Talk:Sonic X-treme

Quote tone

I've thought on this for a while, and I'm wondering if using the shortened quote from Mike Wallis referencing what artists, programmers, and designers were doing gives the wrong tone, and if another version or partial excerpt of the quote would be more appropriate. Here's what I'm concerned about: as it reads, it to me seems like Wallis is giving a mea culpa, taking responsibility for the faults in what was going on with the team, since he was the producer on the project. That's about as far from the truth as it gets. This is the full statement he made that he submitted to Lost Levels, from which our excerpt is taken:

This was the most fucked up org. chart I have ever had the (mis)fortune of working on. It was set up matrix style, which for those of you who understand business organizational management know is a concept that works in theory but is so fubar'd in practice. Especially for game development. In a nutshell what it meant was that all the artists report to an art director, the designers to a design lead, and the programmers to a technical lead. Each of those 3 groups reports to the VP. As producer, I was technically running the project except that in a matrix style I only have dotted line authority over the above mentioned groups. Therefore all of the responsibility, but none of the authority. And as you can see, if any of those groups did not want to do something or wanted to work on something different than what the others were working on, they could go ahead and do it if their director gave them the OK. So we had artists doing art for levels that hadn't even been concepted out. We had programmers waiting and waiting and waiting until every minute detail had been concepted out, and we had designers doing whatever the hell they wanted. It was a mess and because of the internal politics (the art director had trained his art team to hate the designers and programmers), it was even more difficult to get any work done.

— Mike Wallis

So yeah, basically he tries to absolve himself of any fault. Whether or not that's the case is for readers to decide given the circumstances, but I wonder if anyone else has any thoughts on the quote tone and if it should be edited to reflect Wallis' intent a little more. Red Phoenix ^talk 03:48, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't think the quote as presented in the article at the moment is misleading. IMO, the important point to be drawn out of this quote is that the project was badly managed and the staff didn't work collaboratively. It's not so important whose fault that was, IMO, and the quote as it's presented now doesn't really make any claims in that regard.

However, if we wanted to, we could handle the quote differently. By inserting it into the prose, we can do a bit of paraphrasing and inject some context - something like this (rough draft):

Wallis said the art, design and engineering groups were free to choose what they worked on, leading to a lack of coordination: "We had artists doing art for levels that hadn't even been concepted out. We had programmers waiting and waiting and waiting until every minute detail had been concepted out, and we had designers doing whatever the hell they wanted. It was a mess and because of the internal politics (the art director had trained his art team to hate the designers and programmers), it was even more difficult to get any work done." According to Wallis, this meant that, as producer, he had "all of the responsibility" for the project, but "none of the authority" to direct the staff.

. Popcornfud (talk) 17:58, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

In general, I like that idea as long as the quote isn't too long to handle in prose. The only issue I might have is stating the groups were "free to choose what they worked on", because the source doesn't quite say that in my eyes. I read it a bit more as everything was massively uncoordinated and under-managed because Wallis wasn't given the authority to properly control the project. (It's also curious that the three groups are noted as reporting not to Wallis but to the VP, which I think would have been Roger Hector, head of STI). I have to say, though, Popcornfud, that I love the last line of your rough draft and think it encapsulates what I want to accomplish here perfectly. That I think would be a perfect addition to the prose somewhere in there. Red Phoenix ^talk 02:32, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Vandalism?

I've noticed that the edit of this page (https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Sonic_X-treme&oldid=1044036565) appears to have changed the Director of the game to a keyboard mash of some kind ("HTRHYTYRY"). This should probably be changed. --Tomrow (talk) 07:55, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

It was changed already twice, and next time you see vandalism, just "undo" or "rollback" it on the spot. This is a project everybody can correct. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:55, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

The misgendering of Christina Coffin

There are numerous sources online confirming Christina Coffin's name and gender, including her own LinkedIn page. Wallis's contemporary quotes use male pronouns to refer to her, but outside of those direct quotes, she should be referred to under the proper name and pronouns.

Yeah, it probably is good to have a wider discussion on this. Is there any reason for a discrepancy like this? Is this a misunderstanding related to transitioning to a different gender? Or a typo or misunderstanding or what? Sergecross73 msg me 14:49, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

We likely can't use LinkedIn per WP:LINKEDIN. What other sources give the female identity? Popcornfud (talk) 16:58, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Are sources unified in using male pronouns? Sergecross73 msg me 18:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

All the ones I've seen (and are currently cited in the article) use male pronouns. Popcornfud (talk) 18:10, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Here's an article I found where a Christina Coffin won a Women in Gaming award... Sergecross73 msg me 18:19, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Sega Retro, while not a reliable source, mentions that she often gets misgebered because she often goes by Chris. Again, while not usable as a source, those super-fans often do their research, and it ultimately checks out. Sergecross73 msg me 18:23, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Worthy of note, though, is it’s not just Wallis who refers to Coffin as “he” - Patrick Baggatta, a writer for Game Players magazine, was sent to STI’s development of X-trend in 1996 and wrote three articles, referred to as “Sonic’s Red Shoe Diaries”. Not only does he repeatedly refer to Coffin as “he”, in the second part there is also a photo of Coffin. It does not seem to me to be as simple as a common misgendering, and reliable sources don’t back that up. Red Phoenix ^talk 19:40, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

It's easy to conclude that Coffin has since come out as trans, and I have no objection to reflecting that in the article, but we need good sources to support it. AFAIK we don't make sourcing exceptions for issues like these, but I'm not an expert here. The changes should be reverted to the WP:STATUSQUO for the moment. Popcornfud (talk) 19:55, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that scenario though too, if I've got the details and timeline right. (Strictly talking timeline here, I am 100% supportive of all genders and forms of self-identification - it's not that what I'm questioning, for the record.) Weren't they born with the name Christina, nicknamed Chris and referred to as "he" in the 1990s, but given a female-specific award in the 2010s? Sergecross73 msg me 23:32, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

This is certainly an odd case. On one hand, from the looking I've done it doesn't seem like this is a gender transition case; Coffin's just incorrectly been referred to as male due to her nickname. But the fact Coffin is consistently referred to as "he" in interviews with Wallis is perplexing. My best guess would be that Wallis never actually met Coffin in person? (I could be totally wrong, of course—it's just an assumption.) I'll try to do some more digging—I'm a Sega Retro member so I'll see what I can find by asking around. JOEBRO64 23:41, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

So I asked. She's not trans. Wallis is probably mixing up Coffin and Senn. JOEBRO64 23:49, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Like I said, though, it's not just Wallis. This source, used as a reference in the article, provides a picture of Coffin and author Patrick Baggatta, who was there on site covering the team developing the game, called Coffin "he". Baggatta does so again in another part, multiple times. Red Phoenix ^talk 02:04, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Super weird, but I mean, there are interviews of Coffin speaking of her experiences as a woman in the industry. She's certainly more of an authority on the matter of her own gender. Not to mention certainly a major industry award would be checking into such things more than copyeditors of 90s gaming mags. Sergecross73 msg me 03:07, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

The picture in that magazine is pretty blurry and only has five individuals in it, fwiw. I think this is a crystal-clear case of WP:GENDERID: Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. Whether this is a gender transition or not (I don't think it is, but regardless), Coffin is self-identifying as female, so we should identify her as such. (Also, it may be worth noting that Wallis' memory on X-treme seems to be pretty shaky—SENN was the one who canceled his lease, even though Wallis said it was Coffin) JOEBRO64 03:25, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

@TheJoebro64: I’m sorry, but I have to challenge a couple of the things you just said. For starters, Part 2 of the Red Shoe Diaries has a picture of Coffin alone, not just one with five individuals. I looked and verified myself before I posted what I did above. Secondly, where are you getting this notion that it was Senn who cancelled his lease? I’m under the impression through the reading of the sources that Senn and Alon were pretty well off the project by this point and working on their PC version, and that the Saturn version was the one under pressure to be done by the deadline.

With respect to all, I’m deeply concerned on multiple fronts we’re getting into WP:SYNTH territory and trying to make assumptions. Perhaps the best way to handle this would be to leave the name “Chris Coffin”, since Coffin uses the short version of the name, and paraphrase Wallis’ quote to avoid any gender reference whatsoever. It’s not my favorite solution since I don’t like the idea of not promoting women in video game development, but I think we need to stop trying to make connections ourselves and just go with what we have reliably sourced. Verifiability, not truth. Red Phoenix ^talk 12:06, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

I understand some of your concerns and counterpoints, but I'm not quite sure I follow your counterpoint to WP:GENDERID when we've literally got an interview of her talking about her experiences as a woman in the industry. Sergecross73 msg me 12:11, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

It’s this: Are we absolutely, 100% sure it’s the same person? Nothing in said interview states that this particular Christina Coffin worked for Sega or STI or on Sonic X-treme. We’re assuming it is, but the connection isn’t actually there. Red Phoenix ^talk 12:25, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

I mean, what are you really proposing here? That there's two Christina Coffins who are decade spanning programmers in the same industry, one male and one female? "Coffin" is not exactly a common name. I get that it's possible, but I hardly think it's likely. I can do some more digging, but...that would be quite the unlikely development I feel like... Sergecross73 msg me 12:54, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

I’m saying that it’s OR and SYNTH to assume so unless directly stated otherwise. We have period-based reliable sources to the contrary, and a former producer who still uses male pronouns to refer to Coffin. Am I saying I know for sure Coffin is male? Absolutely not. I’m saying I don’t know, and Wikipedia in Wikipedia’s voice does not have reliable sourcing to solidly make that conclusion. Ergo, why I posted a gender-neutral compromise above. (I’d like to point out as well that if Coffin is female, I don’t like the idea of not giving her proper recognition as a woman in a male-dominated field, but as it stands I feel this is the best solution until more evidence surfaces).

A quick side note to Joebro as well: I read the source linked in this talk page that said it might be helpful, and though I question how useful it could be, Wallis states they set up cots in the building, so I suppose Senn and Coffin could have both done so. Red Phoenix ^talk 15:00, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

I'll keep digging. I was neutral going into this, but the Industry award and interview really moves the needle for me. I can't really agree with your reservations outside of a "devils advocate" kind of way. I just wish I could read the rest of the interview. Only page one loads for me personally. Perhaps the rest is somewhere out there. Sergecross73 msg me 17:49, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

This might be largely redundant with what was said above, but as I see it, the Christina Ann Coffin on LinkedIn is clearly the same Christina Coffin who in 2011 was "Senior Engineer at DICE focusing on Battlefield 3" and was honored with a Women in Gaming Award at that year's GDC because the career details mentioned in her 2011 interview (such as that her first job in the industry was for Sculptured Software in 1994) are identical to those listed on her LinkedIn profile.

While we cannot use LinkedIn as a source directly, it is noteworthy that Coffin's LinkedIn resume lists a stint as technical director for Sega of America between 1995 and 1998, which overlaps neatly with Sonic X-treme's development. On LinkedIn, Coffin specifies that her credited work for Sega included the Saturn port of Quake. (Obviously, she would not have listed unreleased projects like Sonic X-treme as an official credit.)

Sure enough, the credits of Quake on Saturn give "Special Thanks" to "Chris 'Applejack' Coffin For His Wisdom." In light of that credit, I think we can safely dispense with the possibility that there were two "Chris" Coffins working on Saturn programming in 1996–1997, one cis-male and the other cis-female.

The standalone side view photo of the individual identified as "Chris Coffin" on p. 42 of Game Players, July 1996 strongly suggests, when combined with the other evidence already listed, that Christina came out as trans at some point after the photo was taken. (TheJoebro64's statement that he "asked" unnamed parties, presumably the randos at Sega Retro who believe that the Saturn may have sold up to 17 million units even though Sega itself reported 9.26 million units sold to CESA, and they insisted this was a simple case of misgendering by numerous colleagues all of whom inexplicably never met Coffin in person, is not persuasive in my view, unless TheJoebro64 got that information directly from Coffin herself.)

Needless to say, though, it does not actually matter if Christina is trans; Wikipedia policy supports referring to her using female pronouns consistent with her self-identification.

While common sense suggests that the Christina Ann Coffin on LinkedIn who worked for Sega of America during 1995–1998 and was identified as "Chris 'Applejack' Coffin" and thanked for "His Wisdom" in the credits to the 1997 Saturn port of Quake is the same person as the Chris Coffin mentioned in our article——and hence should be referred to in wikivoice using female pronouns consistent with her self-identification—if that is leaning too heavily into WP:OR territory, then Red Phoenix's compromise proposal "to avoid any gender reference whatsoever" would be the next best option. Regards,TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

The latter is exactly my concern, that we are leaning too far into OR territory. When I did the research for this article, I had to take high levels of caution with every source and even discard sources from normally reliable places for being blatantly inaccurate. I feel that as a result, this article has FA-quality sourcing without original research, and I don't want to see that reduced in any fashion. As long as it's okay with everyone here, for now I will at least implement my suggested compromise, on account of the fact that no one here is arguing for male pronouns at all and therefore such a change should be uncontroversial. If new sources come to light, or consensus forms against my opinion and argues for female pronouns and the full name of Christina Coffin, then that can be done at that time. Red Phoenix ^talk 01:57, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

As an aside, I'm sympathetic to Red Phoenix's attempts to stick to WP policy here. I think there may be a bit of a tragic double standard emerging, about which I have mixed feelings. There's lots of stuff that is obviously true that I'd love to add to Wikipedia articles but I don't because we don't have watertight sourcing... should we make an exception for this kind of issue? Popcornfud (talk) 12:11, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with the compromise of just rewriting to exclude pronouns altogether. Sergecross73 msg me 13:18, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• This probably isn't going to change how we handle it in the article, but a friend recently sent me a Sonic Retro post by Christina Coffin where she mentions she was the Chris Coffin who worked on X-treme and a tweet from her Twitter where she mentions working on a Sonic game around 1996. I don't think either is a usable source in the context of Wikipedia, but I just thought it was worth posting for the record. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 03:25, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, it's nothing we can really use, but I'm still happy to see it on a personal level, since it validates my stance in those previous discussions. Side note: Reading through the content of Coffin's posts were also fascinating, even if they're not usable here.) Sergecross73 msg me 16:00, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed, and I feel it also validates my stance too, that we should not use male pronouns, at least. I do wish we could do this some justice and identify Coffin as they would prefer and get an explanation as to why 1996 media doesn’t seem to agree with now, but I can’t imagine anyone starting that discussion in a reliable source that doesn’t in any way sound creepy or inappropriate. Red Phoenix ^talk 18:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

New info

I've learned that the new Sonic the Hedgehog Encyclo-speed-ia reveals that some of Sonic X-treme's sprites ended up being repurposed for 1996's smash hit Sonic Schoolhouse. I don't have the encyclopedia to verify it, but it should definitely be added to the article once we have the page number and passage. JOEBRO64 04:10, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I never saw this until now. That's wild, I'd never heard of this before. I hope someone gets a hold of it someday, as that sounds pretty interesting. Sergecross73 msg me 16:42, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Opening paragraphs

I feel the wording in the opening paragraphs as to the game's cancellation is misleading and doesn't paint the whole picture. It makes it sound like all the development trouble came from company politics and the SoA vs SoJ thing, when there had programming difficulties since the beginning, such as the main engine performing too poorly on the Saturn. "An unfavorable visit by Japanese Sega executives" also sounds ambiguous and confusing for people unfamiliar with the game's development history. How about saying that there were difficulties with the game engines instead? I feel that covers most bases, as it refers both to their main engine's performance issues, its negative reception by the Japanese higher ups, and the rejection of their request to use the NiGHTS engine all at once. -- Bluest Bird (talk) 18:02, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Seeing as how the company politics was definitely a major contributor, I don't think we should omit it from the lead. But if the programming problems etc were also a major contributor, we can add that to the lead too. Popcornfud (talk) 18:20, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

How about:

"X-treme was conceived as a side-scrolling platform game for the Sega Genesis to succeed Sonic & Knuckles (1994). Development shifted to the 32X and then the Saturn and Windows, and the game was redesigned as a 3D platform game for the 1996 holiday season. The plan was disrupted by company politics and difficulties with the various game engines planned for the game. Amid increasing pressure and declining morale, designer Chris Senn and programmer Chris Coffin became ill, prompting producer Mike Wallis to cancel the game. A film tie-in with Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer was also canceled." Bluest Bird (talk) 18:26, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand the efforts to de-emphasize the SOA vs SOJ stuff - from my reading on it, that was a big factor, and lead to a turning point of sorts. I also don't understand the concern that it "all" boiled down to that when it's literally one of three things listed in the sentence. Sergecross73 msg me 19:48, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

It really wasn't that big a factor, that's basically romanticism. STI was tasked with making the game. Instead of working on one engine, STI decided to split the team and create two (one for levels and one for bosses), despite having only one Saturn devkit (which they gave to the boss engine's team for some reason). When Nakayama reviewed their work the main engine proved to be sub-par, so he told them to base the whole game on the better performing boss engine instead. It wasn't just Nakayama's assessment either, the higher ups at SoA had previously recognized the main engine's poor performance as well. Then time constraints and infighting at STI made the release window unfeasible, so they asked to be given the further developed NiGHTS engine as a shortcut. Naka took issue with them using his engine without his permission, so he demanded it be taken away from them.

At most you could say that Naka's reaction was a result of the SoA vs SoJ thing, but that's still debatable. Senn said that his impression was that Naka was just very protective of his creations and felt his team were the only people who could do the Sonic series justice. He took issue with anyone else meddling with his baby, not just SoA in particular. -- Bluest Bird (talk) 21:28, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

I'd actually like to take a quick whack at this, if that's all right. It was only recently that I found and added reliable sourcing about how far behind X-treme already was by the 1996 SoJ visit; before that it could not be reliably sourced and therefore we had to go with the focus the sources gave. It's been tough to de-romanticize in the research because the stories of its development are almost all based on anecdotes. (Note though that I have nothing on the SoA higher-ups and their opinion). So, that being said, I wouldn't mind altering the focus of the lead a bit more to make the point that it was badly behind schedule, since we do now have reliable sources.

I will throw out, though, that I'm not fully convinced Senn's account is accurate, and when it comes to Naka I'm not sure I agree with his opinion here. Naka didn't throw out this attitude about Sonic Spinball, for instance, which was developed by a mostly American STI team, and it was his choice not to develop a Sonic game for 1996 and he couldn't honestly expect Sega not to deliver one. And in fact, Sega did with the help of Traveller's Tales, with Sonic 3D Blast. Let's also not forget the 1993 AM3 arcade game SegaSonic the Hedgehog. Retro Gamer has published rumors that there was a "Sonic Saturn" in the works in Japan (not just Sonic Jam) that later led to Sonic Adventure, but we know very little about it. Red Phoenix ^talk 01:38, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Okay, so I took part of your idea and noted the multiple game engines. I'm hesitant to totally remove the visit and the Nights engine parts, and here's why: WP:DUE says we should give weight to what more sources cover. Reliable sources vary a ton in this article, but almost all of them make a deal of these two events. Therefore, I want to make sure they're given proper due weight since I've done a lot to ensure no original research in this article and that it has FA-quality sourcing. Red Phoenix ^talk 01:44, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Another Yuji Naka tidbit

Recently, Naka said he was unaware of X-treme's development and denied being a factor in its cancellation. I'm not sure how to incorporate this in the article (it's a strange development and contradicts what Senn has claimed) but I think it might be worth mentioning. (It doesn't appear to have been picked up by outside sources, but directly citing Naka's Twitter should be acceptable per WP:TWITTER.) JOEBRO64 18:16, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't touch it tbh - the statements aren't really strong or revealing enough and citing Twitter is always a bit flimsy, even for official accounts etc. If a RS covers it then I think it'd be OK to throw in. Popcornfud (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm leaning towards this too. Naka kinda feels like he's in disgruntled, "I'm going to say whatever I want" phase after his troubles with Square and Sega. I think there's also a bit a of a disparity considering the time that passed and who was involved too. Let's say some young teen meets Taylor Swift. That teen may remember every second of that 5 minute exchange for the rest of their life. Meanwhile, ask T Swift about that exchange 20 years later, and her response may very well be "I don't remember that at all" because they were just one in a million of those sorts of exchanges. A bit extreme of an example, but it still applies - I'd trust the words of these minor devs about Naka back in the day more than a thoughtless tweet Naka makes decades later. Sergecross73 msg me 23:33, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I mean I clearly said might, not that it should; I mainly just posted it here for the record. JOEBRO64 09:44, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I didn't mean to suggest it was a bad call on your part. It was a reasonable proposal, and I find it interesting that he said that. I thought about maybe trying to wedge it in there somewhere. But unless he keeps bringing the point up, I just do t know if we should try to rewrite the narrative here to a casual tweet he probably made without much thought. Sergecross73 msg me 12:47, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I’m honestly of the opinion that because so much of this story is told anecdotally through Wallis and Senn, and a bit through Naka, that what we really have is a story told by unreliable narrators. As such, we have to treat it accordingly. How is Naka “unaware” of X-treme’s development when in another anecdote he recalls being relieved that it was cancelled? Red Phoenix ^talk 17:38, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I find it hard to believe that, after the completion of Sonic and Knuckles in 1994, he remained a Sega employee who had no idea what the company was doing with the franchise a mere year later. I think we're either taking him too literally or it's a translation/language barrier issue. He may have just meant more of a "I wasn't developing that game so I don't know what was going on with it" type sentiment. Sergecross73 msg me 18:05, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I maybe could believe Naka not knowing about X-treme in particular if he'd only seen the development when it was on the 32X; given that he was working on Nights at the time, I think it's somewhat possible he wasn't aware the project made it to the Saturn (and feeling relief that it was canceled doesn't necessarily mean he knew about it when it was in development) and the story about him denying the use of the Nights engine is far more mundane than Senn relates. But who knows; as Red said, basically everyone here is an unreliable narrator. It's important to remember that people often remember things differently. It's not uncommon for developers to have wildly conflicting stories about the development of their games, a crystal clear example being the Michael Jackson Sonic 3 conundrum. JOEBRO64 20:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Just to add on, since I’m under the impression that Joebro is very familiar with Senn’s account and I’m very familiar with that of Wallis, that Wallis said the exact same thing about Naka threatening to quit Sega if the Nights engine was used. This could have simply been a narrative being pushed at STI for all we know, but both of the main sources on the game’s development do agree on this. Red Phoenix ^talk< Red Phoenix ^talk 00:23, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I found an interview with Senn where he says "I only heard that Naka-san was adamant about keeping the NiGHTS engine private. I also recall a rumor that the NiGHTS engine was shared with the STI crew." (Emphasis mine.) So it sounds he doesn't really know if the story is true and it thus originates with Wallis. RSs haven't picked up on Naka's denial (yet) so I think the best course of action would be to explicitly attribute the anecdote to Wallis, since it's in dispute. JOEBRO64 10:46, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

There are new tweets with Naka claiming that the rumors of him taking the NiGHTS engine away from STI are false, and argues that it would have been impossible for the X-treme team to use it having been written in ASM (STI used C) and having no documentation:

https://twitter.com/nakayuji/status/1545081556019998720

Also note the interview snippet posted there, in which Senn was asked about the time STI got ahold of the engine and he called it a rumor.

This discredits the above argument that the story was corroborated by Senn and Wallis. Does that leave Wallis as our only source? Monobyte (talk) 06:01, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

• I really feel at this point this needs to be changed to reflect the uncertain status of this claim to conform to the BLP policy. One can argue that Naka is being painted in a negative light as a stubborn, uncooperative artiste throwing a temper tantrum and sabotaging a project by a fellow Sega dev team. I believe our BLP policy requires us to include Naka’s denial and emphasize that this is an uncorroborated recollection of a single individual. Indrian (talk) 15:59, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

  I really think we need to wait until we have something better than a casual tweet decades later though. Which I do believe is coming. It strikes as something that your IGN/Eurogamer type website will eventually dive into because Naka keeps making noise about it. Sergecross73 msg me 16:19, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

  I believe our BLP policy requires us to fix this now. The source for this info is solely Mike Wallis, who claims that Bernie Stolar told him that the head of development in Japan told Stolar that Naka threatened to quit over the Nights engine being used. That is multiple levels of hearsay being used to portray Naka in a negative light, and Naka has publicly denied this was the case. And Naka’s denial was not “casual.” It is clear from the tone of the several tweets that Naka is pretty upset by this allegation. This is not the high quality sourcing required for a BLP. The full context of where this information came from and who is disputing it is required here to prevent potentially defaming a living person. Whether we have libeled someone or not is not dependent on whether a gaming news site has picked up a story. Indrian (talk) 16:29, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

  The man recently attempted to edit someone he doesn't like out of a historical photo. He's not a reliable narrator. Outside of tacking on a short "Naka contests the account" type comment, I don't believe his self-published social media account is usable in the context of this game. Sergecross73 msg me 17:02, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

  I’m busy today, but I did find there is an article on it published by the British tabloid Metro, so it is now getting coverage. Only issue is that Metro is considered not reliable on WP:RSP. Red Phoenix ^talk 18:25, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

  And that's how it often goes. First, those no-name blogs cover it. Then if it's a legit story, it eventually makes it up to the fringe "TheGamer"/NintendoLife websites, and then eventually to the mainstream. Sergecross73 msg me 19:17, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

  Of course Naka is an unreliable narrator, but so is Wallis because he was not there when this demand was alledgedly made. Context must be given for BLP reasons. I am quite frankly surprised this is still a discussion. Indrian (talk) 19:11, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

  I second this. Wallis heard it from Stolar, who would have heard it from a translator who translated the Japanese's response. Add to that the fact Wallis was talking about an event from years ago.

  It's also documented that there were communication issues between the American and Japanese Sega branches back in the day. Sonic 2 was developed by Japanese and US devs, and the language barrier led to major complications, misunderstandings and a chaotic development. And they were working together in the same offices. Monobyte (talk) 19:21, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Now that I'm home, I did some research and WP:TWITTER allows tweets in certain contexts. I don't like using one in an FA, but for now I did go ahead and insert it, with intention that when the gaming media catches up we'll replace it with a better source. Red Phoenix ^talk 02:09, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Just chiming in to note that while Naka definitely has his own credibility problems (and many people who have worked with him have described him as personally abrasive), the 2011 "relief" quote does not on its face contradict anything in Naka's 2022 tweets: "With regards to X-Treme, I'm not really sure on the exact details of why it was cut short, but from looking at how it was going, it wasn't looking very good from my perspective. So I felt relief when I heard it was cancelled." [emphasis added].TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 07:07, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Actual storyline

The storyline described here is incorrect, the actual story was that Robotnik rebuilt the Death Egg to be larger than Sonic’s planet and it’s size threatened to destroy it and Sonic had to stop him before the world collapses. Could you change that part please. Sammyboy08 (talk) 15:20, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

All content on Wikipedia needs a source, and this is a Featured Article - the highest quality rating an article can have. You need to be more careful with your additions. Your wording is rambling and you link to articles that dont make sense. But step one is definitely finding a reliable source that verifies this. Sergecross73 msg me 15:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The thing is with X-treme is that it seemingly never had a set plot; I know that when Yasuhara was brought in at the last minute to help out, he planned to do away with the Boobowski storyline and introduced one that more explicitly tied the game to the Genesis ones. The thing is, the Boobowski storyline was the one that Sega was promoting by the time the game was canceled and thus is the one reflected in reliable sources, so I think it should stay. I know there were quite a few story drafts (one based on SatAM, Yasuhara's draft, and a few others I don't remember off the top of my head) but RS coverage of X-treme's development is unfortunately limited in certain areas (such as the story and Yasuhara's involvement). JOEBRO⁶⁴ 20:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree, and assumed this was the case with the level of work and research that's already been done on this game. I'm open to being proven wrong, but it's got to be a reliable source, not something from the fansites or a Twitter user or anything iffy like that. Sergecross73 msg me 20:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Box art?

I found a lower quality version of the box art from Sonic Wiki Zone and I have optimized it be the same resolution as the current box art. Can I replace it with my newer, lower file size version? NintenBOUND (talk) 14:12, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with the current box art, it survived the WP:FA process. I wouldn't waste your time. Sergecross73 msg me 14:18, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I am glad someone said something, though, because it led me to check our current image and find the source link was dead. Went into the Wayback Machine and pulled an archive, so all good. Red Phoenix ^talk 00:45, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Development images

Hey! I found some development images from different periods of Sonic X-treme's lifespan; which ones should I use, if any? Here they are, from Sonic-16:

• https://info.sonicretro.org/images/b/bb/Genesis_PM_Concept.png and Sonic Mars for the Sega 32X:
• https://info.sonicretro.org/images/0/01/SM_Main_Play_Screen_%28Sideview%29.png
• https://info.sonicretro.org/images/2/26/Sonicmars.jpg
• https://info.sonicretro.org/images/d/d5/Sxc_isometric0.jpg

NintenBOUND (talk) 15:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The main problem we’re going to have here is that all these images are copyrighted. I had enough trouble at the FAC trying to convince reviewers that we needed two and not just one. I don’t think it’d meet the non-free use criteria to add more. Red Phoenix ^talk 16:37, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Again, this is a WP:FA. Its not perfect, but its probably not lacking basic stuff like this either. Sergecross73 msg me 16:44, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks for the link. NintenBOUND (talk) 14:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)