Talk:Politics of Germany

Legacy of Nazism

@Alexanderkowal I think your section on the legacy of Naziism is a valuable addition, as it still has considerable impact on German politics. Unfortunately, you seem to have written on Denazification entirely, without any reference to current German politics. It's also quite long, repeating what could have been referred to in an {See also}, and in quite a prominent position in the article, sectioned relatively high up. JackTheSecond (talk) 10:52, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@JackTheSecond yeah I'm going to add to it. It might be worth slimming down the denazification paragraphs, I just thought it gave valuable context for the concept of German collective guilt, which is what the section is going to be about Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Just to guide your work a bit further: The section, in its current state, is already longer than almost anything but the foreign policy section. JackTheSecond (talk) 11:54, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@JackTheSecond it's shorter than all the sections other than ‘constitution’? Regardless, I'll trim it down Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@JackTheSecond I've put it under history section. Do you still feel it needs to be trimmed down? Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:58, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@JackTheSecond why did you revert my edit? Really odd considering we are already discussing it here Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Because you asked for a reevaluation before doing anything. Also, it doesn't belong into the chronologically organised section. JackTheSecond (talk) 13:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@JackTheSecond when did I ask for a re-evaluation? It belongs in the history section, it is clear that it is not part of the chronology Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:48, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

When you wrote Do you still feel it needs to be trimmed down? you asked for another look. You seem to be trying to write something longer than fits the article. Maybe just create Legacy of Naziism in Germany. Maybe Culture of Remembrance is useful to you in that regard, also. JackTheSecond (talk) 14:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Specifically, Sections of the German version. JackTheSecond (talk) 14:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@JackTheSecond I asked for your opinion, not for you to delete it lol. Thank you for the recommendations, I'll use them in adding to it. It's probably only going to be two or three more decently sized paragraphs, but I will probably cut out some of the denazification paragraph. At the moment it does read quite brutish so some of it definitely needs to be rephrased. Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate that it is a very sensitive topic and requires more competency than I am currently providing, but the end product seemed good? I’ve found lots of sources about this and aim to add new content to Wikipedia, I don’t fully understand your opposition, and I’d prefer you were constructive rather than blanking a section with minimal explanation Kowal2701 (talk) 06:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Sensitivity may be an issue, but wasn't mine. I see the conversation got a bit weird below... Anyway, below you write Half of this article is dedicated to political history, so I do think a summary of denazification is relevant. Basically what the history section in this article does is to summarize recent election results and electoral terms in a fairly straightforward and focussed manner. -- It also really only deals with the unified Germany.

None of the other sections deal with history. A section on Vergangenheitsbewältigung is due (and missing), a section on Denazification is not. -- I also feel like I explained that before, constructively. JackTheSecond (talk) 15:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

What about redefining the scope of the section by renaming it “Collective guilt and German politics”? And it can include the culture of remembrance and the impact on German nationalism Kowal2701 (talk) 16:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, Vergangenheitsbewältigung is a context that exists already. And an ongoing political factor in Germany that is well-documented. Your issue here is that you're trying to write in a more strongly worded context - in your own words "brutish" - that is non-encyclopedic. JackTheSecond (talk) 18:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

So the issue is sensitivity? I agree, but I felt it explained the collective guilt. The brutishness was borrowed from Denazification, obviously it's needs to be written in a way that doesn't perpetuate this phenomenon. More emphasis also needs to be placed on the culture of remembrance, I'd like it to be positive, whilst not glossing over the ugliness Kowal2701 (talk) 18:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

You only make additions that can already be found or understood on the article about denazification. To be considered as such, a copy does not need to be line by line. The information is not easily translated to complement the article Politics of Germany. Are these edits from a neutral point of view?

Edit war over Legacy of Nazism

@2804:14C:DA98:80DD:1596:A431:1CFC:B2C2 My comment on your talk page:

Discussion is not to happen via edit summaries. Only two paragraphs are copied over from denazification to provide context for the paragraph on collective guilt (which is what this section is about), which I plan to expand much further. This article discusses the political history of Germany whilst glossing over this. I softened the tone of the first few paragraphs.

Your comment here:

You only make additions that can already be found or understood on the article about denazification. To be considered as such, a copy does not need to be line by line. The information is not easily translated to complement the article Politics of Germany. Are these edits from a neutral point of view?

Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:24, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

@2804:14C:DA98:80DD:1596:A431:1CFC:B2C2 Is WP:NPOV your main concern with this section? Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I understand that these articles mostly fly by without anyone checking the information. You are once again misdirecting the discussion. Neutral point of view is just one of the points of your repeated additions without any consensus. 2804:14C:DA98:80DD:1596:A431:1CFC:B2C2 (talk) 13:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not misdirecting discussion, I'm trying to assess what has propelled you to engage in an edit war. If you look at this talk page, no-one responded so I added the section. It received criticism from one editor and we trimmed it down and clarified its purpose. Can you state your reasons for deleting it entirely, because I've responded to your initial reason and stated that it wasn't adequate. Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:55, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I've already stated my argument. It is a lengthy copy from denazification and similar sources (or the sources from the same article). It is not easily translated to complement the article Politics of Germany. And this is not neutral, it is just pushing biased politics on the side of the article. Again, show the specific legislation affected by the denazification process or try to change denazification. A "See Also: Denazification" really is enough. 2804:14C:DA98:80DD:1596:A431:1CFC:B2C2 (talk) 14:15, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

It is very relevant to the politics of Germany, as what is currently there is political history. I plan to add further efforts of reconciliation to the history part and then expand the paragraph on collective guilt and how it affects German politics today. I’ve found loads of sources talking about this, I just need to do the history bit first.

can you please elaborate on how it is biased? Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:52, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Half of this article is dedicated to poitical history, so I do think a summary of denazification is relevant Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:27, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Switch Elections to Scottish TIE

Politics of Germany

26 September 2021 (2021-09-26)
All 735 seats in the Bundestag, including 137 overhang and leveling seats 368 seats needed for a majority
Opinion polls
Registered	61,172,771 0.8%
Turnout	46,298,338 (76.4%) ( 0.2pp)
First party Second party Third party   Candidate Olaf Scholz Armin Laschet Annalena Baerbock Party SPD CDU/CSU Greens Last election 153 seats 246 seats 67 seats Seats won 206 197 118 Seat change 53 49 51 Constituency vote 12,184,094 13,233,971 6,435,360 % and swing 26.36% ( 1.72pp) 28.63pp ( 8.64pp) 13.92pp ( 5.37pp) State vote 11,901,556 11,177,746 6,814,401 % and swing 25.71% ( 5.20pp) 24.14pp ( 8.79pp) 14.72pp ( 5.78pp)   Fourth party Fifth party Sixth party   Candidate Christian Lindner Alice Weidel Tino Chrupalla Janine Wissler Dietmar Bartsch Party FDP AfD Left Last election 80 seats 94 seats 69 seats Seats won 91 83 39 Seat change 11 11 30 Constituency vote 4,019,562 4,699,917 2,286,070 % and swing 8.70pp ( 1.70pp) 10.17pp ( 1.29pp) 4.87pp ( 3.60pp) State vote 5,291,010 4,809,228 2,255,860 % and swing 11.43pp ( 0.68pp) 10.39pp ( 2.25pp) 4.95pp ( 4.37pp)
The left side shows constituency winners of the election by their party colours. The right side shows party list winners of the election for the additional members by their party colours.
Government before election Angela Merkel CDU/CSU Elected Government Olaf Scholz Social Democratic Party of Germany

@Number 57, Impru20, Vacant0, Siglæ, Rowei99, Μαρκος Δ, Checco, Scia Della Cometa, Yakme, Vacant0, Braganza, Kawnhr, Chuborno, Davide King, Nick.mon, Erinthecute, HapHaxion, Helper201, Vif12vf, PLATEL, Morgan695, Tyrosian, and Elg3a-1:

I've noticed that, despite Germany having two voting systems, only one is used. As TIE is better at summarising elections, I believe TIE should be expanded to encompass both votes. As you can see to your right, this is how the 2021 election would look with Scottish TIE. It'll be interesting o hear users' views on this. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 16:55, 21 July 2024 (UTC) ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 16:55, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Keep as is. Unlike in the Japan discussion you started separately, in Germany the electoral system allocates total seats according to the proportional vote, so the current setup doesn't invite any confusion at all. Chuborno (talk) 23:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I also think the current format is fine. Unlike parallel systems, or more limited implementations of MMP like the AMS systems in British devolved parliaments, Germany's electoral system is almost perfectly proportional to the list vote (especially since overhang seats were abolished some years ago) and is by far the more relevant vote to display in the infobox. Erinthecute (talk) 23:47, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Keep as is, per above. The additional fields make an already-large infobox even larger, and I don't the data here is important or critical enough to justify that expansion. — Kawnhr (talk) 19:45, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I support the proposal and I don't agree with the comments above, I think that if there is a possibility both results should be shown.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:17, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• I would like to keep TILE for all legislative elections. --Checco (talk) 19:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Checco: I do too, but I do see the advantages of using TIE when there are two rounds/two voting systems, while TILE can't express it very well. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 19:57, 28 July 2024 (UTC)