Talk:Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke

Ancestry

A section on his ancestors was deleted https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Richard_de_Clare,_2nd_Earl_of_Pembroke&diff=1119091386&oldid=1119087294.

The reason given is lack of relevance and unreliable source. I think this family tree is highly relevant (it makes connections that give insight into the factions that Strongbow would have been connected to by marriage and descent), and it has useful links. I do accept the source does not meet the criteria for reliability but if the original editor or someone could source a journal or book with this family tree I think it should go in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimHolden (talk • contribs) 14:36, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Untitled

"He was buried in Dublin's Christ Church Cathedral where an alleged effigy can be viewed...."

And a few lines further down:

"Strongbow is actually buried in the graveyard of the Ferns Cathedral in Ferns, Ireland, where his grave can be seen in the graveyard."

Which is it??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.216.28.130 (talk) 12:31, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I think the Ferns claim is doubtful. Especially as was cursed by the bishop of Ferns :-) Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:22, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Was he really the "2nd Earl of Pembroke? If he was deprived, as some sources say he was, by Henry II, should he not be styled "Earl of Styrgil"? Any other sources to support the claim that he was deprived of Pembroke? Laurel Lodged (talk)

He was under Stephen. Warren (Henry II, 193) says Richard probably lost the title of earl of Pembroke after Henry II gained the throne. Emily Amt (Accession of Henry II, 25) says Henry never recognized Richard as Earl of Pembroke and deliberately suppressed many of Stephen's Earls. "Earl Strigoil" (a nickname not a title) or "Strongbow" (his father's nickname he inherited) were what his contemporaries called him after Henry failed to recognize him as earl of Pembroke. If you have access to the Complete Peerage vol. X, see: pp. 352-57 & Appendix H, pp. 102-04, which I don't have right here. But it may give you more answers. That's all I have in my notes. Bearpatch (talk) 02:47, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Place and Date of Birth

I would appreciate some citations to back up his year of birth and as to why Tonbridge in Kent is shown as his place of birth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlwynJPie (talk • contribs) 15:50, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Marriage and children

Basilia is usually given as Strongbow's sister, not his (illegitimate) daughter. Most sources also indicate her birthdate as 1116 and Strongbow's as 1125, making it impossible for her to be his daughter! In fairness many of the sources I have examined are genealogy sites and cannot be relied upon. Some give her dob as late as 1130, still much too early to be Strongbow's daughter. quotes from an 1878 Compendium of Irish Biography that Strongbow "was glad to secure his [Raymond Le Gros] aid by giving him the hand of his sister [Basilia]". The marriage to Robert de Quincy probably relates to Alina, also correctly cited here as Strongbow's daughter. Alternatively it could be a later marriage of Basilia, following Raymond's death

Frank Parker31.200.130.112 (talk) 17:11, 14 February 2014 (UTC) Frank Parker.

References

Conflicting dates

From the entry: "In 1167, Diarmait Mac Murchada was deprived of the Kingdom of Leinster by the High King of Ireland - Rory O'Connor (Irish: Tairrdelbach mac Ruaidri Ua Conchobair). The grounds for the dispossession were that MacMurrough had, in 1152, abducted Derbforgaill, the wife of the King of Breifne, Tiernan O'Rourke (Irish: Tighearnán Ua Ruairc). To recover his kingdom, MacMurrough solicited help from the King of England - Henry II. The deposed king embarked for Bristol from near Bannow on 1 August 1166. He met Henry in Aquitaine in the Autumn of 1166."

According to this, MacMurrough went to Henry II in 1166, to ask for help in getting his kingdom back. But MacMurrough's kingdom wasn't taken away from him until the following year, in 1167.

Also, is the date of the abduction correct -- 1152? That's 15 years before MacMurrough has his land taken away.

Risssa (talk) 23:51, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Aoife/Eva/Eve

In the section "Marriage and Children" the article says he married Aoife MacMurrough "anglicized as Eva". A few paragraphs later it describes his death and refers to an "Eve" who was given her dower rights. This is the only appearance of the name "Eve" in the article. In the next paragraph it says that his widow "Aoife" lived on after his death. I think the references to Eve and Aoife are referring to the same woman, but as written it doesn't read at all as if that is the case and is very confusing. CodeTalker (talk) 01:07, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

Unencyclopedic Questions

I don't think we put in questions like this, do we? "Two interesting questions arise for which there is no known extant contemporary records. Did Richard de Clare perhaps meet the man who would be his daughter's husband in the 1173 rebellion of the young King Henry? Would Richard de Clare have approved of the knight William Marshal who married his daughter Isabel and not only regained all the land, castles and titles that Richard de Clare should have inherited, but added greatly to them?[21] I'm in favour of deleting them. IceDragon64 (talk) 22:13, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Use of the descriptive ‘Welsh-Norman’ in lede

I have removed the term ‘Welsh-Norman’ from the article’s lede and have replaced it with the term Anglo-Norman. I don’t believe any historian has ever described Strongbow as a Welsh-Norman, though I am aware of the fact that a minority of Irish historians have indeed described him as a Cambro-Norman. However, the use of the descriptive Cambro-Norman in relation to Strongbow is contraversial and perhaps misleading. My reasons for making the change are:

• Most historians in both Ireland and England have (and continue to) described Strongbow as being an Anglo-Norman. Indeed, all history textbooks used in post-primary education in the Republic of Ireland sanction the term Anglo-Norman, including in reference to Strongbow. Only a minority of Irish historians use the term Cambro-Norman, whereas the vast majority of historians in Ireland and internationally continue to use the term Anglo-Norman in reference to Strongbow and other English noblemen based in medieval Wales. Also, most of the sources employed in this article, including the Encyclopaedia Brittanica, use the term Anglo-Norman in relation to Strongbow.
• The terms Welsh-Norman or Cambro-Norman imply that Strongbow was Welsh, or perhaps of mixed Welsh and Norman stock. Strongbow and his father were both born in England and held an English title, which meant they paid homage to the King of England. Just because Strongbow was based in modern-day Wales doesn’t mean he should be described as being a Welsh-Norman. Indeed, many people forget that Herefordshire, Shropshire and even Cheshire were once considered to be in Wales during this period. Yet, historians who employ the term Cambro-Norman to English noblemen in Wales never apply the term to English noblemen in the aforementioned counties, despite these counties being equally ‘part’ of Wales as Pembrokeshire and Striguil. The term Cambro-Norman is therefore misleading and problematic.

Upon taking these facts into account, I believe that the decision to label Strongbow as an Anglo-Norman was justified. Margalant (talk) 18:27, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

ODNB references need work

In addition to the possible copyright violation that was reported at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2018 May 31, this article's ODNB references are a bit messed up. In particular, some refs are to "Flanagan, Bud", but he is almost certainly not the M. T. Flanagan that wrote the ODNB article. I cannot reference the ODNB article itself so I don't know this for sure. The link to "Flanagan, Bud" at ODNB is to Bud Flanagan, a comedian that (probably) did not write for the ODNB. On the assumption that this is in error, I will change these to just the (unlinked) "Flannagan" used in the other refs.

As a separate issue, all of the references to "Flanagan, Oxford Dictionary of Biography" should be consolidated into a single ref. I will do this piecemeal because thye articel is likely to get a bunch of edits fro others to mitigate the possible copyvio. Finally, the ODNB article derives from a DNB article, so I will add that to this consolidated ref so folk who cannot access ODNB can at least see the very old version. -Arch dude (talk) 18:08, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• Done. -Arch dude (talk) 04:55, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

• Another issue with using the ODNB (or the DNB) is that they have extensive references. Ideally, we would track those references down and cite them instead of citing the DNB. I have done this for some of the references for some of the DNB articles I have created. I'm not sure how useful this really is, though, since a casual reader will rarely look at the references and a serious reader will be able to find them on their own. The article in the original DNB is very long at more than four pages instead of the usual half-a-page or less, and it has quite a few references. -Arch dude (talk) 15:03, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://doi.org/10.1093/ref:odnb/5447. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

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tone

"There are no known extant records of the personal lives of Richard de Clare and Eve. We know that this young red-haired son of Gilbert de Clare Earl of Pembroke survived the years of being deprived of his rightful inheritance. He took the gamble that Dermot MacMurchada offered. He conquered and re-constituted his inherited lordship of Leinster, married the golden-haired Eve, and re-gained the respect of king Henry II. Two interesting questions arise for which there is no known extant contemporary records. Did Richard de Clare perhaps meet the man who would be his daughter's husband in the 1173 rebellion of the young King Henry? Would Richard de Clare have approved of the knight William Marshal who married his daughter Isabel and not only regained all the land, castles and titles that Richard de Clare should have inherited, but added greatly to them?"

seems inappropriate

To be or not to be (discrepancies)

No, seriously, I’ve started editing the page to resolve some ambiguous phrasing and to make it more wiki-like. Richard’s nickname seems to be a misconception, but at the same time it is given in Norman, as if they called him that. It’s also said that it was rendered Strongbow in the 14th century, but it doesn’t specify by who. Another problem is the earldom of pembroke: how can a title not be recognized and get revoked at the same time? Vittoriobr (talk) 19:57, 22 January 2024 (UTC)