Talk:Quds Day/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Problematic edits by Nableezy: Critics or Pro-Israel sources? and charges of anti-Semitism

"Critics of Al-Quds Day accuse its supporters of new antisemitism.[6]" The sources provided for this controversial claim are American Jewish Committee and Manfred Gerstenfeld. These are both highly partisan pro-Israeli sources and I explained it in my edit summary which specified the partisan nature of the claim. @Nableezy: this was disingenuous to remove "Pro-Israel" along with your other edit despite knowing this specification was accurate! --Expectant of Light (talk) 06:19, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

I had also explained why the "anti-Semitic" accusation in the lead must be removed for being controversial and untrue. Why do you push your edits without considering discussion and past edit summaries? --Expectant of Light (talk) 06:23, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

The AJC is not a highly biased source. Events in Quds day are widely described as antisemitic and this should be reflected in the lead.Icewhiz (talk) 06:29, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

AJC is highly biased. It openly advocates for Israel and urges others for advocacy. American Jewish Committee#Controversy. And I explained here why anti-Semitic charges must not be given weight. Iran has nothing against Jews but Israel and Zionism. --Expectant of Light (talk) 06:45, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Im sorry, but you are simply mistaken on what needs to be in the lead. WP:LEAD says that it should summarize the article and include any prominent controversies. That there have been anti-semitic speeches at a number of Quds Day rallies in Iran is such a prominent controversy. As far as labelling them pro-Israel critics, they are both pro-Israel, but you can find that criticism elsewhere. And regardless, it doesnt have to be that specific. We dont also say pro-Palestinian xyz or pro-Iranian whatever for any source that could be argued to be from that side of the spectrum. nableezy - 06:50, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

You specify the source bias when the claim is controversial and is at odds with facts or other more prominent views. That's what it takes to write a neutral article. If you want to give weight to charges of anti-Semitism you have to balance that with sources that contest that contention. And I explained anti-Semitism is mostly a propaganda term that partisan Zionist sources use to discredit any criticism even by Jews who are critical of Israel accusing them of "self-hatred" which is laughable. And if you check most sources that develop the literature about this concept you find they are mostly Jewish sources with strong bias towards Israel. Anyway you either specify the bias of the source or balance that with opposite views. --Expectant of Light (talk) 06:59, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

The Independent: Critics have argued that Quds Day is antisemitic by definition and its rallies are commonly met with bitter counter-demonstrations. nableezy - 07:14, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, and if you trace those "critics" you arrive at the same biased sources. --Expectant of Light (talk) 08:02, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Im sorry, but that isnt how things are done here. nableezy - 08:06, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

I will note that per many definitions of antisemitism, ascribing pro-Israeli views to Jews or Jewish organizations is antisemitic. I would urge editors to refrain from making such unsourced claims. Yhe AJC, a Jewish-American organization, is obviously concerned whenever antisemitism raises its head, as are other Jewish organizations.Icewhiz (talk) 18:37, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Um Icewhiz, the AJC is a self-described pro-Israel group. nableezy - 23:35, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

@Icewhiz: That's just laughable! Drop that! For Zionists describing a spade spade is anti-Semitic. In Israel I guess demanding your right to return to your homeland is also considered anti-Semitic and you can be shot at point blank range just for that! So I believe anti-Semitic charges themselves are racist. And finally Wikipedia is not Israel! So yeah just drop that! --Expectant of Light (talk) 05:11, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

There is no indication that the AJC's pro-Israel stance influences its response to antisemitism.Icewhiz (talk) 05:52, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Uh both of you are making comments that are not appropriate here. Expectant of Light, please focus on the article. Icewhiz, veiled accusations of antisemitism are highly inappropriate. Especially when they have literally zero basis. nableezy - 06:43, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@EVERYBODY: Antisemitism charges need to be handled more carefully. Currently, the lead is reflecting the viewpoint of "Katajun Amirpur" and it's worse to see that it reads "anti-Semitic attacks", as if it's a fact. This is what the critics argue, which is neglected in the article. --Mhhossein ^talk 19:54, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@Nableezy: Could I have your feedback on this, please? --Mhhossein ^talk 06:41, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I dont think there is anything wrong with the current phrasing. Katajun Amirpur writing in Die Welt des Islams is a reliable source. nableezy - 18:43, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Also, the critics have argued part in the Independent is about it being antisemitic by definition using the idea of new antisemitism. That isnt something that can be asserted as a fact, but it is a fact that past rallies in Iran have had specific antisemitic incidents. nableezy - 06:43, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

@Nableezy: Thanks for the response. As you know, we can't accept Amirpur's as a fact, can we? Moreover, can you provide sources saying "it is a fact that past rallies in Iran have had specific antisemitic incidents"? --Mhhossein ^talk 11:14, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

There is plenty of other sources that describe the Quds day as Anti-Semitic event I brought one to the article.--Shrike (talk) 12:56, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

The point is the view is controversial. I mean in Iran there are Jews who participate in Quds day rally (example) when people chant "death to Israel". How could the rallies be anti-Semitic when it is attended by Jews both inside and outside Iran? --Expectant of Light (talk) 15:16, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

If you think an event can't be antisemitic just because a few Jews from Neturei Karta and the leaders of what's left of the Iranian Jewish community endorse it, you don't understand what antisemitism is.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 22:46, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes we can, that is what reliable source means. And the source is the journal by Amirpur. nableezy - 17:28, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

The new antisemitism claim is not something that can be simply accepted as a fact, that is a view that is not widely accepted. nableezy - 17:28, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

@Nableezy: I have to say that you've got a flawed meaning of Reliable Sources. Not every thing said by a reliable source is accepted as a fact. In fact, "Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact. For example, an inline qualifier might say "[Author XYZ] says...." " (see WP:RSOPINION). The current wording of the lead regarding antisementism, as I said, is not in accordance with the guidelines. --Mhhossein ^talk 19:32, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

That isnt an opinion of Amirpur. nableezy - 19:34, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Then you need to prove it. --Mhhossein ^talk 13:54, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

This is what the source says:

ever since the Islamic Republic came into existence over 30 years ago, enmity towards the State of Israel has been one of its ideological foundations. This often shades into anti-Semitism, and thus—in the words of Henner Fürtig—, Aḥmadīnezhād’s rhetorical attacks are to a certain extent "old wine into new wineskins". Aḥmadīnezhād certainly did not invent the anti-Semitic enmity towards Israel. The denial of Israel’s right to exist did not originate with him, nor was the annual ‘International al-Quds Day’ with its decade-long tradition of anti-Semitic attacks founded on his initiative of his. It goes back to Ayatollah Khomeynī himself.

She is not giving an opinion, she is stating a fact. This is not an opinion piece, this is an article in an academic journal. nableezy - 17:14, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

This is clearly a POV. That negating existence of Israel amounts to anti-Semitism is as preposterous as claiming that negating the right of USSR to exist was anti-Russianism or negating the right of South African Apartheid was anti-Angloism! Yes the Zionist propaganda has been promoting this false correlation, but here in Wiki we don't define things based within the confines of Zionist discourse! --Expectant of Light (talk) 17:32, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

You cant just say something is a POV. She writes, as a fact, that Quds Day in Iran has a "decade-long tradition of anti-Semitic attacks". If you think this is a POV you should bring reliable sources disputing it. This is as true for the other users as it is for you, disliking something does not make it "POV". nableezy - 18:42, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I already explained why this is a POV because there are facts that dispute it such as Jews participating in it. If it was anti-Semitic obviously Jews wouldn't participate in it. --Expectant of Light (talk) 19:20, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but that wont do. Your personal opinions do not trump what reliable sources say, and regardless your opinion here isnt even on-topic. What Amirpur says is that Quds Day protests in Iran have had anti-semitic attacks occur. That isnt in any way negated by Jews in Berlin or wherever else participating in Quds Day rallies. But again, to show something is POV you need to bring reliable sources that dispute it. Not just personal views. nableezy - 19:33, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

It would be WP:OR to draw the inference that Jews participating in an event makes it not antisemitic.Icewhiz (talk) 19:36, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

@Expectant of Light: Jews can't support an antisemitc rally? How about an antisemitic party? Try... the Nazi party. Association of German National Jews. It's a well documented phenonemon. The whole point of having Neturei Karta at the front of these marches is to appeal to the frankly gullible viewpoint that Jews can't support something antisemitic. So flags of Hezbollah are given a free pass. The fact is, Neturei Karta are so desperate to end Israel, they will support frankly anything in pursuit of that goal. They don't care what frenemies they make along the way. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 00:33, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

No, she is not a source for statement of facts. POVs are not only reflected in opinion pieces, rather we can see them in academic journals. It would be disastrous in Wikipedia if we could accept every thing in journal articles as facts. The disputed content should be attributed.Saff V. (talk) 19:53, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Im sorry, what? If you or anybody else thinks that Amirpur is not a reliable source for facts you are welcome to take it to WP:RSN. Would be strange seeing the oldest and most respected academic journals about Islam taken there, but feel free. But something is not POV just because you are anybody else disagrees with it. You need to provide sources that dispute it. nableezy - 19:58, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

WP:OR is just how the reliability of sources and the factuality of their statements are valued across Wikipedia. If you see a statement that is contradicted by another piece of information, you decide to the least that you can't state each of them as facts but as POVs. --Expectant of Light (talk) 10:34, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

This is your duty to carry the burden of evaluating the source. We would not use her body, if she was not reliable. However, we're going to say that her views are 100 correct.Saff V. (talk) 14:24, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

@Bellezzasolo: The truth about Netury Karta is that they consider Modern Israel anti-Jewish. So their definition of what is and is not anti-Jewish is different unless you want to accept the Israeli propagandist definitions hook, line and sinker. And btw there are many other Jewish groups and figures who are strongly critical of Israel. --04:55, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

You might want to read up about Tokenism, and examples such as Helene Mayer.[1] Certainly, Jews who live in open and free societies have a vast multitude of opinions and express them (this is a subject of "insider" jokes/tales - e.g. Rabbi Weinreb’s Parsha Column, Korach: “Two Jews, Three Opinions”). The same is true of Iranians in the diaspora and of course of other ethnic groups throughout the free world. However, finding a few token Jews who endorse an argument/movement is not an indication regarding whether the movement is antisemitic or not. Here we have ample sources using the label, e.g. Deciphering the New Antisemitism, Alvin H. Rosenfeld.Icewhiz (talk) 05:56, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Talking of a "free world" which endorses a Jewish Apartheid in Mid-East, gets away with shooting blacks in streets, actively creates terror groups such as al-Qaeda for its imperial agenda, fires uni professors such as Norman Finklestein who question the mainstream myths makes for a laughable Orwellian world, indeed! Any way my concern is WP:NOTCENSORED. --Expectant of Light (talk) 14:29, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Listen, I know personally many Satmer hasidim who are very hostile to the State of Israel based on religious grounds. And they would never dare to join forces with those wicked ayatollas, let alone support violence or terrorism against other Jews. As a matter of fact, Satmer is usually hostile to anyone who is not like them, Jews and non-Jews alike. That's why they consider Neturei Karta to be a walking chillul-Hashem who are more heretics and evil than all the Zionist leaders they despise. If that's true with Satmer, needless to say it's true for all the other groups of Jews, both among Orthodoxy and secular (including liberal Jews who are critical of Israel). Neturei Karta is nothing more than a fringe of 100 so-called Jews (in cherem) who were virtually condemned by ALL of the Jewish people, and that's one of the few topics where most Jews agree. You can't really make an argument about something not being antisemitic based on NK's opinion. Read what the Jewish sages of recent generations said regarding Israel's conflict with its neighbors—from Rav Yoel MiSatmer to Rav Ovadia Yosef, Rav Abraham Isaac Hakohen Kook and the Lubavitcher rebbe— and you will NEVER find a 'gadol hador' who takes sides with Israel's enemies, despite the different positions among chachamim when it comes to the State of Israel's role in the redemption process. Please, don't confuse being opposed to Zionism because of religious interpretations with being sympathetic to the Iranian regime or Hezbollah.

Nevertheless, that's for a different discussion. The fact is that this picture is already repeated in many articles (which could be considered undue weight) and there's no reason to have it also here when it's clear Quds Day was invented in Iran, and we have a perfect picture of an Iranian rally, which is usually much more numerous and representative than any Quds Day demonstration in other parts of the world.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 21:01, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Your "wicked Ayatollahs" is just a reverberation of Netanyahu's "wicked Iran" so keep that to yourself, but anyhow I don't care what other rabbis think about Israel, and all that you wrote with the intent of affiliating Neturi Karta with Iran shows how their photo is closely relevant to the topic and thus must be preserved! --Expectant of Light (talk) 07:19, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 18 June 2018

There's an RFC on changing the infobox image from the previous long-standing version to the suggested one. Amid the ongoing discussion, some users tried to show their desired photo out of process via edit war. Check the edit summary provided here to see one the arguments provided by an edit warrer: "consensus is in favour of this change (5 against 3)". You can check the above RFC and the article edit history. There was no consensus on changing the photo. Mhhossein ^talk 12:13, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Pinging @Fish and karate: for attention. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:15, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: As requested by the template, clearly state what the suggested edit is, please. Fish+Karate 12:44, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

@Fish and karate: Sorry for not being clear enough. This edit by יניב הורון was an out of process edit (war?). There's no consensus over the change and users were discussing whether or not it should change. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:52, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

The article is fully protected to prevent this kind of edit warring. I appreciate that you feel strongly that the article was protected on the Wrong Version; you have a further four days to discuss which is the Right Version of the image here on the talk page, in the above RFC. I suggest you use this time to continue to establish a consensus on which is the best image to use as an illustrative aid to further understanding of the article topic. Fish+Karate 13:09, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Image composition - over representation of fringe Neturei Karta sect

In continuation to the TP section "Images from Iran", it would seem that after the closure (or rather improper closure? Seems like the bot removed this) 2 images were added to the article body featuring Jewish Orthodox men from the fringe Neturei Karta sect. While Neturei Karta do march in these marches, they are a distinct minority of the marchers. Presently - 2 out of 3 images in the article feature them predominantly. This lacks balance.Icewhiz (talk) 13:30, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Dear Lord... I thought we were done with this. Given the fact that the huge infobox and sidebars already take up so much space in a relatively small article, I'd rather have just one image in the infobox, period. All these additional "international" images are more suited to List of Quds Day demonstrations. --HyperGaruda (talk) 14:56, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, we don't need more photos for the infobox. As for the others, it's suited to this main article and adds encyclopedic value to the article specially since the it's used "near the relevant text" (See WP:IG). Neturei Karta, whom Icewhiz calls "fringe", are found/seen in almsot every photo of Quds rallies held in western countries. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:03, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but what? Relevant text? Neturei Karta is not mentioned anywhere in the text. Seen in almost every photo? That's not what I see in Commons:Category:Quds Day; in fact, women are prominently lacking in the current article; for the sake of representation and gender neutrality, they deserve more space than yet another "omg, even Jews don't support Israel" photo. BUT my point actually was that there is just not enough space without the sidebars pushing down the images to irrelevant positions, meaning that the image-to-text ratio is probably too high at the moment. --HyperGaruda (talk) 04:54, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree with HyperGaruda. We don't have much space in article anyway for those two extra images of Neturei Karta, not to mention it's undue weight.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 21:02, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Neturei Karta is given undue weight for transparent reasonsJonney2000 (talk) 21:05, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, they're seen in almost every photo of Quds rallies in western countries. I think HyperGaruda needs to see this link, which I provided. Saff V. (talk) 09:32, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

If you search specifically for them - orthodox+Jews+quds+rally. Conversely, when you search for Arabs+quds+rally - you suddenly get Arabs. And when you hezbollah+quds+rally you get Hezbollah flags. And we you do burning+quds+rally you get burning objects.Icewhiz (talk) 09:50, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

@HyperGaruda: Yes, relelvant text. The text just near the photos is talking about Quds Day protests being "observed throughout the Middle East and in Western Europe and the United States". As for the category you referred to, there are some sub-categories with photos featuring Neturei Karta. Btw, Image-to-text ratio is not high, rather the position of the pics need to change. @Icewhiz: Can you show me, for instance the Quds rally in a Western country without Neturei Karta standing in the first row? Those many pictures brought to us shows their strong presence in such rallies. For instance, 2015 in London, 2018 in London. There are similar results if you carry out a general search. As for calling them fringe, I think this photo says something else. Regards. --Mhhossein ^talk 10:57, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Agree with Icewhiz and Yaniv. We've been through this on another page where an RfC was closed with a clear result to exclude the publicity-focused fringe group. I'm sure there are much more acceptable protest pictures this can be replaced with. Their camera-friendly (some might say camera-hunting) publicity seeking behavior does not mean we have to play into the game -- just like we do not feature frequently pictures of the Westboro Baptist Church protesting even though they are all over the place. --Calthinus (talk) 18:57, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Your RFC elsewhere has nothing to do with the case we're talking about. It's not a Game, it's a reality that they are seen in most of the rallies in Western countries. Why did you removed them all? --Mhhossein ^talk 13:41, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

The reality is that in many Western rallies (but far from all) there are a few Neturei Karta marchers who are often photographed - appearing in a few photographs out of hundreds of any march. They don't appear in all photos. They don't appear in most photos. They do appear in a small percentage of photos.Icewhiz (talk) 13:53, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Are you saying there are "few photographs out of hundreds" of Quds rallies featuring Neturei Karta? --Mhhossein ^talk 14:15, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

No - that of the whole mass of photography from any individual rally (those that have Neturei Karta present) - the Neturei Karta photos (who typically are a few individuals or a very small group out of a large rally) constitute only a small fraction of photographs from that rally.Icewhiz (talk) 14:43, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz: So, as far as I understood, you're not denying their participation in various rallies, rather you're saying although they are present, they're a minority. I agree your with argument. I was actually trying to have photos from the western countries where the rally is held. I'll see if I can find better photos for the rally featuring the whole population, in contrast to just showing Neturei Karta. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:56, 8 August 2018 (UTC)