole Usage of term and discrimination during the 20th century section is based in references that doesn't even use the words Xarnego or Charnego. The section Decline and contemporary relevance is synthesis, and using again blogs. Everything already talked and solved in Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Catalan Racism and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catalan supremacism, so please don't insist in the same issues. --Panotxa (talk) 07:04, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

There is no SYNTH involved just your own political POV warrior attitude. Please look up what WP:SYNTH means. You have deleted 16 sources all discussing the history of Charnegos in Catalonia and all explicitly using the term Charnego. It is political activist blanking and pretty much vandalism. I will give you the opportunity to self-revert. Sonrisas1 (talk) 08:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

• BBC's Catalans grapple with migrant influx doesn't use the words charnego/xarnego, it's about foreign immigration
• Hoyos2014 is non-existing
• Ajeno i Cosp, 1993 is non-existing
• Naïk Miret's doesn't use the words charnego/xarnego
• Arcadi Espada's Andaluces de Pujol doesn't even use the words charnego/xarnego, it's about immigration. Anyway, non-scholar opinion
• Jordi Pujol's La inmigración, problema y esperanza de Cataluña doesn't even use the words charnego/xarnego, it's about immigration
• La Vanguardia's Jordi Pujol alaba el arraigo en Catalunya de los inmigrantes andaluces y extremeños doesn't even use the words charnego/xarnego
• La Vanguardia's Los apellidos más frecuentes en Catalunya doesn't even use the words charnego/xarnego. It's about people's names
• La Vanguardia's La endogamia de las élites nacionalistas: 400 apellidos copan el 40% de la política catalana doesn't even use the words charnego/xarnego.
• RTVE's A la esposa de Pujol le molesta que Montilla sea un andaluz con el nombre en castellano doesn't even use the words charnego/xarnego
• Clua i Fainé's Catalanes, inmigrantes y charnegos... states Son situaciones de negación de los derechos que no siempre se deben a contextos de migración reciente ni se aplican sólo a los inmigrantes (page 62), which is absolutely inconsistent with the alleged statement such mechanisms of exclusion have returned to Catalonia leading to a new wave of internal immigration which occurred during the 1990s, that I can't find in the work mentioned.
• León Gross El supremacismo nacionalista hasta los apellidos doesn't even use the words charnego/xarnego. Anyway, non-scholar opinion. Anyway, all this theory is based in 8 surnames that are given to less than 10% of the total of catalan citicens (see https://www.idescat.cat/cognoms/)
• Jordi Galves's Cornellà no és com Catalunya doesn't even use the words charnego/xarnego. Anyway, non-scholar opinion
• Maria Zuil's “Nos llaman colonos pero Cornellà representa más a Cataluña que Berga o Vic”doesn't even use the words charnego/xarnego.

So no sources even uses the word that names the article. So forging information, against NPOV, synthesis. --Panotxa (talk) 11:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Etymology

There seems to be divergence in sources on etymology. Some say it was originally used in France to refer to Catalans others in Catalonia to refer to French. Would be good to clarify.Sonrisas1 (talk) 14:53, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Reverting to the short version

Per Panotxa in the section above, not one of the sources in the expanded article discussed the term "Xarnego". That version was not an encyclopaedia article on the term, but an essay on relations between two linguistic communities, and a particularly POV essay at that. I can find no reference in even semi-reliable sources in English, Spanish or Catalan to the word becoming popular again recently (except for a couple of items about Gabriel Rufián self-identifying as one). I have reverted to the brief, encyclopaedic and NPOV version that was there from 2008 until two months ago, but incorporated any improvements that were made during those two months. Scolaire (talk) 17:24, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I have sources [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. search Xarnego or charnego on social networks so that you realize that is still much alive the expression.--ILoveCaracas (talk) 05:29, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

The thing to do if you have sources is to take the properly sourced version and then add a concise paragraph about its modern use, not just blindly restore the mass of off-topic content that I deleted for good encyclopaedic reasons given above, and Panotxa also deleted, also giving good reasons. For instance, this edit changed the first sentence back to the nonsensical "Xarnego...[is a term used] to refer to economic migrants from other typically poorer regions of Spain such as Andalusia or Extremadura. in their place of origin) from other parts of Spain. Can you see how absolutely nonsensical that is? It is a sentence that has been chopped up and stuck back together with bits left out and bits repeated. But you put it back without even looking to see if it's a good sentence.

The "Historical context", "Usage of term and discrimination during the 20th century" and "Contemporary relevance" sections are not about the term "Xarnego" at all. They are POV-laden discussions of "Catalan racism" or "Catalan supremacy" of the kind that were peddled in two articles that were deleted – see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catalan supremacism and Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Catalan Racism. They cite plenty of sources, suggesting that these sources all contain the word "Xarnego" when in fact none of them do, as Panotxa showed above, if you take the trouble to read his post. A certain editor attempted to create articles of this sort and to add content of this sort to other articles, including this one. That editor is now indefinitely blocked as a sockpuppet, which means he had a history of disruptive editing. His POV rants should not be restored under any circumstances.

I have no problem with content being added to show the usage of the word in 2017–18 on social media. Some of your sources above look good, but others don't have the word in the article, only in the comments underneath, so they would not be reliable sources. But the other stuff needs to go. Scolaire (talk) 17:37, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

What I believe is that this is history, and the word is being used, especially since the campaign for the independence of Catalonia began, because no one has written a really valid sociological study or because they have not been interested, ideological reasons or that many will take it as something discriminatory, or for other things, the word was there, important people -independentist and unionist figures- have often expressed themselves using that word, and still continue to be used as a descriptive tone by those who are "xarnegos" and discriminatory many times by the pro-independence, there are issues in the world that are not studied fairly, because they are very controversial, however the issue has its history and continues to develop, as I said for that are social networks, to give you say if at some point the derogatory or descriptive tone of the word has disappeared, and then no.

I do not believe that if there is no study that focuses on the subject in its present, should be erased from the knowledge of people all its history and its active present--ILoveCaracas (talk) 18:28, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

But I've already given you your answer. If the word is being used today, and you have reliable sources for that, then the fact that the word is being used today can and should be added to the basic article. But the 1,200-word essay about the creation of the SEAT car company, the youth writings of Jordi Pujol, the 20 most common surnames names in Catalonia proper etc. has no relevance whatever to the fact that the word is being used today. Write a short, factual, encyclopaedic and non-emotive paragraph about the fact that the word has re-appeared and is used in a derogatory way since the campaign for the independence of Catalonia began, and we will both be happy. But the other stuff needs to go. Scolaire (talk) 19:20, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Some remarks

1) The article makes an artifical difference in saying that xarnego "referred to immigrants from non-Catalan speaking regions of Spain - in other words, a foreigner to Catalonia. Eventually it also took on a linguistic sense referring to those Catalans who do not speak Catalan". In reality, the perception of Catalan speaking people was that Spanish speaking immigrants were foreigners precisely because they didn't speak Catalan. For instance, Catalonia had had an important number of Valencian immigrants for decades, and they were not percieved as foreigners, as they spoke Catalan. 2) The article forgets a very important feature: beginning in the 1970s the derogatory word xarnego was consciously abandoned by Catalan speaking people in the name of social integration, and it has been obsolete for decades.FerranLup (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:26, 4 April 2020 (UTC)