Talk:Sarnia

Untitled

i am writing a paper on Sarnia for a university planning class and was wondering if anyone could direct me to a website or contact number for planning officials in Sarnia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.198.108.100 (talk • contribs) 2004-11-20T00:00:35

Try here: [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.111.186 (talk • contribs) 2004-11-20T00:13:09

Unnecessary Facts

I find the following facts about Sarnia completely inappropriate for this article:

• The Sarnia Golf & Curling Country Club is currently managed by Don Summerton.

Why should anyone looking up information on Sarnia care who manages the Golf & Curling Club?

• Sarnia has a very active Computer Users' Group (SCUG) with more than 100 members.

This fact seems to be an advertisement for the group.

If there are no objections, I will remove these facts. --Darren Lee 13:57, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Keenan Hollingsworth

I saw this kid Keenan vandalized on here...He's my cousin oddly enough so I'll have to talk with him about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarnya (talk • contribs) 2006-01-13T18:15:07

Lambton County

An anon editor recently edited this article to state that Plympton-Wyoming is the county seat of Lambton County, but both Lambton County, Ontario and List of Ontario census divisions say that Sarnia is the seat. Could somebody please provide a reference to confirm? Bearcat 02:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The County of Lambton Administration Building is located in Wyoming, ON. [2] I've added references to the fact in the Plympton-Wyoming, Ontario and Lambton County, Ontario articles. --Darren Lee 18:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Jen Bida?

Who or what is Jen Bida and why is it important enough to be mentioned so high in the article? Acsenray 22:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Anon addition that was put in the article about 20 minutes before you posted this. I've reverted it. Bearcat 23:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Michael Moore

The following does not make sense: "He interviewed residents outside the local Taco Bell, The Plaza beside it, the Famous Players' Lambton 9 movie theater and at a gun show in nearby Point Edward."

The Plaza beside it, beside what Taco Bell? If so, if you are looking at the Taco Bell from the street to the left is a Bank (CBIC) and right is an Adult Movie store. FYI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.191.2.130 (talk • contribs) 2006-05-19T09:59:47

The plaza mentioned is just to the right of the Taco Bell when looking from the street, with the Adult Movie store being on the left, and the CIBC still further left. The quoted information is accurate. tgok 12:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

James Doohan

You may also want to include James Doohan in your list of people from Sarnia, tho he was not born in Sarnia, he was raised there and did attend school. http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/James_Doohan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.191.2.130 (talk • contribs) 2006-05-19T10:09:36

Communities

Please note that the communities list is only for communities that are within the legal boundaries of the City of Sarnia proper. Nearby communities which are incorporated as part of other municipalities, such as Point Edward, Camlachie or the Aamjigwaning First Nation, are not to be listed as Sarnia communities. Bearcat 23:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Jonathan P. Arnold

You may also want to keep this name up under the "People from Sarnia" section. He was only in Sarnia for his high school years, but among other things, was one of the few chosen to represent Sarnia at the World Scout Jamboree in Australia in 1987. While there, he wrote as a journalist for the Sarnia Observer filing stories on what he saw and experienced. He also was a member of the LSSAA Sr. Football team for NCIVS. He later went on to found a successful consulting company in Toronto (the "Acme Widget Company") after dropping out of Queen's University. Several years later, he returned to university and received both his BA and LLB in the same year. Since then he has been involved in the field of municipal law working on cutting edge files. Not as sexy as, say, Kim Mitchell or Platnium Blonde in terms of a whos who of Sarnia, but notable enough for this little burg.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Litig8t0r (talk • contribs) 2007-01-19T15:20:16

• I've read all of your appeals on whether this name is noteworthy here, in the Tony Fox talk page and in a Labrador article as well. It sounds like you are Jonathan P. Arnold or know him personally. The problem with this that only you know these facts about him. There's no articles on him anywhere on the internet. If you did a google search for Kim Mitchell, you would get all sorts of hits. The guy has his own radio show! I'm a film editor myself and have had my name in the credits on almost every channel in Canada. Arguably, I'm as successful as Jonathon P. Arnold, but I don't belong on wikipedia. He is not notable and will not added as a famous person from Sarnia or any other community.--Sarnya 23:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

This page has been getting a lot of vandalism lately. Is there any way we can try to protect it from unregistered users? Sarnya 21:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

"People connected with Sarnia" section

I think the list should be moved to its own page called "List of People from Sarnia" or something of the like. Either that or convert its contents into prose and integrate it into the article. --Darren Lee 03:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Been away from Wikipedia for a while... can't tell why this list is displaying improperly (ie: half of the list shows under "References") Anyone know how to fix it? Darren: Option C might be to segregate the list into categories: Arts, Sports, Politics... etc ?? Lyn (talk) 02:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

No comment on whether to split the list out or not, but the reason the list was partially displaying under the references heading was that somebody had misplaced the ref tags for Alexander Mackenzie's gravesite location; the entire list after Mackenzie was inside ref tag #1. This seems to date back to an edit sometime in December; prior to that Mackenzie's gravesite in Sarnia's Lakeview Cemetery was listed separately from his primary entry on the list — somebody merged the two but screwed up the ref tags in the process. Bearcat (talk) 02:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I removed David Greene (director) from the list today. He is clearly notable, but I couldn't find a Sarnia connection for him. I would support re-listing his name if a reference can be found. PKT(alk) 18:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

There are multiple David Greene (director). The one referenced must not have been the English guy, rather the guy born in Sarnia 18 July 1968. I'm working on getting a citation other than iMDB for it (since iMDB is not considered a valid source).TheKurgan (talk) 12:54, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Environmental Issues

There's absolutely no mention of any enviromental issues in Sarnia. Take a look at the picture on the article page; that is Chemical Valley in the back ground. The entire place smells like chemicals. There have been chemical spills in the St. Clair river. Interestingly, I didn't realise that the oil was pumped in from Alberta. 64.230.84.178 (talk) 04:52, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. No mention of the Chemical Valley health concerns what-so-ever. This is a Wikipedia page, not a tourist board.

I feel the following article should be cited, and a 'Chemical Valley' sub-entry started: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/aboriginals/health.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.183.17.201 (talk) 18:46, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Here's a brief mention of Aamjiwnaang, the first nations reserve next to Sarnia that has been the foci of health problems related to Sarnia's industry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.57.132.91 (talk) 15:53, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

This reminds me of User:Snickerdo and the St. Catharines article where he and another user, who were both residents of that city, tried in vain to keep that city's dubious title of "Canada's fattest city" from being added to Wikipedia a few years back despite overwhelming reliable sources. We need to remember that Wikipedia isn't a tourist guide. WP:NPOV needs to be practiced here, which means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.

It's been over two years since this has been brought up and only one single mention of Sarnia's notorious environmental issues? There was a diesel spill today that closed a street[3] which prompted me to visit this article, and yet there's only one sentence devoted to the pollution issues of the city and St. Clair County in the entire article: The complex of refining and chemical companies located downriver of downtown Sarnia once adorned the back of the Canadian ten-dollar bill and are the reason that the World Health Organization named Sarnia the most polluted city in Canada. This sentence is in the lead of the article, but is not expanded on later in the article. This needs to be corrected. There are numerous WP:RS that talk about cancer issues (even in the Sarnia Observer with local residents and numerous other problems (air quality etc.). Just based on the Manual of Style for articles alone, if it's in the lead, there should be more information later on in the article. I suggest working on a paragraph on the talk page to avoid edit wars with local residents who may take offense to what is written. Anyone want to lead this? --Yankees76 ^Talk 23:26, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

This still needs to be addressed. --Yankees76 ^Talk 16:18, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Will address. With citations.TheKurgan (talk) 17:54, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Addressed, with citations.TheKurgan (talk) 18:55, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

It's a start. --Yankees76 ^Talk 13:36, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

While I agree that the Environmental issues are important, they should not be the main focus of the article. Each section of the article should be equally important. Listing every single chemical spill/pollution event seems to overstate the case. Perhaps a more detailed article about such pollution events, separate from the main article, would make sense. We could then link the new article from the Sarnia main article. Comments, everyone?TheKurgan (talk) 14:08, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Not saying the whole article needs to be about Chemical Valley nor should we detail every spill or pollution event. However, neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint and should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. In Sarnia's case, having an encyclopedia article on a city that is known nearly as much for it's refining and chemical industry or for having 40 per cent of Canada's petrochemical industry as it is for any thing else one should expect to see a bigger portion of the article devoted to that and it's effects on the population. And while your material is good and much needed, some of it feels biased toward rarely reported "cleanup" activities or doesn't paint the entire picture.

For example, I'm not sure that just using an article that talks about Sarnia having the dirtiest air in the province is telling the complete story, especially when another Sarnia Observer article that reports how the WHO has stated that Sarnia has the highest amount of particulate matter per cubic metre of air in all of Canada is also available but left out.[4] There's also the widely quoted Ecojustice Canada report that showed the 62 large industrial facilities located within 25 km of Sarnia emitted more than 131,000 tonnes of air pollution in 2005, a toxic load of more than 1,800 kilograms per resident.[5]. There is also the major CBC story in 2008 (that was also turned into a documentary[6]) that talks about the Aamjiwnaang First Nation in Sarnia which recorded the lowest rate of live male births in the world.[7],[8] [9]. Should we also highlight that for cancer in men Sarnia has a 34% higher overall cancer rate than the provincial average, a lung-cancer rate that is 50 per cent higher, a mesothelioma rate five times higher and an asbestosis rate nine times higher.[10]?

The more searching on Google I do on the subject, the more Globe and Mail and other newspaper articles I find. Perhaps "Environment" isn't the section where all of this material fits either - however as noted before we're not making a tourist guide - not everything is positive.

Again great job on the current edits! --Yankees76 ^Talk 17:52, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, Yankees76, feel free to add the articles and citations. I'm going to continue working on it, too. I'm a born New Yorker, but I live in Sarnia now after marrying a Canadian in 1996...so I sorta think of this as "my" article now...heh...I want it to be A-Rated eventually, though. I don't want to bias it. As a suggestion, though, if we put all the bad stuff first under "Environment" and the cleanup stuff later, not only will that fulfill both sides of POV it will also showcase how Sarnia has reacted to the dangers. Make sense?TheKurgan (talk) 19:20, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I plan on adding material here and there, and yes your idea makes sense. We can subsection the Environment section further - break it down by Air Quality, Water Quality etc. I almost believe that a section that's simply called "Chemical Valley" could be warranted as the term is only brought up once in the "Development" section. A short section on the Valley with a general overview and it's associated effect on the residents of Sarnia over the years and it's current push towards lowering emissions etc. would be able to cover off much of what I posted above. Like you I would love to see this as a Featured Article. --Yankees76 ^Talk 19:33, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Added the links and references you already made, Yankee76. I changed the title to Environmental Impact, as well. See ya around soon.TheKurgan (talk) 20:06, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I also found two awesome pictures, but they're on the CBC website and are not public domain. They'll let us use them, but they'll charge us for them....*sigh* That's not in the budget.TheKurgan (talk) 20:34, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Photo Removal

Removed photo of Chemical Valley per editor order. You know, it's VERY annoying to have EVERY FREAKIN' PHOTO I upload erased for some specious reason even though I give good reasons for fair-use. Of course, THEY don't consider them good reasons, but discussing it with them is useless so it's simpler to just remove the photos and wait for them to be deleted.TheKurgan (talk) 15:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to read about your photo-related issues. The rules about them are so obscure, I walked away from all related discussions some time ago. PKT(alk) 15:57, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, PKT. I'm just going to go take pictures myself. Of course, I can't take a picture of the Edmund Fitzgerald (which they made me remove even though I got permission from the copyright holder to use it). If they delete those, I don't know what I'm going to do. They tell me that to improve the article I have to have photos and then they delete everything I upload. Grrrrr....TheKurgan (talk) 16:00, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Translation into Chinese Wikipedia

The 10:30, 31 May 2009 Alexbot version of this article is translated into Chinese Wikipedia.--Wing (talk) 12:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Paul Ysebaert, former NHL player.

Paul Ysebaert is actually from Corunna, not Sarnia. I grew up with him there.69.159.61.240 (talk) 15:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I believe you, but this link indicates he was born in Sarnia and grew up in Corunna. PKT(alk) 19:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Known as the Sarnia Bridge

i would like to open discussion on removing this, i have lived in Sarnia all my life and never heard anyone ever call it the Sarnia bridge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorne852 (talk • contribs) 09:01, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

This has come up before (although I can't find the discussion right now), and I agree with you. I have removed the phrase to which you referred. PKT(alk) 12:40, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

News Outlets

A new online news outlet has beeen started. The Lambton Shield. www.lambtonshield.com Someone might want to consider adding it to the media section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.164.171.148 (talk) 19:23, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Move Request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Favonian (talk) 11:10, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

---

• Sarnia, Ontario → Sarnia
• Sarnia → Sarnia (disambiguation)

– The other uses of Sarnia are another languages term for an island, and an anthem that has its own disambiguated title. Sarnia, Ontario should occupy Sarnia, perhaps with a hatnote to the island (which should discuss its national anthem). relisting with multi-move ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC) - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 20:38, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

• Very strongly oppose. This Ontario town is itself only one of the uses of the Latin name for Guernsey; most readers who will be looking for this name without context will have found some reference to the island (such as John Ireland's Sarnia, which I will be adding to the dab page). This piece of local pride is actively harmful. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:07, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

  This is the English wikipedia, not the latin one. The place is a mid-sized city. A hatnote at the top to the disambiguation page for these latin terms is the most appropriate setup considering two of the other three uses don't even contain "Sarnia" in them whatsoever... I fail to see the "active harm". - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 22:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

  John Ireland is an English composer; Sarnia is very often used, in English, for Guernsey. This is not the Ontario Wikipedia either. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:23, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment There is already a page at Sarnia, and the proposal needs to consider what should happen to that page (perhaps a move to Sarnia (disambiguation)?). A quick look at Google results here in the United Kingdom (which you would expect to be skewed towards Guernsey), clearly establishes that the Ontario community is the primary use. Not one of the first 100 results refers to Guernsey itself, though a number refer to Guernsey businesses with Sarnia in their name. It is up to Septentrionalis to provide evidence for his assertion that Sarnia is very often used, in English, for Guernsey. I can find no such evidence to support his claim, nor have I ever come across the term in modern English when referring to Guernsey. Skinsmoke (talk) 12:20, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

When I made the proposal the dab page only had Sarnia Ontario and Guernsey / its national anthem. At that point I felt a hatnote to Guernsey would do, but now it would be moving Sarnia to Sarnia (disambiguation) with a hatnote at what is currently Sarnia, Ontario. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 19:04, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not going to "vote" because I lived in southern Ontario until I was 20, so my bias is obvious; but I would like to hear from more UK editors as to the validity of the claims made by Septentrionalis. Is it common to refer to Guernsey as "Sarnia" or is it more of a historical footnote? PKT(alk) 13:30, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

• Strong support - WP:PRIMARYTOPIC clearly applies, and the current page can easily be moved to a DAB page. Ng.j (talk) 14:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
• Redirect instead as it's Wikipedia policy (as well as news organization's policy) to always include the province in Canadian place names (with few exceptions). Make Sarnia a redirect instead. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 05:01, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

  Not according to WP:CANSTYLE. That's a US precedent. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 10:47, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Appears to be the primary topic. Rennell435 (talk) 00:59, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sarnia Coat of Arms

Wanted to include coat of arms of Sarnia, Ontario as well as description. Included is the aforementioned heritage of the name, which Sarnia derives, which then can be directed to the appropriate page on the Isle of Guernsey.

Copy of Coat of Arms Image Source of Sarnia Crest, Description, and Name

"The three tiered coronet represents civic government. It is charged with Guernsey Lilies (Nerine Sarniensis) which is the national flower of the Isle of Guernsey from which the City of Sarnia derives its name.

The national colours of red and white are represented. The ship in the upper left hand corner depicts the historical significance of shipping to Sarnia as well as the current traffic and recreational boating for which Sarnia is well known.

The golden sprig of broom is a component taken from the crest of the former Town of Clearwater and recognizes the rural area which remains an important part of the new city. The blue line represents the St. Clair River while the black and white tip, at the bottom of the crest, represents the railway line through Sarnia and the St. Clair Railway Tunnel which joins Sarnia with Port Huron, Michigan."

THE MOTTO: SARNIA ALWAYS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.186.152.247 (talk) 03:08, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Neighborhoods

Removed an incomplete list of Neighborhoods. Will collect a more comprehensive list and post at a later date.TheKurgan (talk) 15:40, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Got a better list of Neighborhoods. These are according to Google Maps. Per the above entry, did not include Brights Grove, Point Edward, or the First Nation Territories.TheKurgan (talk) 14:54, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Moved Neighborhoods to "Development" as a subheading.TheKurgan (talk) 18:54, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Culture

Added Culture section about music and art opportunities in Sarnia.TheKurgan (talk) 16:19, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

New Photo

Added stunning shot of Sarnia from Space.TheKurgan (talk) 00:48, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute

Well, the person who tagged this article as needing NPOV work didn't start this section as he or she was supposed to, so here we go. Living in Sarnia, I don't want the article to violate NPOV because I want the article to be of highest standard. Need help in reworking what's considered non-neutral. So please, feel free to respond with examples so we can revise them together.TheKurgan (talk) 14:14, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Removed superfluous line about the Canadian Red Cross in the Transportation Section. Provided citation about Sarnians travelling the world helping other countries to drill for oil. Added general citations to the government section.TheKurgan (talk) 14:55, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Cleaned up grammar and added citations about the Saint Clair River Tunnel.TheKurgan (talk) 16:19, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Added citation showing Sarnia's infamous status as primary Anti-Energy Target of the Soviet Union.TheKurgan (talk) 20:27, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Want to add a citation about the famous "Fries Under the Bridge" for which Sarnia is known in Southwestern Ontario. I found the following link http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/432941, which basically is a message board where people have mentioned the fries, and that they must stop on their way to Toronto, etc. I don't know if the fries are notable enough to be included...BUT, if you put the search term "Fries Under the Bridge" into Google, the fry trucks in Sarnia are the number 1 result! To me, that's notability! But, I thought it prudent to ask here first.TheKurgan (talk) 20:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Google hits don't qualify as WP:RELIABLESOURCES. You might want to familiarize yourself with the RS guidelines, especially WP:NEWSORG. PKT(alk) 21:17, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, PKT. I will continue to look for sources for what I want to include. I HAVE already found sources for what I've already included, though, and have cited those in the text.TheKurgan (talk) 12:25, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Found a couple of sources...:) Will post them.TheKurgan (talk) 13:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

The article is coming along nicely. You probably don't need the NPOV tag, as there doesn't seem to be any opinion-based disputes going on in it. PKT(alk) 13:53, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

OK...will remove it!TheKurgan (talk) 14:54, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Possible Vandalism?

Some stuff seems to have been moved around to places where it made no sense. Now, maybe I did it by accident in editing the page, but who knows? In any event, moved stuff back to where it belongs.TheKurgan (talk) 16:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

No need to guess. "View history" will tell you what edits were made, when, and by whom (by that I mean; by which editor, or an IP address). There's a complete history of what the article has looked like over the years. PKT(alk) 19:10, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Guess it was me screwing up where I cut pasted stuff. DUH! It's fixed now. Thanks, PKT!TheKurgan (talk) 20:17, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sarnia/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Chip123456 (talk · contribs) 16:06, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I have read through the article and have noticed not all paragraphs are backed up by references. To achieve GA status they need to be. The article sill be placed on hold and I will re read it again to see if there are any other things that need to be rectified. To other editors - please feel free to comment to share your views on the article. the article will be placed ON HOLD.--Chip123456 (talk) 16:06, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I think I have all paragraphs with citations, both external and through internal linking. Let me know if I missed any.TheKurgan (talk) 19:54, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Just from a quick look:

• I would move the whole section on the name in the opening paragraph to the section called "name" and abridge so there is no repetition. Maybe leave a *very* short sentence in the intro paragraph on the name.

 DoneTheKurgan (talk) 14:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

• Any sources for the historical population numbers? See something like Lethbridge.

Could not locate supporting references on the historical populations except the census links so I removed them pending finding additional citations.TheKurgan (talk) 14:06, 13 April 2012

(UTC)

This is maddening. I can get all the Census Information that I want from the Canada Census Bureau prior to 1991. At $8.50 per category. That's just not in the budget! What do we do?TheKurgan (talk) 17:43, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I looked too, I think you should just leave it as is, but it's up to the reviewer to see if this is critical for GA. I think removing it would decrease the quality of the article so eventually sources need to be found. Mattximus (talk) 22:27, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

• Demographics section could be expanded. Please check out: Stats Can 2006 community profile for Sarnia. Lots of info here, but I would just stick short sentences on religion, ethnic background, and language unless you see something particularly interesting.

Not yet done. Worn out now (put in three hours straight, eyes losing focus). Please feel free to do these edits, too!TheKurgan (talk) 14:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done No data on religion on the page, however. Just added language and ethnicity statistics with citation. Did not break down ethnicity greater than "visible minority" since there are twelve different categories listed, none with more than 800 members. Also, listed aboriginals on their own line because of recognized First Nations status.TheKurgan (talk) 16:24, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

• I would remove the list of radio/television stations that do *not* originate from Sarnia. The media section would no longer need subdivisions.

 DoneTheKurgan (talk) 14:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

• I would list bands from Sarnia and remove the list of bands who have played in Sarnia. Not really relevant to the main Sarnia page as it is already repeated on the "Sarnia Bayfest" page.

 DoneTheKurgan (talk) 14:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

• Minor change under attractions: "Indian" is not a language.

Still says "Canatara is an Indian word that actually means Blue Water"....

 DoneWhoops! I did it but didn't hit save. DUH! Now it's corrected!TheKurgan (talk) 03:44, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

• Minor change under arts and culture: No mention of Kim Mitchell?

Kim is already listed on List of people from SarniaTheKurgan (talk) 16:24, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Are there other musicians from Sarnia? Might be worth a sentence or two under the arts and culture heading.

 Done

Mattximus (talk) 02:36, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you and yes, I agree with your comments. --Chip123456 (talk) 09:13, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Some other things which need to be sorted:

• I think on expansion on the museum section would be useful and a reference to go with it.

Worn out right now. Will attend later. If you would like, please feel free to do the edits Mattximus or Chip123456.TheKurgan (talk) 14:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done

• • I just merged the parks and museum subsections together under attraction heading, but museum sentence still requires a ref or two.Mattximus (talk) 22:02, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
• Sports section needs references to verify reliability. --Chip123456 (talk) 09:17, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

 DoneTheKurgan (talk) 14:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

• Healthcare expansion would be good. --Chip123456 (talk) 21:10, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done

• Another thing is that the first part if the media section is Unreferenced. Nothing majorly wrong but would be good to see a reference here. Also I'm very pleased with the amount of work that has gone in here! --Chip123456 (talk) 15:24, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

 DoneTheKurgan (talk) 16:14, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

TheKurgan another thing look at the last paragraph in modern history! See the problem with the ref????--Chip123456 (talk) 16:03, 17 April 2012 (UTC).

 Done Whoops! Fixed.TheKurgan (talk) 16:14, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

If possible, there could be an expansion on the neighbourhoods, as long as you can find a decent reference. --Chip123456 (talk) 16:54, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Some other things to improve the article:

• Section on Religion

 Done See the demographics section.TheKurgan (talk) 17:23, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

• Shopping

 Done Added text and citation.TheKurgan (talk) 17:23, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

• Any more leisure activities on offer

--Chip123456 (talk) 17:01, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

All done Except the Population History

All reviewer comments processed, updates done, citations added...with the exception noted above about the Historical Population and the fact that the Canada Census Bureau will charge me for the info! Am exhaling now...:)TheKurgan (talk) 17:43, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

• Demographics still needs a bit of work. Please take a look at the Lethbridge article to see how they incorporated this data. For example, you wrote the average age was 42 years... well, is this high or low compared to Ontario/Canada? Some context is vastly better than the list currently on the page. Feel free to copy the structure/text of the Lethbridge (a featured article) demographics section and just plug in Sarnia stuff. Mattximus (talk) 01:41, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done

TheKurgan, please see this. I thought it was just my computer but obviously not, please see mine and the administrators discussion on the Sarnia article on this thread. (after Notodden Airport discussion). --Chip123456 (talk) 17:37, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

The problem for the above has now been rectified, kindly by administrator Redrose64. --Chip123456 (talk) 17:55, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry about the refs. I usually make sure I get them all. I miss a few occasionally. Also, I don't know how to "Ibid" refs when they are multiples of each other. Could you please run the Refs bot over the article to make sure the refs are all correct/Ibidded correctly? Thanks!TheKurgan (talk) 19:36, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Not sure if still needed...but...Moxy (talk) 22:04, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

• Statistics Canada (2008). Canada Year Book (CYB) annual 1867-1967. Ottawa: Federal Publications (Queen of Canada).
• Statistics Canada (2011). Canada Year Book (CYB) annual 2006 - 2010. Ottawa: Federal Publications (Queen of Canada).

I got all excited! But then I looked at 1921 and Sarnia wasn't listed! GRRRRR...TheKurgan (talk) 01:26, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done Finally dug through the archives and found citations for all of the Historical Population numbers except 1841, 1971, and 1981. Will keep looking. Finally got this done! WOO HOO! TheKurgan (talk) 21:49, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Opinion on GA status

There is enough content to merit GA class, but the writing style has serious deficiencies.

Primarily, there are many sections that have too much trivia. For example (just from a quick scan of the article):

• In the opening paragraph, which should be a short summary of the article, there are such facts as Lasalle on 24 August 1679 “had horses pull his 45-ton Barque "Le Griffon" up the almost four knot current”. Is the weight of the ship really important to the summary of Sarnia as a city? Or the speed of the current? Or the exact day this happened?

The Griffon entering into Lake Huron by passing Sarnia ushered in the "age of sail" on that lake. The date is significant. The current is also an important part of the history of Sarnia, not only because La Salle had to pull the ship up the current, but also because it affects Great Lakes shipping, which began with Le Griffon's voyage. TheKurgan (talk) 03:28, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• Or that a local museum had a flood that caused it to briefly close some time in 2011?

Further expansion of topics per the request of the reviewer. TheKurgan (talk) 03:28, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Didn't ask you to give every little thing that happened there, only a little bit of an expansion. --Chip123456 (talk) 06:56, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Removed the portion of the museum section devoted to the floor and recovery. TheKurgan (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• Or that the city contains a wal-mart and several grocery stores (which are then listed).

The grocery stores are part of the infrastructure. The GA reviewer asked me to include them. TheKurgan (talk) 03:28, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I never asked that you put a Wal-Mart, when I said expansion of shopping I didn't mean every single shop.--Chip123456 (talk) 06:56, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I removed all mention of various stores by name and made that part of the article generic. TheKurgan (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

There are also clarity issues combined with trivialities. For example:

• “A year previous to the adoption of the name Port Sarnia, the village was composed of 44 taxpayers, 9 frame houses, 4 log houses, 2 brick dwellings, 2 taverns and 3 stores.” What year was the name adopted? Is it important to know the number of frame houses vs log houses?

The paragraph rework puts the sentence into context. It is a direct quote from the source, so I was loath to change it. TheKurgan (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• In general, the 750 words for the “name” section is far too much (in my opinion) and is large enough to almost warrant its own page.

The "Name" section is important to the city because it's gone through several names, and I quoted passages from Selden's Mare Clausum to cite a good source showing definitive proof of the history of the name. Another reason the Name section is so long is that another editor suggested that I put the Name material in its own section to keep the lead paragraph short. Before I expanded it, there were no citations and it was incomplete. TheKurgan (talk) 03:32, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Reworked entire Name and History sections. I think you'll like how it came out. TheKurgan (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• The neighbhourhood section is just a list with no context.

Have not had time to flesh this out yet. Will do so and add it to the Infrastructure section.

Have done a little more with the neighborhoods section.

TheKurgan (talk) 03:32, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• And I don’t think you need 3 separate measures of median income.

Changed it to one measure. TheKurgan (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I think the article needs a serious copy-edit to achieve GA standards, though I don’t think it requires much more new information to be added. Apart from references (of which there are many instances).

One man's trivia is another man's detail. TheKurgan (talk) 03:28, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I feel that this article should now be promoted from C-class to B-Class. I have not had time for a formal review, but I summarized my concerns above. The decision (and other recommendations) are, of course, up to the reviewer. Mattximus (talk) 20:01, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

The reviewer's name is Chip123456 User talk:Chip123456. TheKurgan (talk) 03:28, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I will read thoroughly through your concerns in due course. I have left some opinions under the ones that I have read.--Chip123456 (talk) 06:56, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Changes to Sarnia Article Based on Recommendations

I've made several changes to the article, moving the Infrastructure section to the Economy heading, and instead of listing specific stores in the retail section, made it generic. Is this acceptable? TheKurgan (talk) 14:13, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

This is hard. I agree with TheKurgan but agreed with what Mattximus has said. It would be really appreciated if some other editors can comment here and the on hold will be extended until another editor has shared their views. --Chip123456 (talk) 15:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I've also made some of the changes Mattximus has suggested. After reflection, I thought he had some valid points. TheKurgan (talk) 19:11, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Don't use bold. See MOS:BOLD--Chip123456 (talk) 06:15, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, Chip. This page is becoming cluttered and I wanted it to stand out to be easily read. I meant nothing else.TheKurgan (talk) 13:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

If there is a new message posted on here, it is in my watch list so I can see when a new message has been posted. There is no need to make it 'stand out' as I am informed.--Chip123456 (talk) 17:14, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Added clarifying material to the lead section regarding Le Griffon. TheKurgan (talk) 23:05, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for some reviews as previously said so sorry for the delay in deciding the articles status. IF I don't get anymore during this or start of next week, I think that the article may have to be rated as B-Class, but let's wait and see.--Chip123456 (talk) 16:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I'm being dense, here, Chip, but what more could I possibly do to make the article GA? I've done all the required changes, acceded to every recommendation except one (about Le Griffon). I'm actually going to go down to the bridge where there is a plaque about Le Griffon here in Sarnia today and snap a picture of the plaque for use in the article. As I said in my response to Mattximus, I feel the article is at least the equal of London, Ontario, which GA status.TheKurgan (talk) 16:25, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I suppose so. As the reviewer I have the say of pass or fail but I want to make sure that Mattximus is OK with the improvements, and will make the status decision after they have replied to your long message. This is because if another editor feels there is a problem I must listen to them, not just myself. --Chip123456 (talk) 17:14, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

To Mattximus: Hello, again,

I'm quite sorry if I got bent out of shape when I read your comments. I was still smarting from Silverchemist's thinly veiled attack on my credibility by saying he had problems with my supposed "facts." The quotes around facts REALLY irked me. Since I've spent nearly 45 hours total on the Sarnia article and want it to be of the highest standard, I didn't like his insinuation. In any event, I shouldn't have taken it out on you and I erased my comment to you that might have been hasty and snide. I've taken a lot of your comments to heart and have revamped the article, moving things around to make sections smaller (the Name section, specifically), and codifying the Economy and Infrastructure sections. I remembered you reverted one of my edits because I didn't need sub-sub-sections, and you were right. I combined the sections again under a main heading called "Economy and Infrastructure" with simple subheadings for "Retail and Hospitality," "Transportation," and "Health Care." Since you had pointed me in the direction of Lethbridge, I took the combination idea from that page. I do respectfully disagree that the article is only a B-Class article. It may not be FA status like Lethbridge yet, but it is certainly the equal of London, Ontario's article, which is GA. Thank you, though, for all of the help in keeping me on the right track. I WANT that GA rating!TheKurgan (talk) 23:34, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

TheKurgan is taking this far too personally. I can appreciate his/her passion for Wikipedia and thinking about an article in a possessive sense (I have fallen into that trap myself at times), but I do object to my comments (see below), being characterized as a "thinly veiled attack" on The Kurgan's credibility. I insinuated nothing about TheKurgan's contributions...I made general comments about the article, as is the purpose of a Talk page. Silverchemist (talk) 18:44, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, Silverchemist. What I objected to was the ""'s around facts, like "facts." Had you just said you had a problem with the facts, without the ""'s, I would not have felt insulted. Done and over with. I apologized to Mattximus and now I'll apologize to you. Let's move on and make the Sarnia article the GA article I know it is. Thank you for the help.TheKurgan (talk) 21:03, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done Per recommendation on the Talk:Sarnia page, I've removed all duplicate internal links except those in photo captions in order to conform to the overlinking criterion.TheKurgan (talk) 18:11, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Bad word wrap

insert a caption here

Hi! The TOC seems to be acting up on Opera, with a laptop ratio screen. Is there any way to fix the relationship between the image and the TOC box? -- Zanimum (talk) 19:42, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Image should be moved and others moved or outright removed - As per MOS:IMAGES "Avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other, or between an image and an infobox.". Moxy (talk) 20:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done Moved all images to left alignment, except the photo in the lead paragraph, which by MOS:IMAGES must be right aligned.TheKurgan (talk) 21:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Merci! -- Zanimum (talk) 22:00, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Bitteschoen!TheKurgan (talk) 03:08, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

The article is looking really good and the improvements are excellent. I have an idea of what status I would like to give the article, but will leave any more ideas, until this time tomorrow, If I don't hear anything I will assume there is nothing that can be more improved and will act on anything contributed or what is not contributed for improvements. --Chip123456 (talk) 18:40, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Chip, for recognizing all the work I put in on this article. In your recognition, however, do not forget Mattximus and Silverchemist. Although they and I had some squabbles, they, as they say, "kept me honest" and improved the article greatly. In fact, their knowledge and ideas would be instrumental in making the article GA instead of B. Also, Yankees76 helped very much in the early stages of Sarnia's article development. It's great to be a part of this team. I feel real pride in our accomplishments, and in the honour we did to Sarnia itself in presenting the best article we could. If you assign it GA status, I hope these team members will join me in the new quest to achieve FA status. If Sarnia winds up B instead, I hope the team continues to work and make it GA on the way to FA!TheKurgan (talk) 21:06, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Note, that my comment was not addressed toy you or anyone in particular, you've all done a fantastic job. --Chip123456 (talk) 15:06, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Agree vastly improved - GA more then warranted at this point. One point we have a ref for = Sarnia officially became a city as of 7 May, also adopting the title "The Imperial City".Moxy (talk) 22:09, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done Added the citation. I thought I already had. Must have accidentally erased it.TheKurgan (talk) 02:06, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

GA PASS

I am delighted to tell you I have passed the article early! Well done to everybody who has managed to help give it this status and thank you to editors eho have contributed on this page! --Chip123456 (talk) 15:35, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

PS--We're all delighted, too!TheKurgan (talk) 03:04, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, thank you to all who helped, especially Mattximus, Silverchemist, and Moxy. FA now or bust!!!TheKurgan (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Congrats, I'll try to help you to FA if time permits (I'm also on a similar quest to get Greater Sudbury to GA). Again, I strongly suggest using Lethbridge as a model which, because of it's size, is the perfect comparison page. I also think you should stagger the photos a bit. I know I'm contradicting a previous editor, but I think as long as you don't sandwich text between two pictures, you can alternate left/right for a more aesthetically pleasing article.Mattximus (talk) 02:38, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Point taken, Mattximus. When I breathe a little, I will help you get Sudbury to GA status. Lethbridge is a great article, and I will look at it for inspiration on my quest to get Sarnia to FA. Thanks again for all your help!TheKurgan (talk) 03:04, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Factual issues

While I applaud the efforts to improve the articles on Sarnia, I have some issues with the "facts" and how they are referenced.

Silverchemist, I just noticed you put facts in quotation marks. While I made mistakes in citing some references, I wasn't trying to gloss over anything or purposely present false information. I have corrected most of what you found and improved the article through those corrections, so, as I stated below, thank you for the help. The quotes around "facts" irked me, however, since I've spent the better part of forty hours work on the article trying to meet GA guidelines (and hopefully FA beyond that). I think that dig was unnecessary. If you're from Sarnia yourself, as I am, then let's work together to make the article as good as it can be!TheKurgan (talk) 16:11, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

The lede says that "Chemical Valley is also the reason that the World Health Organization named Sarnia the most polluted city in Canada" and references a newspaper article in The Star (I just fixed that link and reference). The newspaper article makes no mention of Chemical Valley saying only that "Sarnia, Ont., registered the highest Canadian pollution levels at 21.2. That’s pristine compared with the Iranian city of Ahwaz, which the WHO said posted pollution levels of 372."

 Done Added two more citations. These used to be in the article itself, but were moved when the separate article was created on "Environmental Impact."TheKurgan (talk) 14:29, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

There is also a potentially contentious statement that "Sarnia has been in decline since the late 1960s as the population ages, younger people move out of the city to other areas, and the demand for petrochemical projects lessens". Such a statement needs to be supported by some good references. The report referenced in the following sentence says nothing about Sarnia being in decline nor about demand for petrochemicals decreasing. It does project a population decline over the next decades as the population ages.

 Done Added an additional citation about the younger population moving out of the area and removed the statement about the petrochemical industry pending finding another citation.TheKurgan (talk) 14:29, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

The section on Climate states that " Most of Sarnia's snowfall is lake-effect snow" and references a newspaper article about one storm in particular (which, by the way, left very little snow in Sarnia), but says nothing about most of Sarnia's snow coming from lake effects. It may be true that Lambton County gets most of its snow that way, but anyone living in Sarnia or driving on Highway 402 can attest that lake effect snow occurs considerably east of Sarnia.

 Done Reworked the paragraph, added quotes, and change the sentences per your suggestion.TheKurgan (talk) 17:18, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

The section on environment, which is now its own article Environmental impact of the chemical industry in Sarnia talks about the number of smog days in Sarnia and references a government document. If one reads the detailed document, the number of smog days mentioned in the Wikipedia article is for the whole province of Ontario, and Sarnia's smog days are the same as most of southern Ontario, apart from a few "hot spots" like Hamilton.

 Done Corrected the data, fixed the reference, and added an additional citation on Transboundary Air Pollution, based on a 2005 study conducted by the Ministry of the Environment.TheKurgan (talk) 17:18, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

That Wikipedia article has a picture labeled "Aajimwnaang Resource Centre adjoining Chemical Valley, specifically TransAlta (formerly Dow)]]". The chemical plant shown is Lanxess, formerly Nova. It is NOT TransAlta and never was Dow.

 Done Corrected the photo caption to read Lanxess.TheKurgan (talk) 15:40, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I haven't looked over the entire article in such detail, but I will as time allows and will attempt to correct error and give references. Silverchemist (talk) 03:37, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the help, Silverchemist. I want the Sarnia article to be GA and then FA so I need all the help I can get to make sure the information is correct in the article! Anything you find that you can make better, please feel free! As they say, be bold!TheKurgan (talk) 15:40, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I rewrote that sentences and rearranged the references referring to Chemical Valley as being responsible for Sarnia's high particulate pollution. The World Health Organization report makes no mention of Chemical Valley nor makes any comment on the sources of particulate pollution. The WHO report can be found here [11]. The Ecojustice report makes no mention of the WHO study. The other reference says that most of the particulates come from the US.Silverchemist (talk) 19:43, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Periods

I've been doing some period moving in the article. Generally it's text.<ref></ref> as opposed to text<ref></ref>. That said, the ref inside the bracket is okay with me, up at the top of the article. -- Zanimum (talk) 14:44, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Clearwater and Sarnia Township

It would be appreciated if some reference to Sarnia Township as an administrative and geographical entity. I gather that at some time it was renamed the town of Clearwater, but I cannot find it on Wikipedia--and only by inference elsewhere. Sarnia Township is on a map of 1951, and then -- what? --Oldontarian (talk) 11:00, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Government

All eight Councilors are from Sarnia. Four sit on City Council and four sit on City Council and the Council of the County of Lambton. 206.132.54.76 (talk) 04:40, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Fries Under The Bridge

Finally found a couple of good references for including this Sarnia staple in the page as its own subheading. The article feels more complete now!There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 01:59, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

An editor removed the Fries Under the Bridge entry that I had made, stating that mentioning the fry establishment by name was advertising. I agreed with that, so I removed the specific reference to the fry establishment and simply made the entry generic..."popular fry establishment."There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 15:13, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Refs in the lead

WP:CITELEAD says "Because the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material."

The current lead is bloated with unnecessary citations for information that is repeated in the body of the article. As is the general convention, the sources should not be placed in the lead, as that is not appropriate for a summary of the article to follow. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 12:17, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you feel that way, Floydian, but WP:CITELEAD also says the following:

"... there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads. The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article."

Because there is no broad consensus, the citations will stay in the lead. I feel it is neither bloated nor unnecessary, especially because FA reviewers have told me to cite everything. In the interests of fair play, however, I will make the changes to remove the citations in the lead if the consensus is to do so. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 12:22, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not going to further revert you, but I am going to point you to WP:BRD, because the attitude of "There is no consensus, so my change will stay" is somewhat hostile. Everything should be cited, but since the lead is a summary of the article, any points made in it are repeated in the remainder of the article and are generally cited at that point. Medical articles and BLPs with controversial statements are generally the exception on this, but I started this discussion since we have opposite views, to encourage input from other editors. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 15:16, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Floydian, I am not being hostile. The rule that you quoted says that there is no prohibition; furthermore, unless there is a broad consensus to change something, it should stay the way it is. I also said that if a consensus agrees that there should be no citations at all in the lead , or minimized citations, or something else, I will go with the consensus. How is that hostile? It seems reasonable to me. Let's just wait for the consensus. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:09, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Definition of Cold

Originally, I had couched the text of the climate paragraph to include the phrase "winters are cool." As shown by the climate data, the average temperature in January is 0 C (32 F). An author revised it to say cold. I reverted the edit because 0 C is not cold by Canadian standards, nor by northern U.S. standards. The editor's rationale was this: Latest revision as of 14:36, 28 April 2014 (edit) (undo) (thank) Jim Michael (talk | contribs) (Undid - this is a world encyclopedia. Whilst not as severely cold as many Canadian cities' winters, it is cold by world standards, with snow on the ground for weeks.)

Rather than engage in a useless edit war, I put it to the Wikipedia editing public at large. Is an average temperature of 0 C cold or cool? There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 19:25, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

See Cold :-) . You could only make that statement relative to something - cooler than, warmer than, etc. the panda ₯’ 19:48, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate the relativity of the situation. The point is: Relative to the rest of the world, would an average temperature of 0 C be cold or cool? Obviously, to someone in Saharan Africa, 0 C will be extremely cold; however, to someone from Helsinki, it'd be positively balmy. I disagree with the assessment of 0 C being cold, but, as stated, seek to avoid an edit war with Jim Michael.

There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:53, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I would have said that it's warm in the winter, but I live in a place where −16 °C (3 °F) is spring. I would go with what is stated at Dfb which is cold. By the way the average January temperature is −4.8 °C (23.4 °F). It can be a problem throughout Canadian community articles. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 21:09, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

In the absence of any general consensus, I concede the "cold" assessment even though it doesn't coincide with Canadian norms. Should there be consent on the side of "cool" later, I shall make the edit.There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 02:45, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Was Prime Minister Mackenzie ever a mayor?

The archived list of mayors shows three named MacKenzie:

• 1857: H. F. MacKenzie
• 1864: Robert MacKenzie
• 1878: Daniel MacKenzie

...but no Alexander Mackenzie. I caanot confirm that the Prime Minister was ever Mayor of Sarnia, only that he is buried there. wbm1058 (talk) 01:23, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

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"Overwhelmingly white"

That wording seems.... odd to me. I don't see what's so overwhelming about white people. Alex of Canada (talk) 18:06, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

I was one of the reviewers of the original promotion, and while Sarnia is indeed "overwhelmingly white", I do agree that it is not the most encyclopedic word choice. "Primarily" works better, but I can see "predominately" working as well. Mattximus (talk) 01:50, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree, it's a bit open to interpretation. Other choices are "predominantly"/"predominately" or "primarily" (according to Google: "mainly; for the most part" e.g. "a predominantly rural state") J Hooper (talk) 20:41, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

It was Brianboulton who suggested "overwhelmingly" as part of the Featured Article review process that I abandoned because I didn't have time to do it by myself. In fact, "overwhelmingly" was chosen INSTEAD of "predominantly." Therefore, I reject "predominantly." I DO, however, concede that "primarily" would work if "overwhelmingly" does not fit with your particular worldview. I say this even though Sarnia IS overwhelmingly white. I just made the edit to primarily. Cheers.

There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 07:47, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Tonnage

@TheKurgan: Ship tonnage is a measure of volume, not weight. It cannot be measured in tonnes, and it cannot be converted to either short or long tons. See Tonnage and Builder's Old Measurement. The size of Griffon is not known exactly; sources give 40 tuns,[12] or 45 or 60 tons[13]. Kendall-K1 (talk) 13:02, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Sarnia Bayfest

I know the bookkeeper for Sarnia Bayfest personally. We were chatting about it two Sundays ago. They have turned in their charter and have liquidated all assets, and Sarnia Bayfest, as it existed before, is no more. Understandably, this most likely won't be published in the newspaper. A different group of volunteers has created Bluewater Borderfest, which is a MUCH smaller endeavor. I have plenty of links to the new festival. The Sarnia article still says that "Bayfest is planning for the future." I know this to be untrue, but I don't want to jeopardize the article's "Good" rating by posting something without a secondary source. Would a good compromise be something like "Bluewater Borderfest has taken over for Sarnia Bayfest for now and the foreseeable future?" You know, not mentioning the liquidation but still not giving false hope to the reader that Bayfest will be back as it used to be because it won't. Asking the hive mind. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 21:19, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

I removed it from the lead and reduced the amount of detail in the Culture section. Kendall-K1 (talk) 21:33, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Satellite image

User:TheKurgan has added a photo and caption of a satellite photo of Sarnia. My concern is that the photo is of little relevance, and is primarily decorative. The image is 18 years old, so it is hardly as accurate as a Google satellite image (which is linked in the infobox). Adding historic artwork from notable artists is certainly beneficial, but just because a local boy flies over and takes a picture doesn't mean it is necessarily relevant, per MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE, which states "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative". The input of others would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:35, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

• Magnolia677 discounts the daytime photo, which Chris Hadfield snapped from the space shuttle, and the nighttime photo, which Chris Hadfield snapped while in command of the International Space Station, as irrelevant. They're relevant in that they show both Sarnia's and Canada's connection to space flight. After all, the Space Shuttle was equipped with the Canadarm while it was still flying. Additionally, the shot of Sarnia at night was coordinated by Hadfield using social media, which was a first for space flight. In fact, Hadfield's songs, short videos, and tweets live from the ISS made history. The photos aren't just "decorative." They are integral parts of Sarnia's history.

• By Magnolia677's rationale, we should also remove the satellite image of Paris from the Paris Wikipedia page because it's not current. Having been taken by an unmanned satellite, it is also impersonal whereas the Sarnia photos were snapped by a favorite son who became a famous astronaut. BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG difference.There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 19:04, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia photos must be relevant, per MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE. Just because a photo is nostalgic, or is intended to conjure some imaginary "connection to space", or demonstrates a fondness for some person who wrote songs about a place (or took a picture of it)...does not mean the photo should be featured in a Wikipedia article. The satellite image is stale, and this isn't Facebook. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

The photos are relevant, and you, Magnolia677, are, to put it bluntly, wrong. How could you POSSIBLY think that Sarnia's connection to space flight is imaginary? Chris Hadfield is FROM SARNIA. That's like saying Bonn has no connection to symphonic music even though Beethoven was from there. Also, you don't seem to know what it was that Hadfield sang about on the ISS. He didn't sing songs about Sarnia. He recorded the first music video in space, David Bowie's "Space Oddity," which has more than 43 million views on YouTube. New York, Boston, Paris, and Berlin all have satellite photos on their pages. Some are even from the ISS. I suppose that we should remove those for being "primarily decorative," right? Quite frankly, I resent your stale condescension.There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 13:10, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

This issue is done and dusted again. Magog the Ogre uploaded a free satellite image of Sarnia. While this one is stale because it's impersonal, I thank Magog the Ogre for doing so if only to stop the arguing. Cheers to all.There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 12:55, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Record July Temperature

Well, ain't that a pip. The Weather Underground page didn't update one of the frames when I reloaded it! Grrrr. One frame said it was 100 F, and the byline said it was 98 F. Because it's impossible to know which one is right, there's no point in updating the page.There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 21:37, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

TheKurgan. I looked at this and neither Sarnia (35.3 C) or Sarnia Climate (35.3 C) show 100 °F (38 °C) or 98 °F (37 °C) on that day. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 15:52, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

This is a case of truth vs. "the record." The actual high temperature in Sarnia that day was 42 C (107.6 F). That was a shade temperature I measured myself. I know this to be true because I have photos of the external thermometer in my car that show it clearly. I know I can't use it on here because Wikipedia is only about what can be proved through citation and not about truth. That's understandable. I might even call it reasonable. But, that doesn't change the fact that a weather record was set, and we cannot use the data because it's not "official." The point in Sarnia where the 38.77 C was registered was St. Alban's Park, not Chris Hadfield Airport. Oh, well. When I noticed the data wasn't 100-percent, I reverted my own edit so that it was still official. I brought this article up to GA status, and I don't want to lose that because of some technicality.There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 18:38, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Puffery in lead

User:TheKurgan has reverted attempts to remove the following from the lead section:

"Four-time Emmy winner Michael Learned starred as Daisy Werthan in a 2010 production of Driving Miss Daisy at the Imperial Theatre."

Michael Learned and her four Emmys have no connection to this article, and this puffery should be removed. The input of others would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:42, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

References

First of all, my reversion was reverted. I said to myself, fine, I will simply rewrite it. How, pray tell, is the fact that a renowned actress performed in Sarnia not relevant to the city's cultural significance? That such a small city could attract such a renowned actress speaks to the quality of the theatre culture in Sarnia. Look, you can't have it both ways. You and some other guy objected to "graced the stage," so I said, OK, I'll change it. I changed it to be more sterile and happened to include the fact that Michael Learned earned four Emmys. Heaven forbid I commit the cardinal sin of BOOSTERISM! *GASP* It always amuses me that people can write all sorts of negative stuff about someplace in that place's article, and as long as they source it properly, no one EVER accuses them of anti-boosterism or being too negative. As soon as someone says something really NICE about a place, even with accurate sources, people like you come out of the woodwork shouting "puffery," "boosterism," and all sorts of other things similar. Your condescension is still showing. It's not becoming to you.

You think you're so high and mighty, but I shall share with you a saying my mother used: You still put your pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us. Now, you are probably accusing me in your mind of being a "gatekeeper" of this article. Well, after the work I have put in over the last seven years, it is MY article. I'm the one who took a poor page of about three paragraphs and spent what is probably more than 150 hours on it, all told, MYSELF. Then, you and the other guy come along and act like God's gift to WikiPedia. The other guy even commented, "How was this ever a Good Article?" Well, if that guy had BOTHERED to read the talk page and see the EXTENSIVE documentation of the GA Approval process, he'd have seen, "How this is a Good Article." You and he probably have dozens of articles you've created and maintained, so you think telling others what to do is your birthright. I say, "Hogwash." I'm trying to be civil here, Magnolia677, but you certainly make that difficult. Oh, and sarcasm is not uncivil. Still, to placate you and he so that you leave me and my article alone, I removed the citation from the lead. My blood pressure doesn't need uncivil condescension to drive it up. Good day.There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 19:54, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

@TheKurgan: Thanks for being a good sport and reverting your edit. You know, my mother used to say "just follow your dreams"! The problem is, half the time I can't remember my dreams when I wake up, and sometimes—in the middle of a dream—I find myself saying "hey dream, where are you going?" I mean, how can you follow your dreams if you don't know where they're going? Anyway, please take a moment to read Wikipedia:Ownership of content. In a nutshell, Wikipedia articles are kind of like that parking spot on the road in front of your house. It's totally your favourite place to park, and you get soooo pissed when anyone else parks there, but at the end of the day, it's not yours, and never will be yours. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:34, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Now, why on EARTH can't you reply this way every time? Why do you sound like Sam the Eagle from the Muppet Show all the time except this time, when you actually sound like you might *gasp* be cool? Haha. Oh, I know all about "Ownership of content" and how it's not "my article." I've got news for you, however. It IS my article. I put in all the hours. I appreciate all of the help I've gotten, both during and since the GA process, but at the end of the day, I'm the one who did all the heavy lifting. I know what the policy is, and the policy is wrong.There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

I would tend to agree politely that this factoid should not be in the lead of the article. Sarnia is not known as a cultural centre, or having a significant artistic presence. Any reader unfamiliar with the city reading the lead would get a very different impression than how it is. It remains, at least for now, primarily a petrochemical industrial centre. Mattximus (talk) 03:11, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

So, I guess the world-famous artists who have had exhibitions at the Judith-Norman Alix Gallery mean nothing? Or the world-famous performers with the International Symphony Orchestra the same? Or the jazz musicians? Or the major rock and country artists that came to Bayfest? Or the artists who come to Bluewater Borderfest? Hey, you know what? Why don't I make up something BAD about Sarnia? You know, just write it in without sourcing it? Bet no one would care! *smirk*There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 21:12, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

"Guess the world-famous artists who have had exhibitions at the Judith-Norman Alix Gallery mean nothing" Actually yes, that does mean nothing in this context. It doesn't really matter where an International Symphony once performed, or a painting of Picasso once was loaned. Those are both completely trivial and should not be in the main article of *any* city. A major museum dedicated to Picasso, for sure, include that in the city page. Even the place Picasso painted sure, include that in the city page. But not a place that his paintings once visited, that is very much trivial. Mattximus (talk) 16:30, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Mattximus, I PLAYUSED TO PLAY in the International Symphony Orchestra, which is based in Sarnia and plays 12 concerts a season, six on each side of the border. It's been there since 1957. (Because of the puffery of Magnolia677's shirt, accusing me of impropriety with no basis whatsoever, I changed this to "used to play" because I am currently on a leave of absence from the orchestra, which is now likely also defunct because of the pandemic)There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 18:56, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

First Nations' History relating to Sarnia

Removing the information about the First Nations in Sarnia and the surrounding area is the height of white supremacy when completely relevant information is reduced to a single paragraph without any context at all. I find it HIGHLY offensive that the material was removed given that members of the three tribes that formed the Three Fires Confederacy STILL LIVE IN SARNIA on their reserves. And, to be perfectly blunt, people who don't know these things shouldn't edit these things about which they do not know. End of.There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 03:58, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

When you say "the surrounding area", you are referring to the entire region of Huronia, which was eliminated after the Beaver Wars. There were no permanent Native settlements in the area of Sarnia when settlement of the area took place in the 1820s and 1830s. There were some travelling Chippewa groups that used the waterways. Regardless, the article for the city of Sarnia is not the place for five paragraphs covering the general affairs of the native population in Michigan and Ontario; it would be duplicated across hundreds of articles otherwise. Link to the Three Fires Confederacy page and improve upon that. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 15:36, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, Floydian, but you are wrong. the Aamjiwnaang First Nation had a population of 15,000 in 1800, and it was located on the land upon which Sarnia sits. In fact, the Aamjiwnaang reserve is still in the city. Two treaties, Detroit in 1807 and Treaty 29 in 1827, ceded all of the lands to both Michigan and the British Colonial Government. I consider 15,000 to be a significant presence given that Sarnia today only has about four times that number of people in it. From 1827 on, the First Nations population lived on the four reserves created for them, two on either side of the river.

I also maintain that removing the First Nations history from the city's page is white supremacy. And, despite your protestations, it is not an "unfounded accusation." The current "early history" single paragraph could be removed from the article, and its absence would be of minimal effect. You and Magnolia erased the entire history of the First Nations and replaced that history with three or four sentences about a few French and English where there were 15,000 First Nations folks living there. It's akin to Land-O-Lakes butter changing its packaging so that the racist depiction of the First Nations woman was removed; their change was seen as, "Keep the land, get rid of the Indian." You're doing the same thing.

For now, I'm not going to belabor the point further here. There's no point in doing so. You two are clearly wrong and won't admit it. Therefore, I am going to keep the text of what should be in the article because I wrote it. I bid you, "Good day."There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 19:12, 4 May 2022 (UTC) There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 19:12, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

First off, I'll give you a chance to retract your accusations of white supremacist views against fellow editors, before I myself will "go to the Wikipedia powers that be" (that's WP:ANI by the by). Second, Sarnia occupies about 16 km of the over 350 km of waterfront on the waterway between Lake Huron and Lake Erie. I'm not saying there shouldn't be coverage of the First Nations that lived in and around Sarnia, but it should not be a complete rundown of the history of the Chippewa peoples or the Three Fires Confederacy who travelled a massive range from Hudson's Bay to the Finger Lakes of New York to Lake Michigan and beyond. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 20:41, 4 May 2022 (UTC)