Talk:Mughalsarai

This is not a minor mistake

DEEN DAYAL WAS DIED IN MUGHALSARIA SITA POWDEL (talk) 06:58, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 1 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (closed by non-admin page mover) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:45, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

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Mughalsarai → Deendayal Upadhyaya Nagar – common use after name changed officially ... Anubhavklal (talk) 17:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose: 1) News sources - In the time frame - 1 July 2018 (after the name change) to 1 July 2023, "Mughalsarai city" gets 8 hits and "Deendayal Upadhyaya Nagar city" gets ZERO hits. I had to add 'city' since without it google lists everything associated with the two terms.

2) Book sources - "Mughalsarai city" gets 1,470 hits while "Deendayal Upadhyaya Nagar city" gets ZERO. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 20:51, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Need to search for "Deen Dayal Upadhyaya Nagar" – around 70 hits are there, esp. if other languages are added in Search settings. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:47, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@Kashmiri: I don't think we are supposed to use other languages per this excerpt from WP:COMMONNAME - it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above.. Yes, we get some hits if "Deen Dayal Upadhyaya Nagar" is used without "city". That would be 7 hits of which 2 are in Hindi. None in the book sources using "Deen Dayal Upadhyaya Nagar". - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:15, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Book sources: precisely 107 hits (Why Google hit number is bonkers]) — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:18, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

@Kashmiri: I still getting 8. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:56, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I meant Mughalsarai, sorry. — kashmīrī ^TALK 14:13, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose I couldn't find any usage of the target [in Google News] no evidence of the new name becoming the WP:UCRN; WP:NAMECHANGE — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 21:42, 3 July 2023 (UTC) (amended 22:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC))
• Oppose. No indication that the new name has overtaken the centuries-old Mughalsarai as WP:COMMONNAME, both in writing and in speech. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:48, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per user:Fylindfotberserk, user:DaxServer, and user:Kashmiri and also for a historical duty of care (not in a legal sense) to a place that was a "Sarai," or wayside inn, from the time of the Mughal empire and one of the widely-connecting junctions of the railways of British India, and in a general sense hearkening to the Caravanserai of South Asia, West Asia, Central Asia and southern Europe's histories. What does a little-known leader of a Hindu-nationalist volunteer paramilitary organization that was founded long after the Mughal empire had faded away, after the railways in India were a given of its geography, have to do with it? Nothing except political one-upmanship. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  PS I just discovered that it is only a couple of miles from the Ganges river banks. So oppose also for Iqbal's Taranah-e-Hindi's:

  ai āb-rūd-e-gañgā vo din hai yaad tujh ko

  utrā tire kināre jab kārvāñ hamārā Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:06, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  i.e. O the flowing waters of the Ganges, do you remember that day

  When our caravan first alighted on your waterfront? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:12, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per above. Is the Indian government intent on confusing everyone by imposing ridiculously long and obscure names on everything? -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:27, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  They have simply run out of ideas in their mad drive to remove anything even remotely reminiscent of India's Muslim history. — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:11, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  Please be civil and keep out aspersions. The government is definitely not good at naming cities though. I would have named it Sarai which has a beautiful vibe when used without the Mughal prefix. Fayninja (talk) 04:49, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  Why would you have it renamed? What's wrong for you with its current name? — kashmīrī ^TALK 12:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  Because Mughals killed Dara Shikoh and Sarmad. Not a great empire to idealise with the stain of Aurangzeb. No hate for him though. I love the likes of both Hitler and Buddha. Fayninja (talk) 15:58, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support: Boring but still an official name. Bypass all comments (WP:IAR). Keep "previously known as Mughalsarai" in the lead for a few years or decades so that readers can find it and get used to the change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fayninja (talk • contribs) 05:17, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support: As stated above this delaying tactics for changed names of Indian cities is getting extremely boring on Wikipedia. It will get changed anyway a year or few years down the line; So what's the point in screeching the brakes on the inevitable.–JayB91 (talk) 16:22, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

  But when the current Hindu nationalist dispensation changes, the city's name will be officially changed back to Mughalsarai. It is as certain as death and taxes. So why waste our breath on political fly-by-nights Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:10, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  fly-by-night in the meaning of transitory or passing, not shady or unreliable. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:15, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  As per WP:COMM the article name should be common name and not official name. Then how does it matter who the government will be? The established fact is that the common name now is Pandit Deendayal Nagar. So the article name should be same. Which government is in power doesn't mean anything in this discussion Anubhavklal (talk) 12:38, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  Fowler&fowler; What makes you so sure it will ever change back? –JayB91 (talk) 02:00, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  Even if it does,that is not a criteria to keep the wrong information on Wikipedia now. Anubhavklal (talk) 00:57, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. The available evidence is that Mughalsarai is the commonly-used English-language name. There is not even a commonly agreed way of writing the new name in English. For example: Google News searches for the period 1 January to 6 July 2023:
  • "Mughalsarai" 258
  • "Deen Dayal Upadhyaya Nagar" 9
  • "Deendayal Upadhyay Nagar" 7
  • "Deendayal Upadhyaya Nagar" 2
  • "Deen Dayal Upadhyay Nagar" 2

It is worth noting that there are places named after Deen Dayal Upadhyay in other parts of India.-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

July 2023

@Anubhavklal: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cities/Settlements:_Article_structure#Notable_people clearly says "Names of notable people born or residing in the locality (not ancestry). Include only people with a Wikipedia article". Deen Dayal Upadhyaya article mentions nothing about him staying in the city. Only his dead body was found there. Stop contravening Wikipedia policies. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:48, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I do not want to engage in editwar so I leave it to other users to decide Anubhavklal (talk) 08:52, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

User @Fylindfotberserk Pls do not make disruptive edits.

If there are any guidelines which prohibits an entry in this section, or makes it irrelevant, we can remove it. But deleting something unilaterally just because you don't like a petson is not desirable. Perhaps your hatred for the same person is the real reason for your opposition to page rename too. Anubhavklal (talk) 08:49, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

This is not unilateral. It is a policy, I'm following it. YOur moves were contentious. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:51, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on policies and guidelines. If you think working in accordance with them is 'hatred', then you can find many articles moves that I've opposed and supported, which can be inferred as 'hate'/'love'. FYI, I was a member of the RSS in college. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:00, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

You are free to member of any group but at Wikipedia, any membership doesn't give you extra privileges Anubhavklal (talk) 09:09, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I was member of the RSS that's why I'm 'hating' Mr. Upadhyaya? That would be a contradictory statement. Anyway, getting back on track, my edits were based on the policy above. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:18, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Moratorium

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Given the clear lack of consensus for moving in RfC above, and in view of our experience with Allahabad and incessant rename requests there from anonymous drive-by editors, I'd like to propose a two-year moratorium on moving Mughalsarai. — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:29, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Oppose : How does it help in improving Wikipedia?

If you have any valid reasons to retain the current article title and not align it with commonly used name, discuss that on this talk page.

Else let's keep the commonly used name as the page title, as that is the policy of Wikipedia.

If you have any evidence that currently used common name and the page title are same, please share that too. Anubhavklal (talk) 17:05, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

And regarding Allahabad, if you have any evidence that Prayagraj is not the common name and not the right title for that page, discuss that too on respective talk page Anubhavklal (talk) 17:07, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

ROTFL. — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:10, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

• Strong support for a two-year moratorium.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:26, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support two-year moratorium. Move discussions need to be based on evidence; an 18-month or two year period gives time for new evidence to happen.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:15, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose no need for a moratorium. It stifles active discussion. The place name has been changed and the wiki page is eventually going to be moved anyway one day in future. Let there be debate.–JayB91 (talk) 21:16, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support : Would support a moratorium, but 2 years may be excessive. Didn't we have 1 year for Allahabad→Prayagraj? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:17, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

The last moratorium for Allahabad→Prayagraj was 18 months. That figure was chosen because it would give enough time for search results to be noticeably different from those used in the previous move discussion. From the point of view of people who wanted the move to take place, this turned out to be very helpful.-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:32, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment:- Would support a moratorium of 18 months which was there at Prayagraj. Two years will be a long time. It might hamper a good discussion.

Shaan Sengupta (talk) 03:20, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

There appears to be a consensus for an 18-month moratorium on page rename. The moratorium period thus runs from 9 July 2023 until 9 January 2025. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:51, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 20 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Request speedy closed in view of the ongoing moratorium on page moves (see the preceding section). (non-admin closure) — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:56, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

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Mughalsarai → Deendayal Upadhyaya Nagar – WP:COMM Anubhavklal (talk) 22:51, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Name change

Mughalsarai→Pt. Deen Dayal Upadhyaya Nagar Jmurravi (talk) 17:26, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done See the 18 months moratorium above - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fylindfotberserk (talk • contribs) 17:33, 7 September 2023 (UTC)