Talk:Virginia Hall

Untitled

Did she have kids?Qrc2006 00:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

She did not marry until aged 44, which is late to start a family even these days of advanced medicine. In the prevailing culture of 1950s USA, simply 'not to be unmarried' would have eased her social status considerably, as well as providing useful cover for her 'government' work (married women can't spy, right...?)... Her relatives & descendants are represented by a niece (who knew nothing of Aunty's secret life until the obituaries came out).Protozoon (talk) 11:23, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

What is the evidence for the comment that the British 'wished to give her a higher award, but did not wish to compromise her with publicity'? This sounds rather like the similar phrase 'we thought of promoting you, but you've been such an invaluable filing-clerk we'd never have found a suitable replacement and anyway you seem so happy on your current pay-band...'

This might have been said by an embarrassed official at some stage, but are there any actual margin-notes, or records of 'internal'conversations between specific British officials, as to the level of award?

The MBE has definitely become cheapened over the years, for various reasons, but in 1945 (and more so in 1943, when she left British service) it definitely had status. At that time there was a lower level, the BEM, that was considered suitable for years of excellent government service; there were the King's Commendations; there was a special (British) King's Medal for (foreign)resistance workers. The fact that the MBE decoration was also an 'Order' was considered to be a cut above straight medals (up to a point). In form, it was also shaped like a cross, which has subliminal connotations of higher status than a medal (ie. officers received the DSO, and DSC or MC or DFC, etc. -all crosses - but Other Ranks, for exactly the same act, would receive the CGM or DCM or CGM (Flying)and DSM, MM or DFM, etc. -all medallions). Maybe she did merit higher, but the MBE was by no means the humblest reward. In wartime, there were literally millions of people working hard and with great courage: they couldn't all become VC or GC.

However, the basic premise sounds hollow. If she were upgraded to, say, OBE, the status (it would normally be given, say, to the Colonel of a Battalion or Regiment, for outstanding work that was not in combat [building roads, bridges, etc. in difficult country under a time pressure?]) would compromise her, whereas an MBE would not? Surely the award of a British Order of chivalry -at any level - to a US citizen working in France, not GB, for a US newspaper, not the British, might draw some comment as to why the British might feel grateful to her? A conclusion pretty close to the truth would not be difficult to divine... Would one level higher really have altered the basic incongruity of any award at all, to a significant and threatening degree?

As an experienced foreign service hand,Virginia would have known her own status: she was appreciated greatly, but she didn't kill Hitler nor drop the Bomb,; her own nation gave her career the most meaningful award, the British 'bonus' merely attests to the scope and duration of her service. There have been literally thousands of MBEs (and OBEs) over the years, but we are still talking of Virginia Hall, Mrs. Goillot, of Maryland, USA. That is her best honour. Protozoon (talk) 11:23, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Parachuting

From the Special Activities Division page: "She parachuted into France to organize the resistance with her prosthesis strapped to her body." This page says she landed by boat: "landed her from a British MTB in Brittany (her artificial leg having kept her from parachuting in)." Which is correct? -Etoile ✩ (talk) 13:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

She went thrice to France during WWII, perhaps in some different ways. Kertraon (talk) 08:26, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Life

According to the Pearson book, she tried a couple of times to take the Foreign Service exam, but serendipity always intervened: once she received the exam (she was in Poland) but no answer sheet. BubbleDine (talk) 17:06, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Commands?

The info box lists her as holding a command in the "Scientists". SOE F Section networks lists her as a member of the "Hecklers", neither one lists her as the organizer or head and is this really a "command".--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 12:55, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

• I've replaced the infobox with the more appropriate {{Infobox spy}}, which has no "command" parameter, so the information is no longer displayed. However, it would be worth determining and citing which Section Network(s) she was part of and what her role was.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 14:05, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

1945-1951?

Does anyone have any reliable information on what she was doing from 1945 - 1951? In September 1945 she referred to herself as "Still operational and most anxious to get busy", according to the article, but the OSS was disbanded that same month and although the CIA was formed in 1947, she did not join it until 1951 - according to the article.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 14:15, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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German ancestry

Her mother had the German surname Hammel (transl. "Mutton"). Virginia also studied German in America and later traveled to Germany and Austria. Isn't more information about her ancestors known? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:B00:4776:F99D:EB08:83B0:87B5 (talk) 19:05, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Nephews or "nephews"

I don't think that the men described as "nephews" by the article were actually Virginia's nephews, rather they were so close to her that she called them "nephews". This is my understanding from "A Woman of no Importance" by Purnell, though I don't have a page number. Sanpitch (talk) 05:19, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't have Purnell's book handy to check that -- but in writing that into the article I was a bit dubious also. I'll fuzz up the statement about the nephews in the article until we find something definitive. Thanks. Smallchief (talk) 08:54, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Unlinked shortened footnotes & incomplete citations

This article has a citation style that is odds with what we typically have in English Wikipedia. Specifically, it uses a convoluted version of unlinked shortened footnotes. One can find directions on how to properly do shortened footnotes at Help:Shortened footnotes.

This article fails to put the full citations in a separate section, & fails to link shortened footnotes to the full citations.

For example, we have <ref>Purnell, Sonia (2019), ''A Woman of No Importance: The Untold Story of the American Spy Who Helped Win World War II,'' New York: Viking, pp. 12–21.</ref> that yields a footnote like this:

Purnell, Sonia (2019), A Woman of No Importance: The Untold Story of the American Spy Who Helped Win World War II, New York: Viking, pp. 12–21.

And we have this, <ref>Purnell, pp. 19–20</ref>, which yields this

Purnell, pp. 19–20

It is much less useful for a reader to not have the shortened footnote point to the full citation.

Also, the full citation is incomplete, lacking an ISBN or an OCLC.

I plan to rectify this by establishing a Sources section as 3rd-level heading under references, putting the full citations there using citation templates & adding any missing parameters, & using {{sfn}} to link the shortened footnores.

This should present more useful & consistent citations for the readers. Peaceray (talk) 17:30, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

 Done! I will try to circle back & standardize the rest of the footnotes with citation templates. Peaceray (talk) 22:31, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

First female agent in France?

Could not be true. Nancy Wade, for example, was living in France before the war, and stayed there as an agent before escaping to Spain, and then returning to lead a Maquis.

Hall was one of several dozen very brave women and men that served the dubious SOE, but perhaps the only American. Tuntable (talk) 23:52, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

• Article says Hall was the second SOE female agent in France. The first was Giliana Balmaceda who wasn't in France for long. Nancy Wake, as well as several other women who became SOE agents, was in France before the war, but Wake didn't became a member of SOE until 1944. Smallchief (talk) 00:12, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Limping Lady?

In the text is this statement: «The French nicknamed her "la dame qui boite" and the Germans put "the limping lady" on their most wanted list.<ref name="Ramul 2021"» The linked archival article is a fragment that doesn't support the text. In the German page, they have this: «Chef der Gestapo von Lyon wurde Klaus Barbie. Barbie, der nie Halls richtigen Namen oder ihre Nationalität erfuhr, soll gesagt haben, er würde alles dafür tun, „dieses hinkende kanadische Miststück“ in die Hände zu bekommen.” This attributes to Klaus Barbie of the Gestapo the nickname “this limping Canadian bitch” (He didn't know she was American), but says nothing about a most wanted list except indirectly. The German page cites a CIA article «https://web.archive.org/web/20200205123853/https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/2015-featured-story-archive/virginia-hall-the-courage-and-daring-of-the-limping-lady.html» but this doesn't really support either what the German page says or what the English page says about what the French and Germans called her. Perhaps a better way to go would be to give a translation or paraphrase of this text; «Der für seinen Sadismus berüchtigte Gestapo-Chef von Lyon, Klaus Barbie, fixiert sich auf Hall. "Ich gäbe alles, um das hinkende kanadische Miststück in die Finger zu kriegen", wird ihm als Zitat zugeschrieben. Dass er ihre wahre Nationalität nie kannte, hingegen Virginia Hall als Verdienst.» «The Gestapo chief of Lyon, Klaus Barbie, notorious for his sadism, focused on Hall. 'I would give anything to get my hands on that limping Canadian bitch,' he is quoted as saying. That he never knew her true nationality is a credit to Virginia Hall.» and cite only its source: https://www.derstandard.de/story/3000000202376/virginia-hall-die-spionin-mit-der-beinprothese Gkshenaut (talk) 22:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Information about Virginia

How did she become the best spy in world war 2 92.98.143.125 (talk) 12:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC)