Talk:Souliotes

bibliography doesnt support clearly the albanian origin of the souliotes...

William Eton in his book published the letter of Ali Pasha Tepeleni to the Botsaris and Tsavellas clan in which he distinguish them clearly from the Albanians... "page 382 following... even more so its known that Epirus was populated by the Dorians during the ancient times... the Epirotes where three dorian tribes the Molossians, Thesprotians and Chaones... the fact that the souliotes and in genaral the Arvanites spoke a language close to tosk albanian mixed with greek, turkish, roman and slavic words doesnt make them Albanians... 46.14.122.218 (talk) 13:56, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Were the Souliotes wholly Albanian?

Many sources that I added previously mention that the Souliotes were not fully Albanian. Some consider them Greek, while others clasify them as an intermediate group between Greeks and Albanians. These references shouldn't be removed because they add some layers to the topic. I haven't find any document that they were so many Albanians in the region of Epirus. It is true that some probably moved during the reign of Ali Pasha. But I'm still gonna add the aforementioned pieces into the article Unkownsolidier (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't get why we should not at least mention the different theories regarding the Souliote's ethnic identity put forward ? Unkownsolidier (talk) 14:28, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

And I do not get why you want to highlight in undue fashion views thats have been rejected as fringe by mainstream scholarship. Past (and now rejected) views on the origin are elaborated on somewhere in the Origin and Identity section. No need for more. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I literally noted this in my edit ("These views are not generally accepted by modern scholars"). I don't get the fact that when it comes to people like the Ancient Macedonians, we have to note in the article that some Ancient Greek authors gave conflicting accounts regarding their precise ethnic identity (which doesn't mean that they were not Greek), but for Souliotes we must not at least note that many contemporaneous writers considered them Greek or semi-Greek. That doesn't mean that they were not necessarily Albanian. Their last names were of Albanian origin and so was their language, but I think the aforementioned theories add a few layers to the topic on how the Souliotes were perceived at that time. Unkownsolidier (talk) 14:49, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

What is done on the Ancient Macedonians article does not matter for this article. In any case, mainstrean scholarship seems to be divided about the origin of the Ancient Macedonians, but it is not about the origin of the Souliotes. The article is not a repository of books so we can't add every fringe, outdated view that someone 2 centuries ago held. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok I get what you're saying but a few passing mentions about the aforementioned isn't unnecessary. Furthermore, articles about persons/places/historical events etc take into consideration the contemporaneous sources by authors of that time. And lastly, most modern scholars agree that the Macedonians where truly Greeks who had retained a more archaic lifestyle than those living in southern Greece. The historians who doubt this are few. Unkownsolidier (talk) 15:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Adding long quotes from 19th century Greek authors is WP:UNDUE and WP:OFFTOPIC in the context of wikipedia. We know what the nationalist Greek 19th century POV is and it's wholly rejected in bibliography. The comparison between ancient Greek authors and their views on ancient Macedonians vs. modern Greek authors and their views on Souliotes isn't pertinent. The POV of modern Greek authors is discussed in the article indirectly via modern sources.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:07, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991: Edits by @Unkownsolidier: are an attempt to add WP:FRINGE theories which don't exist anywhere in modern bibliography. The statement From the beginning of the 19th century, in the spirit of romanticism, theories were formulated that associated the Souliotes with the ancient Selloi, while Lambros Koutsonikas considers the Souliotes to be native descendants of Epirote Greeks who migrated to the mountains during ancient times, in order to escape the Roman forces. These views are not generally accepted by modern scholars. Most of them agree that the first inhabitants of Souli settled there in the middle of the 16th century as groups of shepherds. This is a totally fringe statement. The case is not that the view about the Souliotes coming from a hypothetical Bronze Age population is not "generally accepted by modern scholars". It was a fictional theory even in the early 19th century and such fringe concepts just don't exist today.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:18, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok whatever you say. I'm just gonna remove myself from this situation. Unkownsolidier (talk) 17:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

This is wrong Souliotes are not Albanians 72.241.211.17 (talk) 12:41, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2024

There should be mentioned that related ethnic groups are Arvanites and Roumeliotes. 2A02:85F:FC94:C900:45A5:6976:BF1:2FA (talk) 17:54, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jamedeus (talk) 20:26, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

You need to make some Changes. Souliotes were Greeks and they didn't have Albanian origin. As Souliotis this page offending me

Souliotes

The breathtaking mountains of Souli.

The Σουλιώτες (Souliotes), also known as Suliots and anciently as Σελλοί (Selloi), are the inhabitants of Σούλι (Souli) in the mountains of Mourgas in Epirus in northwestern Greece. They are the villagers of the "Τετραχώρι" (Τetrahori -- four villages) who made themselves famous in the 19th century by their resistance to the Ottoman Empire.

Ptolemy (Geographica, 3, 15) calls Epirus "primordial Hellas" and Aristotle (Meteorologica, I.352a) reports that an ancient cataclysm was most severe "in ancient Hellas, in between Dodona and the Achelous river [...], the land occupied by Selloi (or Helloi) and Graeci who later came to be known as Hellenes." The Souli were addressed by the Greek poet Andreas Kalvos (1792 – 1869) as the modern descendants of the Selloi, in his ode "Eis Souli" or "To the Souli". In support of the poet's belief, a Greek historian, Constantine Pantazi proved that the area that is currently Epirus in northwestern Greece was populated by one of the first ancient Hellenic tribes, the Selloi since 800 BC. The area was called Thesprotia by the Selloi. About 1600 A.D., the Souli migrated from the plains of Thesprotia up into the mountains of Mourgas, where a confederacy of clans presented a united front to the Ottomans [1].

The Ottoman Turks attempted numerous times to conquer the territories of the Souliot Confederacy. In 1731, Hatzi Achmet, pasha of Ioannina, received orders from the Sultan to subdue the Souliots. He lost his army of 8000 men. In 1754, Mustapha Pasha lost his army to the Souliotes too. In the following years, Mustapha Kokka came in with 4000 soldiers and Bekir Pasha with 5000. Both failed to defeat the Souliotes. In 1759, Dost Bey, commander of Dhelvinou, was defeated by the Souliotes. Maxoud Aga of Margariti, the governor of Arta, suffered the same fate in 1762. In 1772, Suleiman Tsapari attacked the Souliotes with his army of 9000 men and was defeated. In 1775, an expedition of Kurt Pasha failed. When in 1788 the notorious Ali became pasha of Ioannina, he tried for 15 years to destroy the Souliotes. In 1792, his army of 3000 Turko-Albanians was eliminated. Although he had hostages (such as Fotos Tzavellas who was the son of Lambros Tzavellas), Suliotes under the command of Georgios Botsaris, Lambros Tzavellas, and Dimos Drakos fought very bravely. Even women under the command of Moscho (Lambros Tzavellas' wife) participated in the battle. Eventually, 2000 Turko-Albanians and 74 Souliots were killed [2]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Igoumenitsa1992 (talk • contribs) 06:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

If you are indeed a Souliote, then your ancestors were Albanians and spoke Albanian not too long ago. I am not sure why that offends you. Nonetheless, WP:NOTFORUM applies here. Please see the modern scholarly sources on the article, which take precedence over the works of Andreas Kalvos and other romanticised sources you discussed. Botushali (talk) 00:40, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Igoumenitsa1992, Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, not on personal opinions. Jingiby (talk) 04:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

You have the right to feel however you like even Chinese but please keep your personal feelings out of Wikipedia which is based only on verifiable reliable professional sources.RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 07:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)