Talk:2016 Taiwanese general election

Page move

Taiwan was the original title of the article. There was discussion about renaming on the talk page since July 2015 without reaching consensus, so the title should remain as original. Mind RGloucester 's disruptive behavior of preventing others to revert by making meaningless edit on the page of the other name. --Coco977 (talk) 18:19, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

"Taiwan" was not the original title of this article. The original title of this article was the present title, Republic of China general election, 2016, as one can see here. The only thing I've done is revert bold moves, which have not attained consensus, and which deviates from all other articles in Category:Presidential elections in the Republic of China. RGloucester — ☎ 18:22, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

The person that wants to change the stable title is the one who should makes the requested move. The stable title was Taiwanese until you moved it and prevent others to revert you. WP:NC-GAL says to use the format "Demonym type election/referendum, date". The common Demonym of ROC is Taiwanese.--Coco977 (talk) 18:31, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

No, the stable title was RoC. Another editor made a bold move, I reverted it. Likewise with yours. If any editor wants a change in such circumstances, they are supposed to open an WP:RM, not move war for eternity. In an RM, we could discuss the merits of each potential title, and what to do with all of the articles in the relevant categories (Category:Presidential elections in the Republic of China, Category:Legislative elections in the Republic of China). RGloucester — ☎ 18:44, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

No, Taiwanese was stable for months until you moved it and prevent others to revert you.[1],[2]--Coco977 (talk) 18:52, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Tagging a redirect does not prevent a revert. Anyone can request a revert at WP:RM/TR. Regardless of that, the original bold move was objectionable, and I reverted it per WP:BRD, because all other articles in the series, and the categories themselves, use the present title. This is the title under which the article was created, and indeed, the stable title before a series of move wars, involving various editors, most recently, you. RGloucester — ☎ 18:54, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Further arguing in this thread is pointless. As I mentioned elsewhere, a WP:RM needs to be opened. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 18:57, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 30 July 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. If the move is proposed again in future, somebody ought to list all the other articles that might also need to be changed, such as President of the Republic of China, Elections in the Republic of China, Administrative divisions of the Republic of China and Category:Legislative elections in the Republic of China. EdJohnston (talk) 02:49, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

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Republic of China general election, 2016 → Taiwanese general election, 2016 – According to WP:NC-GAL: For elections and referendums, use the format "Demonym type election/referendum, date". The common Demonym of ROC is Taiwanese. The usage of Republic of China is confusing for readers not familiar with cross-strait relations. Coco977 (talk) 19:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose – There are many cases in which the 'demonym' specified by NC-GAL is put aside, where the demonym is either unclear or otherwise controversial. The idea that 'Taiwanese' is a demonym for the RoC is a bit strange, but I don't want to start a nonsense argument suggesting that this page be moved to 'Chinese general election, 2016'. Putting that aside for the moment, any discussion of this article's title requires addressing all articles in the categories Category:Legislative elections in the Republic of China and Category:Presidential elections in the Republic of China per WP:CONSISTENCY. In this case, I must oppose the proposed move. 'Taiwanese' does not encompass the scope of these elections per WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE. These are not Taiwanese provincial elections (the provincial assembly no longer exists), they are elections to the post of 'President of the Republic of China', and to the Legislative Yuan. Whilst the common name of the country is 'Taiwan', the state entity itself is called the 'Republic of China'. There is no 'President of Taiwan', nor a 'Legislative Yuan' of Taiwan. Indeed, the relevant president and parliament also govern areas outside of Taiwan, notably in Fujian Province. Furthermore, when considering the question of the rest of the articles in the series, one wonders when elections would start becoming 'Taiwanese', as this entity was recognised by the UN as the legitimate government of all of China until the 1970s. The whole thing is rather a minefield, with high levels of ambiguity, and the smartest solution is to leave well alone per WP:TITLECHANGES. Any editor that types 'Taiwanese' will still find this article, but we won't have to worry about the PoV implications and misrepresented scope of an article titled 'Taiwanese'. RGloucester — ☎ 22:09, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

In English speaking world, the word Taiwan does not only represent the island or the province, but is widely used as the name for the state. If you google "Tsai Ing-wen", [3],[4], most news articles in the media uses "Taiwanese presedient" or "President of Taiwan" etc, while Republic of China nearly does not appear at all. Furthermore, the word Taiwan appears on the website of the Taiwanese office of the president [5], and on the cover of the Taiwanese passport, even for residents in Kinmen and Matsu (Fujian Province), which suggests that Taiwan is the official alternative name for the country. So WP:PRECISE is not a problem for using the Taiwan, and WP:CONCISE suggests that the more representative name Taiwan should be used. For the categories, we could create category for both ROC and Taiwan, while most elections belongs to both, one includes pre-1949 ROC elections and the other includes Taiwanese elections under japanese rule.--Coco977 (talk) 03:12, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

"Taiwan" is not representative of the reality. There is no "state" of Taiwan. No one posits that there is such, not the DPP, not the KMT, and not the government of the PRC.

RGloucester — ☎ 04:15, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Like it or not, Taiwan is the name everybody use in English for the state.--Coco977 (talk) 04:25, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

There is no "state". No one, under international law, acknowledges the existence of a "State of Taiwan", nor has anyone proclaimed one. There is either the "RoC" as the government of "China", the "PRC" as the government of "China", and either a breakaway government in Taiwan or a breakaway government on the mainland, depending on one's point of view. Some people who live in RoC-governed Taiwan wish to become independent from China, i.e. from the RoC or the PRC, as a "State of Taiwan". However, no one acknowledges a state that is "Taiwan", only a "state" that is "China", in some form or another. The country, on the other hand, is commonly called "Taiwan". However, the existence of a country, commonly called "Taiwan", is not the same as the existence of a "State of Taiwan". Compare the position of Scotland within Britain, for example. Scotland is a country, and also a region with a devolved government, but it is not a state. Countries do not have political infrastructure, states do. These elections are proper to the state structure, not to the country commonly called "Taiwan". RGloucester — ☎ 05:05, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Both sides of the Taiwan strait has it's own government and political infrastructure, and neither side is a higher authority that has control over the other. The elections are for the positions in the political entity which is referred to as Taiwan in English.--Coco977 (talk) 05:47, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

• Support per the naming guideline and the fact that the main article for the country is at Taiwan. Number 57 22:19, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
• Note that this might affect the titles of all but one of Category:Legislative elections in the Republic of China and all of Category:Presidential elections in the Republic of China and Category:Republic of China National Assembly elections. —  AjaxSmack  02:12, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose current proposal (i.e. procedural oppose). – if this needs to be moved, a whole suite of articles (and, as pointed about above, categories too) will need to be moved as well. I suggest that this is the wrong forum for this decision – I advise a wider, almost project-wide WP:RfC be held over whether these kinds of articles should be at "Republic of China" or "Taiwan". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:01, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

• Question: Could supporters give unrelated examples of instances on Wikipedia where the demonym or the common name of the country differs from the official state name and the demonym/common-name is used in article titles that compare to this one? I do personally agree that ROC and PRC sound so very similar that "Taiwanese" would be much much clearer and much more immediately understood, but I would need other unrelated examples on Wikipedia before being convinced. Softlavender (talk) 03:37, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Two obvious examples are American and British election articles, neither of which use demonyms due to supposed controversy about the scope of the terms "American" and "British". "Taiwanese" is not clearer, as it implies that this election would elect a "President of Taiwan", when no such post exists. "Taiwan" is a geographical area under the governance of the "Republic of China", an entity of older and larger provenance. Indeed, labelling these elections as "Taiwanese" would imply "Taiwan independence", or "Taiwan as a sovereign state", both of which are political positions, and not neutral descriptions in line with WP:NPOV. Furthermore, these elections are not "Taiwanese" in the sense of being proper to "Taiwan". The question of what is "Taiwanese" is a difficult one, and not a place where Wikipedia should tread. If we do tread there, I will say once again that we'd need to address what to do with earlier articles about elections in the post-exile RoC. Labelling RoC election articles from the period when the UN and the international community recognised the RoC as the legitimate government of all China, despite exile in Taiwan, as "Taiwanese", would be a much more obvious mistake than renaming this article.

More fundamentally, a move to "Taiwanese xxxx election, xxxx" would not comply with WP:NC-GAL, as the demonym for the Republic of China is "Chinese", which we obviously cannot use here for the same reasons we cannot use "Taiwanese". In as much as a legal entity exists, and in as much as there is a dispute over that entity, the only neutral solution is to use the extant and actual name, as opposed to taking a side in the dispute. WP:TITLECHANGES clearly applies here. The ideal solution is the present one, and any move here will result in unsatisfactory aftershocks. RGloucester — ☎ 04:16, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

I asked for supporters to give me examples of article titles which reflect demonyms or common names instead of official state names. Softlavender (talk) 04:31, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

@Softlavender: Yes, there are plenty; see the contents of Category:Elections in North Korea (North Korea is officially the Democratic People's Republic of Korea), Category:Elections in South Korea (South Korea is officially the Republic of Korea), Category:Elections in East Germany (East Germany was officially the German Democratic Republic). These are all cases where the common name of the country was used for the article title and the matching demonym was used for articles. Number 57 07:46, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Of course, neither "North Korea" nor "East Germany" are controversial designations that lie at the heart of a great political question, and are hence not comparable. RGloucester — ☎ 13:03, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

@Softlavender:The official name of Greece is "Hellenic Republic", and the demonym is Greek (Greek legislative election, September 2015). "The Kingdom of the Netherlands" is The official name and the demonym is Dutch.(Dutch general election, 2012)--Coco977 (talk) 03:19, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

• Support. See The World Factbook, the CMOS-recommended source for country names. Their article doesn't use "Republic of China" anywhere. The vast majority of English-speakers think in terms of "China" and "Taiwan." To use the terms like "People's Republic of China" and "Republic of China" to distinguish between physically different states that exist in the same historical era is unusual off Wikipedia. Fernando Danger (talk) 09:05, 1 August 2016 (UTC) Struck !vote by confirmed sock of site-banned user. Favonian (talk) 18:09, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

The question of whether they are "physically different states" is a political one, and not a set fact. Many believe that they are not "physically different states" (one-China policy), merely two different governments. You propose that we take a non-neutral position on the status of the RoC. Neutrality concerns must come first, even if the common name of the entity itself is now "Taiwan". The World Factbook has no such concerns, but we do, in line with WP:AT and WP:NPOV. You've still not provided a solution for the rest of the articles, either. RGloucester — ☎ 13:01, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Using ROC is pro-KMT and not more neutral than using Taiwan since the PRC's point of view is that the ROC does not exist after 1949, and the Taiwan independence movement point of view is that ROC only exists on Fujian province.--Coco977 (talk) 03:53, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

The DPP accepts the existence of the RoC, and "using RoC" certainly is not "pro-KMT". In any case, using the actual name is the only way to avoid participation in the dispute. RGloucester — ☎ 04:13, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Taiwan's most authoritative English-language publication is the yearbook. The 2015 edition is entitled the Republic of China Yearbook. Under Chen, it was the Taiwan Yearbook. Tsai can thus change the "actual name" of the country anytime she likes simply by issuing a new edition -- and it's safe to assume that she will do so before long. Fernando Danger (talk) 08:48, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Changing the yearbook does not the change the name, only changing the constitution can do that. Likewise, the brief change of Chunghwa Post (China Post) to "Taiwan Post" did not change the "actual name" of the government entity. Regardless, the fact is that Ms Tsai has not done any of these things, and WP:CRYSTAL is not a substitute for reality. RGloucester — ☎ 14:56, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

• Support (and for all of the articles involved), unless we are going to change the article name of Taiwan to "Republic of China". If "Taiwan" is controversial, then don't use it as the name of the primary article. Simple. Softlavender (talk) 22:00, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

"Taiwan" is not controversial, in this case, "Taiwanese" is. So, you're going to label what was at the time the UN-recognised government of the entirety of China as "Taiwanese"? Ahistorical, anachronistic, and a nonsense. RGloucester — ☎ 23:12, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

The elections aren't for "the entirety of China ". Softlavender (talk) 23:18, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

I assume you are not aware of the history of the RoC, but until 1971, the RoC was considered to be the only legitimate government of the entirety of China by the UN and most of the international community, and indeed, those elections were for "the entirety of China" according to international law as it stood at the time. RGloucester — ☎ 03:11, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

To repeat: This election, and the other elections and items under this umbrella, are not for "the entirety of China". Softlavender (talk) 03:29, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, they were recognised as such by the international community until 1971. RGloucester — ☎ 04:16, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

To repeat yet a third time: This election, and the other elections and items under this umbrella, are not for "the entirety of China". The leaders of Taiwan or even the ROC have not ruled "the entirety of China" since 1949, and even prior to that the area of dominion shifted widely and wildly. Softlavender (talk) 04:40, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

They may not have ruled it de facto, but they did so de jure until 1971, when recognition shifted to the PRC. The elections were for "the entirety of China". RGloucester — ☎ 05:14, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh good grief that is a ludicrous political fiction. The PRC's claim that it rules Taiwan, and the ROC's claim that it includes mainland China, are both ludicrous political fictions. You're quoting the UN, which doesn't even recognize the ROC or an independent Taiwan. Stop basing your arguments on fictions. Softlavender (talk) 05:28, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Quite clear that you don't understand the history. The UN did recognise the RoC as the government of China until 1971, after which recognition shifted to the PRC. Neither claim is "ludicrous", and indeed, up until the election of Ms Tsai, who has not commented on it, the "one-China policy" was accepted by both sides in its entirety. No one recognise an "independent Taiwan", because an "independent Taiwan" has not been proclaimed by anyone. RGloucester — ☎ 14:13, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

• New proposal: Taiwan general election, 2016. This is by far the most common usage, and it both matches the main article and avoids the demonym. Usage: Taiwan = 87,000 web; 15,000 news. Taiwanese = 4,100 web; 52 news. Republic of China = 16 web; 0 news. Softlavender (talk) 05:55, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose. No need to avoid using the demonym, which is required by the naming guideline WP:NC-GAL#Elections and referendums. Number 57 11:29, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

It's not "required". As evidenced by, for instance, United States presidential election, 2016 and United Kingdom general election, 2015. -- Softlavender (talk) 11:40, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Quoting directly from the guideline: For elections and referendums, use the format "Demonym type election/referendum, date" (e.g. Canadian federal election, 1867, Faroese independence referendum, 1946 etc). There are specific reasons for the British/American elections being at their title (which personally I believe are dubious) and I don't see why these ones should also be an exception. Number 57 12:13, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I can support "Taiwan election", as the election took place in the country that is commonly called Taiwan. However, I cannot support "Taiwanese election", because that implies possession of the election by a "Taiwan" entity that doesn't exist. This election was not "Taiwanese", even if it was did take place in Taiwan. I think that, as shown above, there are cases in which the demonym is avoided because of neutrality or scope concerns, and that, as such, the WP:AT policy criterion on precision and WP:NPOV can override the mere guideline that is WP:NC-GAL. RGloucester — ☎ 14:13, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Should we change the titles of those election articles from "Republic of China xxx elections" to "Taiwanese xxx elections"?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should we change the titles of those election articles from "Republic of China xxx elections" to "Taiwanese xxx elections"? The scope of this discussion includes all elections and referendums held in Taiwan from 1949 to present. Coco977 (talk) 15:45, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

• Support After the lengthy discussion of Talk:Taiwan/Archive_20, it was concluded in the final closing statement that

1. "the use of "Taiwan" instead of "Republic of China" has increased over the years to the point that the phrase "Republic of China" is confusing to the average reader."

2." It has been objected that "Taiwan" is not the official name of the country, but Wikipedia:Article_titles#Common_names is quite clear that the common name should take precedence over the official name where they differ and the official name does not approach the common name in wider usage."

The same reasoning also applies to those election articles. Google search results clearly indicates that "Taiwanese" is the common usage for those elections.

"Taiwanese presidential election" -"wikipedia" news:152 results, scholar:317 results

"Republic of China presidential election" -"wikipedia" news:0 results, scholar:5 results

In addition, using the word "Taiwanese" complies with WP:NC-GAL: For elections and referendums, use the format "Demonym type election/referendum, date".Coco977 (talk) 15:45, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

• Per WP:COMMONNAME, change them all to Taiwan xxx election. This is by far the most common usage, and it both matches the main article Taiwan and avoids the demonym. Usage: Taiwan = 87,000 web; 15,000 news. Taiwanese = 4,100 web; 52 news. Republic of China = 16 web; 0 news. Softlavender (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support They should all be changed (to the demonym version – the idea "Taiwan" is ok but "Taiwanese" isn't baffles me; COMMONNAME isn't really a valid argument we have a subject specific guideline that sets out a formulaic naming system that we apply to achieve WP:CONSISTENCY, plus "Taiwan general election" isn't really very good gramatically) but this isn't the right way to do it – there should be a multi-article RM. However, I would hold off on doing it for a while given the outcome above. Number 57 19:20, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

The thing is, we don't apply it to achieve consistency. Cf. United States presidential election, 2016 and United Kingdom general election, 2015. Using demonyms is obviously optional. In any case, it's very clear that not only is ROC very confusing nor does it in any way match the main article title, it's also never used by the press when referring to Taiwan elections. Softlavender (talk) 20:36, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

The spurious reasons given for not using "American" (it may be confused with other countries in the Americas) and "British" (not liked by Irish nationalists) do not apply here though. I am yet to hear a good reason why "Taiwanese" is not ok but "Taiwan" is. Number 57 20:50, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Because the elections take place in the country that is commonly called Taiwan, but are not "Taiwanese". In other words, they are not proper to an entity called "Taiwan". The question of what is "Taiwanese" is a loaded political one, whereas the fact that elections take place in the country that is commonly called Taiwan is indisputable. If there is going to be an insistence on a change, "Taiwan election" is the only acceptable one, for the same reason that these articles are not presently called "Chinese". This is the only thing that makes sense in line with WP:NPOV and WP:PRECISE. RGloucester — ☎ 22:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

If they take place in the country called Taiwan, they are by definition Taiwanese :s Number 57 22:28, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

They do not take place in the country called Taiwan. They take place in the country called the Republic of China, the free area of which is commonly called "Taiwan". If I were to follow your argument, then this article would be at "Chinese general election, 2016", because they take place in the country called China. It is quite clear that neither "Taiwanese" nor "Chinese" are acceptable. RGloucester — ☎ 22:32, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

As has been pointed out several times before, the country article is at Taiwan, not Republic of China. Number 57 22:37, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, because it is commonly called Taiwan in the English press. No one has disputed this. That's how our WP:UCN policy works. That doesn't change the fact that it is not in actual fact called Taiwan, and that none of the state entities that govern the country commonly called Taiwan refer to the entity that they govern as "Taiwan", nor are they "Taiwanese", as in proper to Taiwan. They are proper to the RoC, which is not limited to the area that it controls. RGloucester — ☎ 22:41, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

"It has been objected that "Taiwan" is not the official name of the country, but Wikipedia:Article_titles#Common_names is quite clear that the common name should take precedence over the official name where they differ and the official name does not approach the common name in wider usage."--Coco977 (talk) 18:03, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, which is why I'm fine with "Taiwan election" for post-1971 elections. RGloucester — ☎ 21:08, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

When it comes to article naming, Wikipedia policy is clear that WP:NPOV is a matter of what names are used in reliable English-language sources, and WP:PRECISE is about whether the name has the potential to cause confusion. Neither of these are an objection to using Taiwan/Taiwanese here, as far as I can tell. Chris Hallquist (talk) 18:43, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

• Prefer retaining RoC for all articles, will accept Taiwan (not "Taiwanese") as a compromise for articles post 1971 – There are many cases in which the 'demonym' specified by NC-GAL is put aside, where the demonym is either unclear or otherwise controversial. The idea that 'Taiwanese' is a demonym for the RoC is a bit strange, but I don't want to start a nonsense argument suggesting that this page be moved to 'Chinese general election, 2016'. Putting that aside for the moment, any discussion of this article's title requires addressing all articles in the categories Category:Legislative elections in the Republic of China and Category:Presidential elections in the Republic of China per WP:CONSISTENCY. In this case, I must oppose the proposed move. 'Taiwanese' does not encompass the scope of these elections per WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE. These are not Taiwanese provincial elections (the provincial assembly no longer exists), they are elections to the post of 'President of the Republic of China', and to the Legislative Yuan. Whilst the common name of the country is 'Taiwan', the state entity itself is called the 'Republic of China'. There is no 'President of Taiwan', nor a 'Legislative Yuan' of Taiwan. Indeed, the relevant president and parliament also govern areas outside of Taiwan, notably in Fujian Province. The whole thing is rather a minefield, with high levels of ambiguity, and the smartest solution is to leave well alone per WP:TITLECHANGES. Any editor that types 'Taiwanese' will still find this article, but we won't have to worry about the PoV implications and misrepresented scope of an article titled 'Taiwanese'. Finally, I cannot accept the "Taiwan" label for elections before 1971. Prior to that year, the RoC was recognised by the UN as the sole government of all of China. There is no justification for labelling such elections, which were internationally recognised as being for an all-China government, as being "Taiwanese" or "for Taiwan". RGloucester — ☎ 22:20, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Taiwan does not only represent the island or the province, but is widely used as the name for the country. If you google "Tsai Ing-wen", [3],[4], most news articles in the media uses "Taiwanese presedient" or "President of Taiwan" etc, while Republic of China nearly does not appear at all. Furthermore, the word Taiwan appears on the website of the Taiwanese office of the president [5], and on the cover of the Taiwanese passport, even for residents in Kinmen and Matsu (Fujian Province), which suggests that Taiwan is the official alternative name for the country. So WP:PRECISE is not a problem for using the Taiwan, and WP:CONCISE suggests that the more representative name Taiwan should be used. Finally, usage of "Taiwan" to refer to ROC started before 1971. For example, the ROC participated in the Olympics as "Taiwan" in 1964 and 1968.--Coco977 (talk) 18:15, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, because the common name is 'Taiwan' in English, but that doesn't mean that these elections are "Taiwanese". "Taiwan" is not an official alternative name for any country. Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it any more right. RGloucester — ☎ 21:07, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

I gave facts to support that "Taiwanese" is the common adjective used for describing things of the political entity and Taiwan is an official alternative name for the country, but you simply deny it without giving any reason.--Coco977 (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

You fail to realise that WP:UCN is not the only article title criteria, and certainly not the overriding concern when there is a potential for misinformation. RGloucester — ☎ 16:57, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

There is no misinformation. WP:NPOVNAME states that When the subject of an article is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language reliable sources, Wikipedia generally follows the sources and uses that name as its article title. In such cases, the prevalence of the name, or the fact that a given description has effectively become a proper noun (and that proper noun has become the usual term for the event), generally overrides concern that Wikipedia might appear as endorsing one side of an issue.--Coco977 (talk) 03:44, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

We may 'generally follow the sources', but sources have been provided which say that the RoC was recognised as the legitimate government of all of China until 1971 by a large part of the international community. Indeed, sources have been provided that show that the state structure is called the 'RoC', even if the common name of the country that that state governs is 'Taiwan'. We don't use the lowest common denominator. RGloucester — ☎ 14:47, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• Seems like everyone accepts to use "Taiwan" after 1971, if no body objects, I'll move those articles to Taiwan--Coco977 (talk) 18:38, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

That's not how this works. You need to wait 30 days for outside opinion to accumulate. That's how an RfC works. Then, a neutral closer comes and assess the relevant arguments. You cannot bypass the RfC process. RGloucester — ☎ 21:05, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

• Support 'Taiwanese', OK with 'Taiwan' Don't have much to add to points made by Coco977 and Number. FWIW, I consider myself relatively knowledgeable about the history and politics of the region, and I had to think for a second before I realized what this RfC was even about. I don't think I ever hear "Republic of China" these days except in the context of the Chiang Kai-shek era. Chris Hallquist (talk) 19:11, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Your own personal lack of familiarity with the topic does not dictate how we name Wikipedia articles. RGloucester — ☎ 21:56, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Please be civil. This is an issue with whether the name qualifies as recognizably common or not. Chris Hallquist (talk) 18:40, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

There is nothing uncivil about pointing out a simple fact. I suggest that you look at WP:AT again. The recognisability criterion is quite clear in stating "The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognise". I apologise if you are not familiar with the topic area, but that has no relevance here. The better option for yourself is to read a bit more on the subject, and become familiar. RGloucester — ☎ 21:12, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose "Taiwanese general election" - would support "Taiwan general election" LavaBaron (talk) 05:19, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
• Strong oppose any change. Keep as it is Republic of China general election, 2016 (redirect other names to this) Don't we have a long standing consensus to use the official name of the country/territory in disputed cases? "Republic of China" is the official name. I can't recall the guideline, but we actually have a guideline somewhere for using the official name. I don't see why we need to change here. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:16, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Also, Taiwan is the name of 1 island. The ROC consists of Taiwan + a bunch of other islands. Taiwan is informally used for ROC in many sources though. However, the formal neutral name is Chinese Taipei (but we don't use that because it not accepted by Taiwan). I suggest keep this article at ROC and let's not open a pandora's box.--Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:23, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, WP:COMMONNAME is quite clear that the common name should take precedence over the official name. There is no policy about using the official name of the country. We use Greek local elections, 2014 instead of Hellenic republic local elections, 2014.--Coco977 (talk) 03:23, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, Taiwan does not only represent the island or the province, but is widely used as the name for the country, both formally and informally. See my response to RGloucester above for the reasoning.--Coco977 (talk) 03:23, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

If you can change United States presidential election, 2016 to "American presidential election, 2016", I will change my stance. Very clearly WP:COMMONNAME doesn't apply there, even though "American presidential elections" is more widely used. In conflicting cases, we give preference to the name of the country. The case of Taiwan is complicated and the best solution is to use the name the country uses to refer to itself. Last I knew, it calls itself "Republic of China". If the name of the country is changed, I wouldn't mind changing as well. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 07:11, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Please notice that the "United States presidential election" is used more frequently than "American presidential election" in the media, according to google search results. And unlike ROC which causes confusion, everybody knows what United States is.--Coco977 (talk) 08:40, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

You are incorrect here. "American presidential election" is more widely used than "United States presidential election". See this Google ngram viewer. Despite this, we use the "uncommon" version and stick to the country name. I also don't see any evidence that ROC causes confusion. You assumption that people don't know what is ROC is simply an assumption. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 09:09, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

I did my search on google news, "United states presidential election" has 62,400 results[6] while only 5240 results are found for "American presidential election"[7]. The Republic of China is not only a less common name but nearly never used, to the point that people don't understand it. The ngram of "Republic of China presidential election" couldn't even be found in Google ngram viewer[8] and yield 0 results in Google news search.--Coco977 (talk) 04:03, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

The term "Taiwan" is ambiguous. It could mean Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China, Taiwan province, Taiwan, China. The election here is for the post of President of the Republic of China which is why we use ROC here. When the name of the country changes to Taiwan, and the president is called "President of Taiwan" and not "President of ROC", I would be glad to support a rename. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 07:05, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

This argument isn't relevant here; it was decided that the country article should be at Taiwan, so obviously editors do not feel it is sufficiently ambiguous to prevent it being used for article titles. If you disagree, you should start a WP:RM for the main article. However, as long as the main article for the country is at Taiwan, related articles should be too. Number 57 12:06, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

The main article being at Taiwan doesn't automatically imply that all other articles have to be moved as well. There is a difference between a political entity and a geographical entity. The political entity known as ROC includes mainland China as well; however it has de-facto control only over Taiwan. Elections are for the president or legislatures of a political entity. The election is for the position of "President of the Republic of China", not the "President of Taiwan". The election is for the Government of the Republic of China. If Government of the Republic of China can be moved to "Government of Taiwan", I wouldn't mind moving the articles of the legislatures and elections as well. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 06:40, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

The whole premise behind your argument is that Taiwan is ambiguous, but the community has rejected that viewpoint by allowing the country article to be located at that name (and even if it were, that is would not necessarily prevent the election articles from using "Taiwanese" given the fact that we use Irish general election, 2016 despite the fact that the article on the country is at Republic of Ireland because the main article Ireland is about the island). However, I do agree that we should also move the other government-related articles to Taiwan titles. Number 57 10:23, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support Taiwan or Taiwanese. I don't really care which. ROC will be confusing for many English-speakers, as Taiwan has become the common name. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:52, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
• Support Taiwanese is the adjective for Taiwan, but using either is fine. ROC is both confusing and not the common name, especially in 2016. Plumber (talk) 16:57, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
• Support as per Plumber BobLaRouche (talk) 22:19, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
• Support as ROC would be confused with PRC. Cerevisae (talk) 04:27, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
• Support The demonym Taiwanese should be used. cf. German federal election, 2017, Japanese general election, 1983, French presidential election, 2012. Lysimachi (talk) 22:01, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
• Support per self-experience, living in Taiwan for 6 years and most of them called their country simply as Taiwan. Not Republic of China. Molecule Extraction (talk) 14:14, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Great point. BobLaRouche (talk) 03:22, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Separate this page to two articles as usual

The creator combined two elections in one page on 2014/6/20, 19 months before the 2016/1/16 election. The elections have finished nine more months and there is no need for frequent revisions. It would be easier to read and link the two different elections in other pages. I thus separated the article Taiwan general election, 2016 to Taiwan presidential election, 2016 and Taiwan legislative election, 2016 as the common practices in the past in {{Taiwanese elections}}. I've notified administers NeilN and MusikAnimal. Number 57 remind me that I should raise discussion here. Thanks! -- Wildcursive (talk) 12:21, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Why would it be easier to read in two articles? Having it in a single article means its all in one place, and is more common practice across Wikipedia than having it split (see examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 from this year alone). Really all the others should be combined too. Number 57 12:23, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Here are the reasons I believe separation is better than status quo.

1. The article now is long enough and there are different issues for the two different elections, such as the party primaries for presidential one and electoral system controversies to the congressional one. It's more likely to add specific contents to different elections.

2. Considering the political system of the central government of Taiwan is semi-presidential system, like France, South Korea, Russia, then we know the nature of the two elections are somewhat different from parliamentary system countries such as UK, Canada, Australia, or presidential system in U.S., Ghana, Uganda, Zambia, Nicaragua, Peru, etc.

3. The two elections are on the same day this year but not in most of the previous presidential/congressional elections. The terms of the Congresspersons has been amended to 4 years from 3 years, like the President, since 2008. However, the same Constitutional amendment also introduces the design to dissolve the Congress which suggests the beginning of the following sessions of Congress may be different from the fixed-term Congress before. For countries with the possibility of dissolution of parliament, theoretically, everyday can be election day for next Congress.

4. In addition, the Central Election Commission set the two elections on the same day this year to save money and raise turn-out rate. However, the Congresspersons assume office on 2/1 while the President sworn in until 5/20 (customary fixed day). This leaves serious caretaker government problem for four more months (very rare and may be the longest in the world) with ruling party rotation. And it's almost certain that the Constitution will be amended in President Tsai's first term. Thus it's likely that the next presidential election and the next congressional election will be on different dates.

5. Other semi-presidential system countries may also held two elections close in the same year but separate to two not-long articles such as South Korean legislative election, 2012 and South Korean presidential election, 2012 as well as French presidential election, 2017 and French legislative election, 2017.

6. These all make two separated articles simpler and clearer to read and edit. It's also more flexible to link and use for future.

-- Wildcursive (talk) 13:38, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

To respond point-by-point:

1. Being long enough isn't a reason to split. Being too long would be, but this is well below the recommended limit.
2. As far as I can see, all other countries with semi-presidential systems that have elections on the same day have combined general election articles. See e.g. Mozambican general election, 2014, Democratic Republic of the Congo general election, 2011, Namibian general election, 2014, Nigerien general election, 2016 (already cited above), Burkinabé general election, 2015, Romanian general election, 2004 etc.
3. If elections were held on different days in future, the articles for those elections would be separated. This is done in other countries where this happens. See e.g. Category:Elections in Niger where there are a mixture of combined general elections and solely legislative or presidential elections.
4. I don't see how this is relevant. That future elections may be held on different days is dealt with in the response to point 3.
5. Again, this isn't relevant because they are not elections on the same day.
6. The first part was dealt with in my initial reply. In addition, I don't see how it's "more flexible to link and use for future"; if anything it's easier to have a single article to link to.

Number 57 14:35, 21 October 2016 (UTC)