Talk:Tris Speaker

Criticisms

Low-quality English, little speculative NPOV comments. I'd generally like to see the article written in a more encyclopedic style, this is more like paperback biography. Generally the article is just not very good. Mglovesfun 02:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The article states that Speaker caught a ball hit by Shoeless Joe Jackson in the last game of the 1920 season, but this couldn't be true since Jackson was suspended before that.63.108.139.78 (talk) 21:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

When I read this article, I was appalled by its poor quality, and hope my edits have helped.Hushpuckena (talk) 16:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Note that the Black Sox grand jury did not convene until late 1920, so Jackson did play in the 1920 season. EricEnfermero ^Howdy! 05:37, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Middle name

According to his death certificate, Speaker's middle name is Edgar. Is this a reliable enough source? Adam Penale (talk) 02:15, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Batting Average

Corrected the batting average rank in the opening paragraph to fifth all time. He's actually sixth, behind Shoeless Joe Jackson, but since Jackson is banned from baseball his rank doesn't count. Used Baseball Reference [1]website to provide the citation.TheKurgan (talk) 15:57, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Records and achievements

Corrected his batting average all-time rank to sixth, following the same link as above under "Batting Average." Also, I originally corrected it to fifth (not counting Joe Jackson's average since Jackson was banned for life), but someone else made it sixth. I actually agree with sixth since Joe's average was earned when he was a player in good standing. So, sixth it is.TheKurgan (talk) 13:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Cleaned up some of the criticisms, question the authority of some of the info in article

Originally the article stated Speaker was traded to CLE on April 12; the NYT article I found, which was originally published 9 APR 1916, stated "yesterday", so I went with April 8 in the article. Considering the NYT article was published before April 12th, I'm going with the source I found. Also, the same article stated the Boston Americans got Speaker from HOU for $400, not $800 as it now states in the article (I flagged as dubious). These are two examples of the larger picture: this article is still relatively weak because it cites few sources (and the ones it did reference were not cited in great fashion). Zepppep (talk) 12:06, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tris Speaker/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Secret (talk · contribs) 05:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Will review this, with the hope that my laptop doesn't fry on me like it been doing lately, turning off for no reason. I do have one major question however, why hardly any usage of baseball historian Timothy Gay outstanding biography on Speaker here. All I see is two citations from the book, and I personally believe that it should be the main source for such an heavy topic like this. That is more of a WP:FAC matter concern if you ever want to go that far, but I will be checking some of the more suspect newspaper sources with the book however. Thanks Secret ^account 05:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for picking this one up, Secret. I certainly understand laptop issues. I share your thoughts about the Gay biography. In fact, I ordered it, expedited delivery, a couple of days ago and I expect it by the weekend. However, I happened upon this article in decent shape and was able to tighten up the referencing using other sources. FA is really not "my thing", but I'd like to make the article as complete as possible. If it's not comprehensive enough for GA, I can certainly add material from Gay over the weekend. I can also access portions of it via Google Books if we're looking for specifics. Thanks again! EricEnfermero ^Howdy! 05:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, do you want to hold until the weekend at least so you could have the Gay book before doing a complete review? Or do you want me to do a partial review first? Thanks Secret ^account 19:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

We can begin. Thanks! EricEnfermero ^Howdy! 23:08, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok reviewing...

• "Spoke" was a rarely used nickname, even in present sources, I recommend to remove it from the lead.

 Done - I originally left it because I saw it was the name of one of his biographies.

• The lead itself is rather long per WP:LEAD, and there are some parts that can easily be covered in the main body, but not significant enough for the lead, like where he grew up.

 Done - Let me know if it works now.

• "and still holds the record of 792 career doubles..." wikilink double and still should be replaced by currently or presently as he probably had no idea he held the record when he retired.
  • Rewrote this a bit. I generally avoid the use of currently or presently, since that can quickly become dated.
• "Defensively, his career records for assists, double plays, and unassisted double plays by an outfielder still stand." Wiki-links are needed for people unfamiliar with baseball, also stand for what?

 Done - No unassisted double play entry, but I think it can be sorted out from the assists and double plays entries. Let me know if I missed wikilinks on other jargon. "Records still stand" is standard usage to indicate that a record is current.

• No mention of the "infield rotation play" in the body, also needs a wikilink as even I am confused what that means.
  • Removed. Just wasn't bold enough to remove it when I first got to the article.
• "season average dropped to .322 from .338 the previous season" Better as "batting average", hardly anyone uses "season average" unless they are discussing a player in the middle of baseball season.

 Done

• "but released by their teams." Redundant as the same sentence mentioned Speaker resigning when the allegations surfaced, remove.

 Done - He resigned, was cleared by baseball officials to rejoin the team, and was then released by the team, but that's a lot of explanation for just a minor point. Removed.

• "He finished his tenure in Cleveland with a 617-520 win-loss record as a manager." Not that important to be mentioned in the lead, main body is fine.

 Done

• "His Hall of Fame membership has been recently criticized.." I don't recall it being a huge controversy, Gay mentions that Speaker mentioned in a newspaper interview that he was a member back in the early 1910s and had a childhood friend who was later a head wizard of the Klan, but doesn't touch the subject after. Cobb was way worse, I don't think its important for the lead.
  • Removed from lead.
• "but others point out..." Who are the others? Only one name is mentioned in the body, reword or expand later in the article.
  • Removed from lead.
• "breaking his right arm in a fall from a horse." Grammar
  • I'm a grammar nerd but couldn't find the issue. Rewrote into a more basic structure. Let me know what you think.
• Gay, Mike Sowell and other modern day historians, and journalists from about 1960 and on dispell the football injury as a story Speaker likely made up, the source using the information is too outdated and more as a trivia section reword accordingly.

 Done

• "...Doak Roberts, then owner...." Remove then

 Done

• "and wanted to be a" wanted should reworded to decided

 Done

• but his mother opposed his being “sold into slavery”. Grammar, needs source as a quotation
  • Not sure what happened, but lost the source for the direct quote. Replaced with a similar idea from a different source.
• "Even after he had had success on the Houston club in the same league in 1907..." Awkward sentence, maybe "In 1907 Speaker had a second successful season with Houston of the Texas League, but his mother stated....
  • Rewrote with straightforward structure.
• When expanded with the Gay book, the main reason why his mother refused to let her son participate in baseball should be given.
  • Will do. Still haven't received it, but I'm able to find some things via Google Books excerpts.
    • I believe I've found it. Let me know if I've covered it sufficiently.
• "...seven games for the Red Sox in 1907, with three hits in 19..." Be consistent in numbers under 20.
  • I get confused because WP:NUMERAL suggests that numbers up to nine should be words. Two instances of at-bats in the section, both of which are double or triple digits, are consistently written as numerals.
• "...center fielder in 1909 and light-hitting Denny Sullivan..." And should be as
  • Since as sometimes suggests "because", I think and is more appropriate here. The cause-and-effect was likely the reverse.
• " Because of his quickness, Speaker could play as shallow as 50 feet behind second base." While I understand the sentence, nearly everyone else who doesn't follow baseball won't. Also the sentence feels random in that section. Rephrase.
  • Reworked this a bit. Let me know.

To be continued...

Thank you for your work so far! EricEnfermero ^Howdy! 04:02, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I'm behind on this, I found out I managed to get my old job back a few days later plus now I have school to deal with (three semesters left). I'm likely going to be inactive for a extremely long time soon as a result. However I haven't forgotten the review and hopefully I can finish it tomorrow night, or Thursday. Secret ^account 02:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

No problem. My copy of the Gay biography appears to have been lost in transit, but I was able to add a couple of specifics mentioned in the review by accessing excerpts through Google Books. EricEnfermero ^Howdy! 03:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Any update on getting the biography? Wizardman 15:40, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Wizardman, I think the real problem here is that Secret, the reviewer, hasn't edited on Wikipedia in three weeks, and based on the comment made about being inactive for a very long time due to job and school, it seems unlike that Secret will be finishing this review. It's probably time to request a new reviewer to take this over. BlueMoonset (talk) 12:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Good point, didn't check his contribs. I'll put it back in the queue. Wizardman 16:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tris Speaker/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs) 01:02, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I will review this.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:02, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:LEAD

• I would mention platoon here.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:31, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
• The dab link in the toolbox has one issue.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:32, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
• The external links item in the toolbox has one issue.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:32, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Addressed the dab and EL issues. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 03:53, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Early life

• Only his WP:LASTNAME is necessary here.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:31, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
• You go from Boston Americans to Sox without explanation.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:31, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Now you have changed it to to going from Boston Americans to Boston to Red Sox without explanation. You need to explicitly state when the team name changed, whether there was a merger or what other circumstances led to this sequence of facts.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:11, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
    • I really messed that one up, but I think I've fixed it now. Let me know if further clarification is required. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 06:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
• Add some dollar conversions. Here and throughout. See Jackie Robinson.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:31, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Traded to the Indians

• What were the outfield dimensions of Speaker's home field?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:31, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
• Tone down "had a viselike grip on the ball" to "held the baseball".--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:31, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
• Is there data to describe his best defensive seasons?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:36, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • The article seems to be a chronological presentation. When he had good statistics in a given year discuss it in the chronological context. Spewing facts at the end of the baseball biography is not as sufficient.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:24, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
• What about Best doubles and most hits?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:36, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • This also needs to be presented in chronological context.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:24, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I've tried to address all of the items above. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 10:14, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Best offensive and defensive stats have now been incorporated in chronological order. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 08:04, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Major league career

• In the subsections of this section, you might serve the reader better using team season links
  • E.g. "John McGraw's New York Giants" is not so helpful to the readers as linked. If it led to the 1912 Giants that would be helpful.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • You could link Red Sox in "The Red Sox won the 1912" to the 1912 Red Sox article.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • The same is true of several team names that are mentioned (especially every World Series opponent).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
    • What about "ahead of the Philadelphia A's".--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
    • "1920 World Series against Brooklyn"--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
    • "September 26 loss to the Yankees"--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
    • " Tom Zachary of the Washington Senators"--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
    • "Cleveland-Detroit game."--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
      •  Done EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 03:53, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Phrases like "The 1921 Indians" are just begging for proper links in this regard.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:18, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
• On review I also noticed that the first use of many baseball terms are unlinked. (hits, at-bats, steals, etc.)--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I believe I've incorporated all of the relevant team season links now and I've tried to wikilink all of the baseball terms I can find. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 06:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Later life

• where there any notable Cleveland boxers during Speaker's tenure as Cleveland's boxing commission chairman?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I couldn't find any from Cleveland, but I incorporated info about a Cleveland fight involving former middleweight champ Teddy Yarosz. Speaker sorted out a date conflict for Yarosz's 1940 fight in Cleveland. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 06:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
• How long did his battle with Pneumonia last?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Added a sourced mention of Speaker being seriously ill for several days. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 03:53, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
• "for the Indians until his death." add in 1958.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  •  Done EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 06:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
• "first American athlete inducted into a state sports hall of fame" begs explanation.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Rephrased to make this more understandable. Can clarify further if needed. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 06:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Death

• WP:LASTNAME goes for all subjects in the article including Ty Cobb.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  •  Done EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 06:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
    • N--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:15, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
      • Sorry - how about now? EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 04:00, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
        • Haven't checked all names in the prose, but I see Ty Cobb and Harry Hooper in full multiple times still.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:05, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

*The second appearance of Cobb's full name is inside a quote, unless I'm missing something. I can only find one repeat of Hooper's full name and it's in a caption. I don't think the caption reads as well without the full names, but I don't want to violate policy. Is that the repeat that we're looking at? I feel like I've checked the other names pretty thoroughly, but I'm glad to fix any others that are identified. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 06:01, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

• • Oh. Quotes. I forgot. all good.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:08, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
• Link Nap Lajoie.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  •  Done EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 06:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Legacy

• Link Cap Anson.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:44, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  •  Done EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 06:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Images

• All images are PD.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:58, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
• WP:CAPTIONS are poor.
  • File:BoSox Outfield.JPEG caption is ungrammatical. It has two periods suggesting that it has two complete sentences. However, it has no complete sentences. Also add (left to right) to the caption.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:58, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
    • Done, but open to suggestions if not quite right. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 03:53, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
  • File:TrisSpeakerGoudeycard.jpg caption does not state who the subject of the photo is.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:58, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
    •  Done EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 03:53, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

• I am putting this article on "HOLD". I will monitor the progress and reevaluate after a week.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:20, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

• Great work. I am PASSing this now.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:09, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your help! EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 06:15, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Speaker's Career Hit Total

I'm not sure how to handle Tris Speaker's career hits total. Major League Baseball's official website reports it as 3,515. Yet many other reputable sources (the National Baseball Hall of Fame, Baseball Almanac, Baseball Reference, and FanGraphs to name a few) all report the total as 3,514. I edited the lone "3,515" I found on Speaker's Wikipedia page (in the stat box along with his other basic biographical data), but it was reverted shortly thereafter; this is even though "3,514" is mentioned in two other spots on the page. Should a simple "3,514-3,515" be written, similarly to Cap Anson's "2,995-3,081"? Then again, a disparity of one may not justify that. Regardless, I suggest we choose one of the two figures to use throughout the article, for the sake of consistency.

Philippe277 (talk) 00:30, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Re:Tris Speaker hit total update

One figure should be decided for his hit total, and I believe 3,514 should be the figure because after MLB, just about all other sources cite 3,514.It will make the page more consistent with one figure, not two. Has 3,515 in inbox but 3,514 in 2 other spots on the page. One stat should be decided.I realize there are small discrepancies in baseball, but this change makes sense. Thanks and have a good day.2601:581:8500:949C:304C:CD3D:3958:6A95 (talk) 23:04, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Grey or Gray?

This article (also his SABR biography) refers to Speaker as "The Grey Eagle." His Associated Press obituary says "Gray Eagle."

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/5228677/tris_speaker_obituary/

Also, the Gay book mentioned above talks about several businesses owned by Speaker - Gray Eagle Liquors, Gray Eagle brands. The book also cited an advertisement that used "Gray."

https://books.google.com/books?id=GbfiWx3VVkMC&pg=PA274&lpg=PA274&dq=tris+speaker+gray+eagle+obituary&source=bl&ots=ufNG61286M&sig=ACfU3U2nICiQXXoh9zCSSTMLhA27_6GeCQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjAobSAodHkAhXDFzQIHdJWCjs4ChDoATAPegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=Gray%20&f=false

I don't know about wiki policy, but it seems like Speaker presented himself as The Gray Eagle. Arnold Rothstein1921 (talk) 22:15, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

This article argues for Gray as the default American spelling:

http://en.m.wiki.x.io/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences Arnold Rothstein1921 (talk) 03:09, 15 September 2019 (UTC)