Talk:Rainbow Night

Merge?

@Malick78: Unless I'm mistaken, so far Margot (activist) is mainly known for her role in these events. (t · c) buidhe 06:10, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

• Hi, perhaps you know better than me, but it seems that Margot has her own fame now. Everyone knows her name in Poland now. She seems a bit like Stormé DeLarverie, who helped spark the Stonewall Riots in the US. I wouldn't merge yet. Malick78 (talk) 10:44, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes Buidhe, she is mostly know for her role in these events. She might be notable later since she was arrested and who knows how the things develop, but for know I think you are right about the merger. (Sorry Malick78) - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:03, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I support the merger for now. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:08, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Oppose: Margot has been involved in many more activities and organisations, they attack the Parliament, Mr Polanski and Gazeta Wyborcza, inter alia: https://premium.wprost.pl/10352676/czego-nie-mowi-sie-o-margot-udzial-w-akcji-pomazania-sciany-sejmu-protest-przeciwko-polanskiemu.html

Zezen (talk) 10:55, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Tks for the article, that is something sufficient and sufficiently different that merging no longer makes sense. (t · c) buidhe 11:30, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary naming

The events described in the article are not known as Polish Stonewall. The vast majority of media coverage simply described the event. Only a few media reports suggested that it might resemble Stonewall riots. The title of the article is the author's arbitrary biased choice based on very few media suggestions. Wide media coverage did not call these events as Polish Stonewall. In many sentences there is bias and POV. H.Rabiega (talk) 18:05, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

If you have a different idea of how to name the article, the way to do that is start a WP:RM. (t · c) buidhe 01:03, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I reverted your edit about the video. In the Balkan Insight source it says

In its public statement on the events, the Warsaw police said it arrested, “48 of the most aggressive” people who were involved in a collective attack on the police van carrying Margot. The police also released a video entitled “Through the eyes of the police”, as a means to justify its actions. The video shows two protesters lying on the police car while others try to form a chain around it, and a separate scene of an activist shouting abuse at the police. There is no image that could be construed as protesters actually attacking the police.

Even if it is illegal to insult the police and block them from performing their duties, we should not confuse civil disobedience with "violence". (t · c) buidhe 01:07, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Polish Stonewall/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wasted Time R (talk · contribs) 22:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

My immediate appraisal is to say this GA nomination is too soon. The event in question occurred only three weeks ago and it's likely that not all the facts are yet known about exactly what happened with the initial arrest, subsequent arrests, and later protests. And we do not know what, if any, effect the event or the subsequent criticism and protests will have going forward. So I don't see how you can write a "good" article about a subject when you don't yet know what the subject actually is.

This is especially evident in the article title. We have no idea whether the events of 7 August will turn out to be the same kind of landmark event that the NYC Stonewall riots turned out to be in the United States, or something less dramatic but still important, or something of no lasting effect at all. (I personally hope that this, or something, turns around the LGBT situation in Poland, but based on the general nationalist/reactionary/etc directions much of the world has been going in the last few years, I'm not overly hopeful.) If Wikipedia had existed on, say, 18 July 1969, would an editor writing an article about what had just happened at the Stonewall Inn have had any idea of what the Stonewall riots would eventually mean? A more apt title for this article would use a question mark, like "Polish Stonewall? Protesters decry government's anti-LGBTQ attitudes" this NBC News headline for an AP story does. As it stands now, the article title seems like something that people hope for, rather than something that is.

In terms of the GACR criteria, these problems affect the neutrality and stability criteria. There has been a fair amount of churn in the article in recent days, with a number of reverts taking place. That's symptomatic of an article about a very recent event. There is also potentially change coming because the outcome of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Margot (activist) may result into a merge into this article.

So while I believe the DYK this article had was appropriate – by definition, DYK items are about new content – I think a GA nomination is too soon. But I am willing to hear an argument to the contrary. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks for taking a look at this.
• The facts of the situation are known and the main reporting on them was released within a week of the incident; the most important being the ombudsman's report of 8 August and the Balkan Insight piece (13 August). The main reactions have come in, although it's possible there may be minor updates in future. The only thing that definitely will need updating is what eventually happens to Margot but that is more a question for her bio article (I don't think it will be merged here, per the arguments I made at the discussion) and is tangential to this article. (probably no more than 1 sentence addition, which doesn't seem relevant to stability).
• As for the title, I refer you to Wikipedia:What the Good article criteria are not: "Article titles are not addressed by the good article criteria. These are discussed at Requested Moves." I know the current title isn't ideal and recommend that, if you have a better suggestion, please post on the talk page. (t · c) buidhe 23:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I get that for the usual sort of WP name disputes, such as say Talk:Raul Julia#Requested move 26 August 2020 to pick an active one at random, a GA nomination and review can proceed independently of the name resolution. But for this one I don't think it can. Because if you are right that the only future updates to this article will be "minor", then it can't possibly be called Polish Stonewall. As for what I better name would be, maybe Margot arrest protests or 2020 Warsaw LGBT arrests protests or something like that. But the current name is either a violation of WP:POVNAMING or of WP:CRYSTAL, both of which are pretty core policies. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

• Sorry, but mame of article is very controversial. See Talk:Polish_Stonewall#Name. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 13:48, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

I am going to fail this GA nomination, as it has been 10 days and no progress is being made in addressing the concerns I listed above. The title is still completely wrong and there is continued instability and edit/tag warring around both this article and the Margot (activist) one. I would suggest the following happen:

1. Get/affirm a consensus regarding whether this article and the Margot one should be combined or separate.
2. Assuming this article goes on, get a consensus on a name for it that does not have "Stonewall" in it and move it.
3. Get the DYK nomination for this article approved (which is currently pending resolution of the name issue).
4. Wait for the article to appear on the main page.
5. See if there are any useful additions/comments on the article from the several thousand views it gets there.
6. Wait a few months.
7. Update the article for the effect of the protests, if any, on the overall LGBT situation in Poland.
8. Renominate the article for GA.

I realize that step 6 may not be followed (but what is the rush?), however in my view all of the other ones should be. Then you can nominate again with a better article and a clean slate. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:52, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Name

I have concerns that the article is using the name "Polish Stonewall" which is not commonly used in Poland or abroad. I am not denying that some sources called it such, but I think most just call them with a generic name such as "7 August 2020 protests in Warsaw" or such. I am not sure if we should adopt the "Polish Stonewall" name. I have no objections to saying that some have called the protests such, but it is not a universal name. PS. After a bit of digging, I linked this article to an Polish Wikipedia article: pl:Protesty w Polsce w 2020 roku (which has a very generic name, too generic most likely, as "Polish protests of 2020"). Commons category at commons:Category:August 2020 LGBTQIA Protests in Poland likely is a good compromise. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:07, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I concur. While some sources labelled the event this way, it is not a common name. Besides, arbitrarily comparing it to American Stonewall event smells heavily of cultural colonialism, through American lens.--Darwinek (talk) 12:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I would support "August 2020 LGBT protests in Poland", since the demonstrations also occurred in other Polish cities. (t · c) buidhe 02:57, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

A quick thought: what if they continue in September? Summer/fall are a bit overlapping, maybe just "2020 LGBT protests in Poland"? I don't think there were any major ones earlier this year...? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:39, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Well it depends on how you define protest. For example, the June 2020 demonstration outside of the president's residence, is that a protest? I would say so. (t · c) buidhe 23:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Furthermore, protests have died down since Margot was released last week. Any new protests are a separate event that probably needs to be in a different article. (t · c) buidhe 23:26, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

FYI there was another "Polish Stonewall" some years back, making it more confusing:

The closure (of his club) was met with protests, which came to be labelled as "the Polish Stonewall".[3] - Krystian Legierski. Zezen (talk) 16:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Piotrus, "August 2020 LGBTQIA Protests in Poland" (per Wikipedia Commons) is good name. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 23:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Subtropical-man, Any sources which use this name? Why do you think LGBTQIA is more common than LGBT? (t · c) buidhe 23:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

This is not proper name, there need not be sources for that exact name. The name can describe the phenomenon. However, we can to discuss to use word LGBT or LGBTQIA, based on the sources. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 23:47, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I find this "Polish Stonewall" name also problematic...per your comments - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:30, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok, so moving forward, would there be any objections to moving this to August 2020 LGBT protests in Poland? I am seeing consensus above that this would be a better name. Are we all good with a move?-PS. LGBT is more common, but it is worth noting that Margot self identifas in the QIA range, I forget which one. It was IIRC in her GW interview. -_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:31, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

It's ok, "August 2020 LGBT protests in Poland" is good name. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 13:31, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

'7 August mass arrest' section

There are some inaccuracies in this section:

• Margot was waiting at Campaign Against Homophobia's office in Warsaw to be arrested, but the police initially said that she would not be arrested. – the Police officers that were present at that place were from squads responsible for patrol duty and crowd control. No one at that moment knew that Margot was to be arrested, as no one knew about the arrest warrant.
• before another group of plainclothes police tried to arrest Margot. – Margot was arrested by high ranking Police officer wearing an uniform, he was accompanied by some plainclothes Police officers.
• and an Italian legal resident who happened on the demonstration and was arrested while watching it – that is a rumor that has not been confirmed later.
• active participation in an illegal gathering – that is not entirely true: active participation in an gathering whose participants commit a violent attack on a person or property, there is nothing about illegal in the Criminal Code.

There are more of such inaccuracies that could be prevented by using neutral sources. Wostr (talk) 23:25, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

The information is all sourced to reliable sources. If you believe it is "inaccurate", you need to present sources that are equally reliable and contradict the information. Also, whether a source is considered by you to be "neutral" has no relation to whether it is a reliable source for Wikipedia, see WP:Biased.

Also, there is no evidence at present that an actual violent attack was committed by the protestors, see the Balkan Insight piece. No one has been convicted of any crime and WP:BLP applies. (t · c) buidhe 23:34, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Using sources that are biased as only sources for some information is not a good way. I'm not an en.wiki user, I can't and I won't edit this article. I'm just saying that there is a room for improvement. I don't see a report of National Preventive Mechanism that could be contrasted with Ministry of the Interior and Police statements and reports (at least two statements at parliamentary committees). Most sources are from news websites, many of which (like 'oko.press', 'onet.pl', 'gazeta.pl') are biased or of questionable reliability. Wostr (talk) 19:30, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

You could argue that all sources are biased, but on the other hand, Gazeta Wyborcza is probably the most reliable Polish news source at present. The Ministry of the Interior and police have an incentive to portray this incident in a certain way or, potentially, to lie about it (WP:COISOURCE), while it does not necessarily enjoy a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. In contrast, the ombudsman is independent, enjoys a very good reputation, and has a mission to tell the truth about state actions. See also WP:FALSEBALANCE. (t · c) buidhe 19:49, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

You do know the difference between gazeta.pl news service and a newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza/wyborcza.pl? Unfortunately, you are probably not fully aware of the social and political situation in Poland, if you say that "Gazeta Wyborcza is probably the most reliable Polish news source at present". There are currently few (if any) nationwide news sites or daily press that are not politically biased. It is an open secret that Gazeta Wyborcza is oriented towards the left, while publications such as Gazeta Polska are directed towards the right side of the political scene. This makes it extremely difficult nowadays to write a neutral text about social or political events based on news services and the daily press. We are aware of this at pl.wiki and try to carefully use this type of sources while writing about social or political events, sometimes even pointing out that certain information comes from a given website or newspaper or by contrasting opinions from different, opposite sources.

I think you missed one word from my statement above the National Preventive Mechanism report (or, more generally, the Polish Ombudsman report) and about statements of Polish Ministry of the Interior and Polish Police. That word, a key word, was contrasted. There are two ways this article could be written. In one, there is a (i) description of events, (ii) description of reactions from both non-governmental organisations or civic institutions (like the Polish Ombudsman) and official government institutions — you cannot deny that the reactions or statements of government institutions are worth noting for a full understanding of both the course of the described events and the overall situation in that period — (iii) description of international reactions, (iv) description of social, legal and political consequences. In this way, the reader would have a fairly complete picture of the situation that would allow him to form an opinion on the subject. Unfortunately, some points are missing and right now we have a selection of sources and content that directs the reader to a specific point of view. Wostr (talk) 17:31, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Name (again)

I want to point out that currently there is a name for this event that is used by various polish sources. The sources usually call it "Tęczowa Noc" (rainbow night in english) [1][2][3][4][5][6][7]. I this we might consider renaming the article since it's shorter. Matinee71 (talk) 18:05, 12 August 2022 (UTC)