Talk:Nine-ball

Rotation

Resolved

 – Long since fixed.

There's no mention of having to hit the balls in order, ie. you must strike the lowest number ball on the table. I thought that was one of the main rules.

--Prisonblues 10:02, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Significant changes

Resolved

 – Just an FYI.

I made some significant changes to the article. I hope these are satisfactory. --GoHawks4 10:15, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Order

Resolved

 – Long since fixed.

We now have: "Although the order of the rest of the balls is in fact irrelevant, they are ordinarily arranged in numerical order from left to right as shown." If the order is indeed irrelevant, we might want to include an explanation. Aliter 23:00, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Pocketing the nine ball and fouling doesn't lose the game immediately, so I removed that line from the article. (The nine ball is respotted, otherwise it's just like any other foul.)

Please sign your posts. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:52, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

When can the nine ball be sunk?

Resolved

 – Question answered.

My impression was that the nine could only be sunk after all the others but the article doesn't seem to say that explicitly. Or can one sink the nine at any time as long as one has hit the lowest numbered ball on the table first? --Editdroid

The nine can be sunk at any time as long as you have hit the lowest numbered ball first. --Al 19:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

So the nine ball does not have to be called in any way on a legal combo shot or on the last shot of the game?? Meaning the nine could go in by accident as long as the first object ball hit is the lowest numbered ball on the table? Can any one clear this up for me? thepretenders22

Yes, you have stated the rule correctly. The nine ball can be made at any time in the game by pure luck and without having been called so long as no foul is committed on the shot (such as failing to contact the lowest numerical ball first). For some reason this rule causes great confusion; I am asked this at least once a month in my column. Fuhghettaboutit 01:42, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Redundancy

Resolved

 – Long since fixed.

"Like most billiards games, there are many variations on the rules of nine ball, and a specific ruleset is often decided before a game." This statement was re-inserted in the second paragraph by Superm---. It obviously refers to recreational games, not tournament or championship games. "The game may be played in social and recreational settings . . . subject to such rules as may be agreed upon beforehand" has already been stated in the first paragraph. This re-insertion is unnecessary. RogerK 01:55, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Significant changes redux

Resolved

 – Just an FYI.

I made some significant changes to the article. I hope these are satisfactory. I am a professional pool player and write articles under the name "Pool_Teacher" in the pool/billiards category at allexperts.com. --fuhghettaboutit December 10, 2005

Memories

Resolved

 – Just a chat.

It appears that this article is being written by seasoned players, rather than researchers, 'cause there are no references listed, lol. I've played a lot of nine ball, mostly in pool halls in the 60s when I was a young man, and then always for money. It wasn't unusual for 4 or 5 of us to play on one table for hours, for a buck or two a head, and it was always call every shot, no push allowed. Sometimes some hot-shot would show up, and we'd play for $5 or $10 a head. Ah, the good old days. It was big money to me back in those days. Today my wife and I play occasionally at a local tavern, and I occasionally shock some egotist with a flash of talent, but it's gettin' tough; I wear tri-focals now, lol. Pleased to meet you, fuhg, and you too, woohooo --RogerK 03:35, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Hey Roger so you used to play ring games huh?, I was in the back playing Chicago! Actually cut my teeth on straight pool of course, but I really never was a huge nine ball fan. Course after straight pool died, I had to switch to playing nine ball. Guess we have to add some references to the article. Shouldn't be to difficult (hey, why don't you start?)

Added a coupla references which related to Nine Ball's beginnings. The games we played were Nine Ball, Harrigan, and Kill Pool. Don't remember much about Kill Pool, but Harrigan was by far my favorite. Up to seven players could play, and each was given, by the proprietor (who did not play and also served as the referee and settler of disputes), two pills randomly from the pill bottle, which was shaken before each delivery. Each pill was about 5/8" in diameter with a flat upon which was a number (from 1 to 15), and each player would return one of the pills to the proprietor (these would determine the order of play, lowest first), and retain the other pill which would be the player's object ball (he "owned" it). If the breaker pocketed his object ball on the break, the game was over and he won. If he sank another player's object ball on the break, the game was over and the owner of the pocketed ball won. Every player paid the winner. If any player, in the course of his turn, pocketed a ball that was owned by no one, he could continue shooting, but if he pocketed any owned ball it was an immediate win for its owner. Fast game; quick money. I used to keep my pill in my right ear, lol. Perfect fit. Ah, the good old days :)). --RogerK 03:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay try this brutal money game I used to play: called cribbage; each ball on the table has a partner that adds to 15 (but the fifteen ball of course). Say you make the 2 and 6 ball on the break, your only choices are the 13 and the 9 cause those partner with the two sunk balls (you can push out after the break). If you don't make any partner ball it gets spotted on the foot spot (and many times in the game you end up with a row of ball on the foot spot, which means that all of their partners are out on the table). Each cribbage (a pair) is worth a set number of dollars but for each pair you make in a row the money increases like this: first cribbage is a dollar, second cribbage is two dollars, third is three, so you make three in a row you get six dollars. The fifteen ball is the break ball, sort of like in straight pool, so you have to maneuver it to a break position. First one to a frozen amount of money wins, so the length of the match is determined by the amount of money you freeze up, and the amount you win is determined by how much you are ahead of your opponent because they keep whatever money they've won off you and you keep whatever money you've won from them. Between even players, it's sometimes a wash, but the great thing about the game is that there's so much incentive to bury your opponent cuase that's the only way you can make money. Lot's of fun but brutal. --Fuhghettaboutit 04:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Pro vs. colloquial rules and variations

Resolved

 – Long since fixed.

Roger, I liked most of the changes but here's what I changed and why: the article said that "each player" could push out only once, implying that each player got one push out per game (two total), this coulkd be easilt mispercieved, so I reworked that, The other main change is that you placed official after "came to dominate the sport (paraphrasing), which is then followed by that "the rule variation is what is followed by the offical rules maintained by the BCA. The point there was that push out rules dominate the way the game is played AND are what are played in official rules, which is true; most nine ball players play texas express rules even if they are not following all official rules, so this construction highlights that it dominates boith the way the games is played and official rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuhghettaboutit (talk • contribs)

Hope you don't mind me moving this section to this header :). Here in New Jersey, in social settings, I personally have never heard of "Texas Express" rules or variants. Not that that means much; I only play occasionally, and always socially. At any rate, I felt that, based on your knowledge, you meant that it dominated league and/or tournament play, and not social play; so I used the word "official". I'm beginning to feel that the readers might best be served if the rules were defined in two separate sections, one which deals with "official" play, such as league and tournament, and another which deals with "social and recreational" play, just to avoid confusion. Let me know what you think :) --RogerK 02:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Mind? I have no ownership pride over these articles. I just like to keep them factually correct. I don't think nine ball needs this; most players who are advanced enough to play nine ball play by rules that are not too different from professional rules. Most play with just pne push out only after the break. Now eight ball, that would be a great idea, since most players haven't a clue as to professional rules. Unfortunately I don't know how you could segragate the rules played by amateurs into its own secton since they can't agree on them! A bar on one side of the street may play by different rules than the bar on the other side. By the way, just wrote the article on the great Jean Balukas. Your input would be valued. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuhghettaboutit (talk • contribs)

Called shots

Resolved

 – No consensus to add random, regional amateur rules variants.

I'm sorry, but this article deals with more than just professional play, and called shots in 9 ball are, indeed, required in some settings. There is no reason to delete this section; it is not superfluous at all. Readers have the right to know what is required when 9 ball is played in that circumstance. --RogerK 05:01, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

These are not the rules of professional play They are the rules of nine ball--just like the rules of baseball are the rules of baseball, and the rules of [insert game] are the rules of [that game]. Would you have the encyclopedia article on nine ball give instructions for a variant of the game rarely played? I think I understand your concern but it's based on a misperception--you think that a large percentage of people don't play or attempt to play by "professional rules." This is incorrect. The majority of people who play nine ball, play by the rules of nine ball and not some call shot variant. This article should be about nine ball and not some other, similar game. Nine ball is not a call shot game--period. Fuhghettaboutit 15:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't like to make unilateral edits in the face of opposition, but I am an expert on this topic. However, I'll provide some corroboration.

As stated in the World Standardized Rules: 9-Ball:

5.1 OBJECT OF THE GAME Nine-Ball is played with nine object balls numbered one through nine and a cue ball. On each shot, the first ball the cue ball contacts must be the lowest numbered ball on the table, but the balls need not be pocketed in order. If a player pockets any ball on a legal shot, he remains at the table for another shot, and continues until missing, committing a foul, or winning the game by pocketing the 9-ball. After a miss, the incoming player must shoot from the position left by the previous player, but after any foul the incoming player may start with the cue ball anywhere on the table. Players are not required to call any shot. A match ends when one of the players has won the required number of games. (emphasis supplied)

As stated in the Texas Express Official 9-Ball Rules:

1.1: Object of the Game ...Numbered balls do not have to be pocketed in numerical order, provided the lowest numbered ball on the table is contacted first. There is no requirement that any shot or pocket be declared prior to shooting. Each player continues to play until he or she 1) fails to legally pocket a numbered ball, 2) fouls, or 3) wins the game. (emphasis supplied):

As stated in the Official Billiard Congress of America Rules(which simply link to WSR)

1.1: Object of the Game '...Players are not required to call any shot....

The same rules are cited in numerous other sources, often copying the text of one of these official repository of the rules of nine ball. See for example:On the Snap Rules, Triangle Billiards, The American CueSports Alliance and The University Poolplayers Association.

Moreover, and apropos of the apparent [incorrect] belief you are operating under that the majority of amateurs play call shot, the largest amateur pool league in the world, the The American Poolplayers Association (APA) follows BCA rules (as quoted above).

Fuhghettaboutit 01:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. You obviously don't play in taverns and billiard parlors. Those of you who are aligned with organizations may always play by the "official rules", but this article does not yet have a header entitled "Nine Ball rules", nor does the article need to be restricted to such a narrow perspective. Inclusion of information relating to called shots does not make the article "un-encyclopedic". The called game is not "rarely played" in social settings. I've played 9 ball for more than 40 years in these settings, and I assure you that in the great majority of those games, it was required to call the 9. To include information about called shots is to include an aspect of the game of 9 ball as it may be played by a cross-section of people who are not members of professional or amateur organizations. I understand that you are an expert; you make that fact quite obvious. And I know what the BCA rules are. The removal of this paragraph was either carried out or approved by you without so much as a comment on the discussion page. Have you been appointed as the official judge of what may or may not be stated in this article? By whose standard is this information not admissible in this article? --RogerK 02:30, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I would like to point out that I sometimes play nine ball nude with a garden rake as a cue, as do many people I know. Therefore I think this should be a part of an encyclopedia article about nine ball. --JoelBest 11:24, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

RogerK, if you can cite multiple independent reliable sources for the statement that "called shots in 9 ball are, indeed, required in some settings", then feel free to add some material about that to the article, so cited. To address your anecdotal insistence that you play called-shot nine-ball all the time recreationally, I can counter anecdotally that I've been playing pool religiously for over a decade, in New Mexico, Maryland, Virginia, Washington DC, Washington state, California, Ontario, and Ireland (I move a lot...), and I have never been asked to play called-shot in nine-ball, other than one time, by a pair of wanna-be hustlers in San Francisco, who were literally laughed out loud at by everyone within earshot and who I took for over $100, and another $40 when they switched to darts (about which they didn't know much either, apparently). >;-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Strategy

Perhaps someone should include a section on strategy? 9-ball requires positional play, as well as running out or playing safe. Since it seems the people who take care of this article are "pros", you guys can work out the rest. 71.250.9.119 13:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

This would have to be done carefully if at all, because of WP:NOT rules against giving advice or including guide/how-to style information. Some discussion of the nature of nine-ball strategy and how it differs from, say, eight-ball strategy is probably warranted, though. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Please review: Consensus and consistency needed on spelling to prevent ambiguity & confusion

Resolved

 – Just an FYI; page is now an draft guideline, at WP:CUESPELL

Especially for nine-ball but also for eight-ball, one-pocket, and even snooker, etc., I firmly think we need to come to, and as editors enforce in article texts, a consensus on spelling conventions and implement it consistently throughout all of the cue sports Wikepedia articles. I advocate (and herein attempt to justify) a system of standardized spellings, based on 1) general grammar rules; 2) basic logic; and 3) disambiguation.

This is a draft submission to the active editor community of billiards-related articles on Wikipedia. It is intended to ultimately end up being something like "[[Wikipedia:[something:]Billiards/Spelling guidelines]]", or part of an official Wikipedia cue sports article-shepherding Project, likely it's first documentation output.

Anyway, please help me think this through. The point is not for me to become world famous™ for having finally codified billiards terms and united the entire English-speaking world in using them (hurrah). I simply want the articles here on pool and related games to be very consistent in application of some new consensus Wikipedia editing standards about spelling/phrasing of easily confusable billards terms that may be ambiguous to many readers in the absence of that standard.

Compare:

1. "While 9-ball is a 9-ball game, the 9-ball is the real target; pocket it in a 9-ball run if you have to, but earlier is better." (Huh?)
2. "While nine-ball is a nine ball game, the 9 ball is the real target; pocket it in a nine ball run if you have to, but earlier is better." (Oh, right!)

That's the super-simple "use case" I make for this proposed nomenclature. If you think that the differentiation didn't cut it please TELL ME, and say how you would improve it.

So, here's the article draft so far (please do not edit it directly! Post on its Discussion page instead; thanks.): User:SMcCandlish/Pool_terms

(PS: This intro text is repeated at the top of it.) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Marking this topic resolved, because the page is now "live", at WP:CUESPELL, and has its own talk page. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Cue sports

Resolved

 – The project is "live", at WP:CUE

Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Cue sports. Any comments, or better yet interested editors to participate? — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 01:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Marking this topic "Resolved" since the project is live and has its own talk page now. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

"Valuable 5 ball" variant?

Unresolved

 – This has been mentioned before, at WT:CUEGLOSS; it is probably a sourceable variant.

There's a passage that says that in non-tournament variants of the game, "the 5 ball may be considered of value". What is that about? And can it be sourced? I've never heard of this that I can recall. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The whole article needs better sourcing, but until such time as that is done, any statement that is questioned can be removed:-) For what it's worth, I have no idea about that either.--Fuhghettaboutit 13:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 02:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I have since encountered this several times, in more than one locale. It is a side bet (usu. 50% of main bet) placed on pocketing the 5 ball. When this is done the 5 is almost always placed at the very back of the rack (the anti-apex ball). E.g., we might say: "I'll play you a race to 3 for $20." "Okay, but I want $10 on the 5." This can almost certainly be sourced from some hustler/road player bio book or another. I would not add it back in right now w/o a source, even though I know for a fact that it is real (I played it not more than a three weeks ago, at someone else's instigation!), just on general principle, but it should be put in there eventually, with reliable sources. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 00:37, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I've come across this variant too as participating in a local tournament recently. Don't now it's legal name but it was presented by the name nine-five. Possibly an abbreviation of nine-five pool or, less likely, nine-five billiards with nine-five as a possible legal name variation. 77.105.194.23 (talk) 21:14, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

"Great feats"

Unresolved

 – May be a valuable addition if sourced.

Reverted addition of a new section, entirely unsourced, but it might have potential if sourceable. The very fact that they are alleged great feats demands that they be sourced, and reliably at that. The section, entirely contributed here by 61.9.126.41 (talk · contribs) though some of these points have come up in some of the player bio articles (and flagged as needing sourcing there as well):

==Great Feats==
* At an exhibition, [[Earl Strickland]], and American pool specialist, ran 11 racks and earned a great prize of $1,000,000.

* Filipino veteran [[Jose Parica]] won a race-to-eleven match without mistakes. 

* [[Rodolfo Luat]] and [[Alex Pagulayan]], while competing in separate occasions, pocketed 6 balls in the break. Possibly, this is most balls ever pocketed when breaking in [[9-ball]].

— SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't added that section. I just fix spelling errors whenever I peruse "Recent Changes" on Wikipedia. I don't even like playing pool. :-) Minh T. Nguyen 05:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

My bad; it was 61.9.126.41 who provided the material. He/she is now credited appropriately above. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 09:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Note to self or any other editor: At least one of the six-balls-pocketed breaks is sourced now. If both are, this tidbit could be added back into the article. The others sound interesting as well, but w/o sources they shouldn't go in the article, per WP:ATT. I think the Strickland point may be as well. If this remains unresolved for a few days ping me on my talk page and I'll look into it. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 09:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I've pocketed six balls twice. Lots of people have. It's not a great feat at all. I don't remember the source, but I remember reading that "Hurricane" Tony Ellin pocketed eight balls on the break with witnesses present. Now that's a feat. As for Strickland, if I remember correctly, that incident was the lead story in both pool and billiard magazine and Billiards digest at the time. The text above is deceptive. The controversy surrounded the fact that the insurance company that was backing giving out the prize for running 11 racks or more refused to pay (and never did as far as I know) because a number of the racks were made by pocketing the 9 ball on the break and other were made by combinations during the game. It came down to whether those racks were considered part of the "run out" that counted toward 11 contiguous racks.--Fuhghettaboutit 13:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah so. This Strickland thing sounds like it just belongs in his article then. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 02:23, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Push-out clarification

Resolved

 – Question answered.

When a player calls a push-out, can the player touch any balls with the cue when he does so? What happens if he does?75.75.110.235 22:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The cue ball can touch any balls or no balls, and can be used to pocket balls including the nine. Any balls pocketed other than the nine stay down with no penalty to the pusher. If the nine ball is made, is is spotted to the foot spot also without any penalty to the pusher.--Fuhghettaboutit 22:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

In case the anon meant the cue stick rather than the cue ball, that would depend on the agreed-upon rules (cue-ball-fouls-only or all-fouls). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Clarification request

Unresolved

 – Clarification request is quite resonable, but not yet implemented.

Having read the rules section, and noted that "The object of the game is to pocket the 9 ball in a legal manner" I'm slightly baffled as to what the benefit is to the player of potting other balls. I'm familiar with the rules of snooker, where points are earned for every pot, but that seems not to be the case here. Is it just so that you "get another go", and can hopefully manoeuvre yourself into a better position for an attempt to pot the 9 ball (either directly or indirectly)? I feel the article would benefit from this being made clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.195.2 (talk) 02:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you figured it out correctly, but I'm surprised that it took any figuring. Where is the article not clear? You must hit the lowest-numbered ball on the table first, so the only possible legal ways to pocket the 9 are to hit the lowest-numbered ball on the table and either drive it into the 9 (directly or via another ball between them) to pocket the 9, or carom off of that ball into the (directly or not) to pocket the 9; or the 9 is the only ball left on the table, so you, um, pocket it. It's a self-answering question, isn't it? Where can the text be improved in this regard? Is there a sentence that is worded poorly? — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC) PS: Generally, there are not "points" in nine-ball (an exception is VNEA team nine-ball, in which the odd-numbered balls are worth points in teams' overall match scores for statistics purposes, but the game is played exactly as described in the article). It might not hurt to mention all this in the article. I can source it, too, since I have a VNEA rulebook. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:52, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Being British, having only ever played the 15-ball game, and knowing nothing about american forms of pool, I came to this article in search of a brief description of the the game, ie what it is that one is trying to do, and how one is supposed to go about doing it. I found it very difficult to sift through the information given here and needed help from what SMcC has written here in this section of the talk page finally to put it all together. In the intro the only piece of info is "The game may be played ... subject to whatever rules are agreed upon beforehand", which is less helpful that might have been originally imagined. IMO the article assumes too much background knowledge on the part of the reader. Maybe a short paragraph on the basics at the beginning would solve the problem, something that starts along the lines of "the aim of Nine-ball is to pot the yellow ninth ball; however ..." almost-instinct 11:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable to me. Not sure when any of us will DO it, mind you. On the side, I have to say that nine-ball is not particularly American any longer (i.e. for the last 30+ years). The game did originate here in Yankeeland, but it is today the most consistently internationalized pool game in the world, and certainly the professional game, regardless of national origin. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 00:43, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I made some edits to the second paragraph of the "play" section that hopefully help make it completely clear the object of the game and the caveats of winning/losing. I described that the losing player could pocket object balls 1-8 during play and still lose. All though I must agree that it was pretty clear before that there are no points and that it clearly stated the object of the game is just to pocket the 9 ball. I also condensed and "unclunked" what a legal shot is. I condensed some of the info into more plain facts. for instance I got rid of "because nine ball is a no call game the 9 ball can be pocketed for a win at any time of the game" (paraphrasing). It can be won just because those are the rules, not because it's no call. If it were a call game, one could still win at any shot, just not on accident. So instead I just stated that it's no call, and stated it can be won on any shot, and didn't try to connect the two. I also have another issue with the "no-rail foul" that I am bringing up in a new section, so please see below. Dancindazed (talk) 06:06, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

No rail foul when ball pocketed?

Resolved

 – Clarified.

In the article it says "In nine-ball, on all shots, a player must cause the cue ball to contact the lowest numerical ball on the table first before the cue ball strikes any other ball and subsequently contact a rail with either the cue ball, the object ball, or any balls contacted by the two (except when a push-out has been invoked; see "The push-out", below); otherwise a foul has been committed. "

The way they write it sounds like it is a foul if you hit the lowest ball straight into a pocket(or combo lowest into another, straight in, etc.) without hitting any rails with the object ball, a numbered ball it hits, or the cue ball. I thought the no rail foul was only when you didn't get the object ball in?

on the BCA world standardized rules http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_9bl.shtml

it says

5.9 NO RAIL

If no object ball is pocketed, failure to drive the cue ball or any numbered ball to a rail after the cue ball contacts the object ball on is a foul.

seems to say the same thing in many other articles:

if you don't pocket a ball, then no rail is foul. if you do pocket ball(legal) then you don't need to hit rail

Dan39 (talk) 03:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

You are correct about the rule and I have clarified the section in various ways including making this clear.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:26, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Noel Tate

Who? Never heard. Exactly what has he won to earn the title "current world champion"? I thougt the previous WPA world nine-ball champ was Daryl Peach ('07). Google doesn't seem to recognise Tate either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.20.147.201 (talk) 12:30, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

No rail foul rule problem

the no rail rule is unclear when it comes to an object ball is frozen to a rail. I've played in tournaments, for 9-ball, one pocket, etc where if the non-shooting player points out or declares that the object ball is frozen to the rail, that the shooting player must either contact the object ball to one of the other three rails, or contact the cue ball to a rail. in other words just softly banking an object ball off the rail, is not considered to be an object balll "contacting a rail after the cue ball contacts". I find it odd that the official rules I read don't cover this specifically, but you can often see it described in individual tournaments' rule descriptions. if you consider that the frozen object ball is leaving the rail at the same time as the cue ball contacting the object ball and not "after" then it's vaguely described in the rules.. but then it becomes a scientific debate. So should we ignore this intricacy or should I try to add it in somewhere? Dancindazed (talk) 06:21, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely. If an object ball is frozen and called frozen, then it's rebound from that rail (and failure to return) does not satisfy the ball and rail rule. The cue ball must thereafter contact a rail, or the ball (or another ball of course) must be driven to a different rail or be pocketed. It sounds like you have come across players saying that the cue ball striking the same rail as the ball after the contact does not meet the rule. If that is what you meant, that is incorrect.

This issue mainly comes up when you strike a ball too full with the cue ball while it's frozen, and the cue ball bounces off, never contacting the rail. The only other place I know where this happens is when you try to send a frozen ball down the rail using inside english on an extreme cut shot by striking the rail first (about a credit card's width before the ball)—you strike the rail first with the cue ball; the cue sinks into the rail, then on the rebound it spins into the ball sending it down the rail. An extremely useful shot, but if you hit it too softly you may not get a rail afterwards, and since you struck the rail first with the cue ball, you still need a rail afterwards. The World Rules do provide detail on this. See rule 8.4 Driven to a Rail: "A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns." As always, the "BCAPL". (the best rule set by far) state with more clarity. See page 26.

As for adding it in, I'm not sure that it belongs. We don't even attempt to list numerous rules that cover the game. We don't list all fouls for example (though we do in WP:CUEGLOSS). We can't cover all the rules here, but we do hit the highlights. This is actually a general rule of pocket billiards and not specific to nine-ball (the same rule applies in eight-ball, one-pocket, straight pool, etc.) so it's not a "nine ball rule" per se.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 07:12, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok I agree with you then, given your points. The Nine-ball page does not need to list every foul or every rule of the game, especially considering the rules that are not specific to the game. I guess the idea came from the fact that before I made some edits yesterday, the no rail rule was attempted to be explained, and I tried to clean it up a bit so I was wondering if we should make that exact but I see your point. Regarding the same rail thing, It wasn't the cue ball, but the object that I'd thought was supposed to contact a separate rail than the one it was frozen to. In other words, taking your rail first shot situation, let's say the three-ball is struck and slowly rides the rail toward the pocket but never goes in, and the cueball never hits any other rail, then it's a foul. That way you don't have two guys arguing over whether or not the three-ball actually ever came off the rail and back to it, as often it's not easy to tell, especially if the table being played on is not perfect. But given your pasting above, it seems like that argument is encouraged because it states that the object ball can come back to the same rail it was frozen to and that would avoid the foul. I find this new information and interesting. Dancindazed (talk) 17:30, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to reply to my own post, but after reading the rulebook pdf that you linked to above, it states "if the ball used to meet the cushion contact requirement in rule 1.19.1(b) (the no rail rule) is declared frozen to a cushion at the beginning of the shot, then that ball must leave the cushion it is frozen to and then: a. contact a cushion other than the one to which it was frozen, or; b. contact another ball before it contacts the cushion to which it is frozen. Note that it says other than the one to which it was frozen. So it appears my experience is the correct interpretation of the rule. Only if it touches a ball and comes back can that rail be used to satisfy a legal shot. coming back from spin or "rail lean" wouldn't count. Where did you get that pasting that it says "unless it leaves the rail and returns"? Dancindazed (talk) 18:08, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Rule sets don't always agree. You're right that the World Rules (which are here) and the BCAPL have some variations. The World Rules though are the most "official" rules there are. With rules and pool, it's a twilight zone; there are no official rules really, there only authoritative rules. If I wrote them they would not be so ambiguous. Many tables have a groove underneath the rail where the cloth has worn down slightly. Often when you send a ball down the rail the ball is falling toward the rail slightly and touches it and comes away about 50 times before it reaches the pocket. That's why the BCAPL are just better. They don't just say more, but they try to address ambiguity. I think they're better here by requiring a different rail entirely, but for better or worse, the World Rules are the most "official" we have and they unfrotunately say returning to the rail meets the rule. We agree: it's a recipe for arguments!--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 18:35, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Cirno

Shouldn't there be a section on Touhou's resident ⑨? 108.193.230.201 (talk) 02:03, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Equipment

Hi, I think we need a section for the "Equipment" used for nine-ball, such as the pool table size, pool ball diameter, pocket style, etc. Any comments? Aquataste (talk) 12:47, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Nine-ball doesn't use any distinct and specific equipment separate from other pool games, outside of a diamond-shaped rack (and even then the standard triangle can be used usually). So instead of a specific equipment section this article only needs a link to the general pool (cue sports) article and any equipment-specific articles like billiard balls, which we already do. oknazevad (talk) 04:02, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Nine-ball/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Nova Crystallis (talk · contribs) 19:39, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Reviewing later. Nova Crystallis (Talk) 19:39, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 2 needs an author.
  • Added Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 06:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
• Ref 3 should be replaced with this, which isn't a SPS.

• Not quite sure what the ref has to do with the sentence it was citing though.

• • Removed as doesn't cite the info. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 06:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Saving for now. Nova Crystallis (Talk) 03:42, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

• Several references are missing |publisher=.
  • Added where suitable Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:22, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
• "but that their opponent would struggle with.[16][8]" Reorder refs.
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:09, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
• "If a player misses potting a ball on a shot," You mean pocketing a ball?
  • These things are one and the same... But potting a ball is slightly more stringent in that you have to pocket the ball without fouling. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 06:29, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
• A bit of WP:REPCITE in the first paragraph of Breaking and the Six-ball section.

• No page numbers from Ref 4?

• • • There is? :24, 89–90 Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:09, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

That should be it. I assume some of the references were the best one you could've found online, since some are borderline SPS. Nova Crystallis (Talk) 02:25, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Nova Crystallis I've covered all of the above. Thank you for taking a look for me. :) Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:22, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

This article is not at all helpful

Maybe this all makes sense to a person who already knows how to play nine-ball pool, but the intended audience should be people who know nothing about the subject at all. As a person who has never even heard of nine ball, I still have no clue how this game works after reading the rules three times. So nine balls numbered 1 to 9 are put on the table. Two players are in attendance...one of them breaks. The obect of the game is to hit the lowest numbered ball. And some other more technical details. Okay, now how about explaining how two players play on the SAME set of nine balls. When does one person's turn end and the other players turn begin? These are pretty basic questions that are not answered in the text. If they are both shooting for the same set of 1 to 9, and presumably there is some mechanism that gives each player a chance to make shots, how does it work shooting the same set of balls? First player takes 8 shots and sinks all of them, sinking balls 1-8, but misses the ninth shot. Leaving player B with a single ball to hit, the ninth, lowest on the table. So he makes his shot, sinks it, and wins, because it was the last ball? That makes no sense, but from the information provided I have to assume that's how it's played. Either that or it's taken strictly in turn, shot for shot, and player who sinks 5 or more of the 9 is the winner, regardless of the person who sinks the 9? Or points are awarded for each ball sunk? It's a mystery to me, and this page does not make it at all clearer, unless I am just missing something very important. In which case it seems a if it could be made more obvious, since I cannot spot it.

Idumea47b (talk) 04:59, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi Idumea47b, After reading your post, I took a look at the rules section and (approaching it doing my best to see it from the vantage point of someone entirely unfamiliar with the game), have attempted to clarify the section with this edit and its edit summary. Please note that the link I just provided to the diff, which shows the raw changes I made, may be less helpful than viewing the section as clarified directly in the article, because those codes I used, e.g., "{{Cuegloss|name}}", format in the rendered text as links to definitions in our glossary article for the sport, for further information on their meanings. Please advise whether this edit shed any sunlight, and if it's still unclear to you, it would be helpful to advise the specifics. Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:46, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

As to answer the question, yes, players shoot at the same set of balls, always aiming at the lowest ball on the table, and whichever one happens to sink the 9 ball wins, regardless if the other player sank all of the other 8. Or if the one layer runs the entire rack and the opponents doesn't even get a shot. It's the luck and skill aspects of the game. It's also one of the common criticisms of the game. The subsection on the break describes it more fully. oknazevad (talk) 18:43, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I'd be happy to rewrite the rules section if there are things missing (realistically it's pretty simple, you play from 1-9 unless you miss or foul, or if you pot the nine.) I'm on wikibreak due to a move, but I'm happy to rectify any issues if there is specific faults. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:39, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Fuhghettaboutit and I have both made some tweaks, but I do think a reworking could be in order. The breaking out of the rules for breaks makes some sense because otherwise they'd overwhelm the rest of the rules section, but at the same time it also has the effect of causing the section as a whole to poorly describe the flow of the game. I think they need to be better integrated, with less over-focus on the break. Yes it's important to the game, especially at the pro level. But it's literally one shot per game, and there are usually many more. oknazevad (talk) 20:18, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

No problem. I can take a look when I'm back. You are right, it is a little convoluted. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:27, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

No need to pocket in order

The intro says:

"players must strike the white cue ball to pocket nine colored billiard balls in ascending numerical order."

But this is not true: balls can be pocketed in any order. Except for a push out(?), the lowest numbered ball remaining on the table must be struck by the cue ball first.

I am not confident in my knowledge of the rules nor in the best way to phrase them. But I'm certain "pocketed ... in ... order" is false.

--24.212.191.236 (talk) 03:57, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I have reworded to clarify. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:44, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

9-ball in The Hustler?

I don't know if the term 9 ball was ever spoken in the movie or the book, but there were certainly no one playing 9 ball in either.

WikiAlto (talk) 00:02, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Clearly you need to rewatch the film. The game Eddie is playing in the pool hall where he gets his thumbs broken is unambiguously nine-ball. oknazevad (talk) 08:29, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. I just found a clip of that scene. My apologies (if a bit late) and thanks. WikiAlto (talk) 10:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

"The Hustler" has a running time of 134 minutes, a very significant portion of which is spent in pool halls. Nine-ball is played in one scene that lasts 5 minutes, and it's being played for only about two and a half minutes. That doesn't make it before the ToC notable. --- wfaulk (talk) 06:52, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

It's not about it being a significant part of the film, it's about the film's usage being a significant thing mentioned in sources, which is it. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:50, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

It's in the film. Period. It's also the sole discipline player in the sequel, so removing that was completely useless. I reverted you. oknazevad (talk) 12:42, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

As long as it remains in the article (for reasons given by both the previous two commenters), I'm not sure I care if it's in the lead section. If we're going to mention fictional media at all, it would be The Color of Money that is a must-keep in the lead. That said, I'm not advocating directly for removing The Hustler from the lead; just kind of neutral on it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:15, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Pushout rule

The description of the pushout is incorrect. It is legal for the breaker to play a pushout on his second shot, presuming that a ball was potted legally on the break. The article implies that only the non-breaker can play a pushout. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jnfnt (talk • contribs) 06:44, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Corrected. It was clearly an incorrect reading of the official rules, which were used as the source. oknazevad (talk) 08:30, 13 September 2022 (UTC)