Talk:Mohun Bagan AC/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

NPOV

The part on Mohun Bagan fans and East Bengal fans is not NPOV. - Pradiptaray

Who are you ? Kindly get your historical facts straight before making such sweeping generalizations, especially for such petty issues as football fandom. Such hatred is not part of Wikipedia, and definitely not a part of any sports discipline. I would like to conduct the dispute in a more rational manner. Pradiptaray 16:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Repeated Vandalism

There are a few users, who are repeatedly vandalising the page. Any steps that can be taken against this?

Ramit Mukherjee (talk) 05:18, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Edited

1.Changed Kit manufactures and shirt sponsors to a more commonly used model.I am Collecting data to make it complete. Please feel comfortable to edit it.

2.McDowell is not the sponser now. they changed their name and logo in the official facebook page.They said Website will be edited soon. So Logo should be replaced.

Vpgautham (talk) 04:43, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

deleted

The club have also won the Asia's most prestigiousAsian Champions League more times than any other club in India. Deleted for factual inaccuracy.

Rohit 09:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

edits

1.changed added data in team info box. 2.Team kit colours have been set.

Rohit 11:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

added

Honours section added. Currently details of National Football League and IFA Shield have been added. More coming soon.

enigma 10:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Imran

The link of Goalkeeper Imran points to Pak legend Imran Khan.

Simianwolverine 00:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Mb ac logo.png

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BetacommandBot 05:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 18:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Factual Error

Hong Kong FC was set up in 1886 and so it should be oldest football club in Asia. Please see the link http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Hong_Kong_FC . Kindly correct this. Shovon 09:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Current squad

First-Team Squad

As of 25th July 2011

Transfer period is going for new season: 2011-12.
Note: Flags indicate national team as defined under FIFA eligibility rules. Players may hold more than one non-FIFA nationality.

No.	Pos.	Nation	Player
1	Gy]]		{{{name}}}

No.	Pos.	Nation	Player
30	MF	IND	Gouranga Dutta {{Fs plaabi]]}}
49	MF	IND	Sakatar Singh
50	FW	NGA	Odafe Onyeka Okolie
51	FW	IND	Sunil Chhetri

References

Club Officials

• Coach: Steve Darby

• Asst Coach: Bernard Oparanozie

• Goalkeeper Coach: Hemanta Dora

• Physiotherapist cum Rehab Specialist: Jonathan Corner

Gaffer93 (talk) 16:23, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

? Only one of those officials appears to be notable. It would be better added as a sentence in the prose rather than as a list. Or I guess someone could create articles for them, although I doubt that the physio has any chance at all of surviving such a process. - Sitush (talk) 16:26, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Gaffer93 should be auto-confirmed and can make the edit themself if that is the consensus. Jnorton7558 (talk) 10:11, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

References

Edit request from 203.147.88.62, 31 July 2011

203.147.88.62 (talk) 16:39, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

No content here Jnorton7558 (talk) 10:04, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

 Not done Nothing requested. -- Dane2007 ^talk 04:11, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Mohun Bagan is not declared as the National

Kajal Bhattacharjee (talk) 10:55, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Mohun Bagan Athletic Club has never been declared as the National Club of India by any Prime Minister. Actually Prime Minister is not empowered to bestow such national honour to any person or organization. The President is empowered to give such national honour. It is a false propaganda by the Mohun Bagan followers that the club is the national club of India. List of national symbols is given in the constitution where anything like national club of India is not mentioned. Wikipedia should be more cautious about publishing such article containing wrong information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kajal Bhattacharjee (talk • contribs) 10:55, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

 Not done - When adding a semi protected request, use the format "Please change x to y". This request is not in the format. -- Dane2007 ^talk 04:10, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect Information

The page is frequently been updated with incorrect records of Kolkata Derby and Also Mohun Bagan is being referred as National Club of India which is totally Incorrect following are the National Elements of India there is no other national elements

and the correct derby statistics and the result of first derby between East Bengal and Mohun Bagan is stated clearly in the following sites including the Fifa website and i-league org website, the official football site of India

Dasgupta.rony (talk) 11:05, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

RfC on Mohun Bagan being the national club of India.

The consensus is to exclude the claim that Mohun Bagan has the title "national club of India" because this is an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim. There is no prejudice against discussing this again if more sources are found.

Cunard (talk) 04:49, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There is a dispute regarding whether Mohun Bagan was given the title of "National club of India". Requesting comments as this is a grey area, there are sources which claim they were given the title, that is however unacceptable to some.

Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 04:45, 3 June 2017 (UTC) Ramit Mukherjee 3:45, June 3 2017 (UTC)

• The source does claim this. I'm not sure how reliable goal.com is, since whenever I try to access it, it redirects me to the Canadian Sporting News site, which is a reliable source, but that status doesn't automatically apply to all its publications, especially overseas ones. It does seem to be a thing [3], but it's also an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim, so there should be better and more sources available. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 05:02, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
• Exclude in the absence of more clarifiying sources. (Summoned by bot) d.g. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 12:52, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

External links modified (February 2018)

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Repeated Vandalism

There are some users who are continuously using abusive words to vandalise this page. A significant step should be taken against such users. Deoxys32 (talk) 13:40, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 23 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nominator. GiantSnowman 17:58, 23 September 2020 (UTC) GiantSnowman 17:58, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

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Mohun Bagan A.C. → ATK Mohun Bagan FC – I am reopening this discussion with a new section because I did not agree with the result of the last discussion, a no consensus, and because the last discussion was filled with obvious brigading and non-discourse. The 2020–21 Indian Super League season is coming up next month and I think this needs to be resolved soon before the season starts. The reason I believe this article should be renamed from Mohun Bagan A.C. to ATK Mohun Bagan FC is as follows:

Per WP:NCST, I don't believe there is any ambiguity or confusion over the official spelling of the club's name in English. The club's official twitter (which is verified) is named ATK Mohun Bagan FC. The club's official website will be atkmohunbaganfc.in. The Indian Super League, the league that the club plays in, has the team named as ATK Mohun Bagan FC. The All India Football Federation, the official governing body for football in India has the club registered and listed as ATK Mohun Bagan FC. Additionally, we have reliable sources who call the club ATK Mohun Bagan FC. See examples such as this, this, this, this, this, this, and this.

There is no confusion here. The club was officially rebranded as ATK Mohun Bagan FC on 10 July 2020. Ever since, reliable sources have reported using that name, official accounts have been using the name. There is no doubt here. I think this needs to end now. No, changing the name doesn't hurt the club's image or history. No, this wouldn't confuse editors who decide to read at least two lines. So I am putting this out there. There needs to be a consensus. ArsenalFan700 (talk) 02:51, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

• Comment. The previous discussion (started 3 September and closed 22 September) is here in the talk page archive. 94.21.252.157 (talk) 03:33, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose and speedy procedural close. (edit conflict) This article is about the multi-sport athletic club called "Mohun Bagan A.C." – the football ops called "ATK Mohun Bagan FC" is a subtopic of the athletic club. The football ops title redirects to this page and evidently isn't notable enough for its own article, since it's been merged into this article at least three times. This particular page should remain at its current title. The previous move request, which was just closed for a second time and most recently by BD2412, an admin, can be found at Talk:Mohun Bagan A.C./Archive 2#Requested move 3 September 2020. The first closure of "not moved" was changed by BD2412 to "no consensus". That means that a new move request such as this one should have very strong NEW arguments to expect to be successful. So I recommend speedy closure of this request since the previous move request was closed about nine hours ago as I write this. And I sincerely hope that the nom, ArsenalFan700, refrains from BADGERING me like he appears to have done to other opposing editors in the previous move request. Not for anything, ArsenalFan700, but this is just wrong on several levels. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 03:52, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I am not badgering. I am trying to talk about this and if you read the previous discussion it is obvious that most people were speaking purely based on emotion. But look, let's talk about this. You said that this is an article about the athletic club... no, this article is about the football club. Regardless that this article opens with "Indian multi-sport club", the grand majority of this article is purely just about football. The history section deals with only football and has nothing about other sports. The rivalries section is also only about football, no other sports. The crest and colours, is also only about football in that the merger with ATK is mentioned in it. The "Kit manufacturers and shirt sponsors" section... also only football as these sponsors were football only. The stadium section is also only about football. The supporters section deals with only football. Notable players is only footballers. The players and coaching staff? Only football. Recent seasons? Only football. The honours section? Only football. This article is clearly just a football article, not an article for a multi-sport club. Also, the football club is notable as the club passes WP:FOOTYN and WP:GNG. So either way, we should have an article for ATK Mohun Bagan FC. Look, I am not an expert on wikipedia rules and etiquette, clearly, but I am willing to put myself on the line here because this shouldn't be a problem. The opposes in the previous section were all literally that this would violate WP:COMMONNAME, which I responded too and no one responded back, and that this would ruin the history of the club, which is a ridiculous argument when the actual club, the league, the AIFF, and even reliable sources are now calling the club by a different name. I am sorry again if you think this is badgering and sorry if I am but I do want to discuss this in good faith. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 04:14, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't mind discussing this with you, AF700; however, don't expect me to flip-flop easily. The history section links to History of Mohun Bagan A.C., where football, cricket, athletics, tennis and hockey are mentioned. There is also a youth athletics mentioned in this article. Of course this article is well-endowed with football details since football is where this club has really shined over many years. That's no surprise. It's also no reason to think that this club is all about football, because it obviously is not. This is clearly a case of "too soon", so you should withdraw this request and wait a few months, while that time can be spent looking for newer and stronger arguments for what you want to do. You should respect the previous outcome and the closer's decision. That's really all there is to it, imho. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 04:39, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

i can respect that opinion but IMO, this needs to be resolved prior to the start of the 2020–21 Indian Super League season, which starts next month. I just looked through the History page. Cricket is only mentioned three times... once about a footballer who was also a cricket player, as a part of a small tidbit about the 1949 celebrations, and an exhibition cricket match that occurred in the 60s. Hockey is only mentioned once. Tennis is only mentioned once. And athletics only once as well. Have you read the History of Mohun Bagan A.C. page? It is mainly, 100% about football. I'll be honest, one can make an argument that the football team passes WP:FOOTYN and WP:GNG and that the athletic club Mohun Bagan doesn't pass WP:GNG as almost all sources for the club are about the football side only. I am more than happy to have a Mohun Bagan A.C. (disambiguation) for listing the other teams but there probably isn't even a need for an "athletics article". Also, please look at Mohun Bagan A.C. (youth). It is 100% football only, focusing on the club's youth football teams that participated in the Indian football youth leagues. Also, I would like to add that the opening of this article was always "Mohun Bagan Athletic Club is a professional football club based in West Bengal, India." until 8 May 2020, with no edit summary given for the change. So overall, I don't believe this is a case of too soon. I think this is a case where the football team for this club has had a page for years but was only very recently slightly changed to "multi-sport" but without much mention of other sports. It is quite clear that the football team is notable, as it passes the above notability criteria, including WP:GNG, while the sports side overall probably doesn't warrant an article. I am not sure if this is enough to swap you over but I hope it is. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 05:12, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, you have gotten your wish. This has been resolved and before the start of the season, in all eyes but yours. It doesn't matter if a sport is mentioned three times or three hundred times. The fact remains that this article is about an athletic club that encompasses more than one sport. Forgive me but I'm surprised that you've edited Wikipedia for almost ten years, and you still don't see yourself as an expert. You must know by now how Wikipedia works. This reference work, this encyclopedia, works by consensus. In the previous RM there was no consensus, and in most such cases, the article title stays at the status quo name (by previous consensus). Even if I did change my mind and agree with you, we are still just two voices in a rather large editing community of voices. Those voices were unable to come to consensus in the previous discussion. That is what you should respect and accept. All you're doing here and now is kicking a dead horse. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 07:48, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I am sorry but no. I'll be honest, I am doubting that the closing admin even read the discussion properly. The fact that the closing rationale was simply no consensus without actually mentioning anything discussed says that it was probably skimmed. Also, I don't think there should even be "consensus" but rather it should be what is the right argument. Like, this isn't a vote. And sorry if I am not an expert on all these rules but you have not answered anything I mentioned above. You have not account for the fact that this article was labeled for a football club and only about a football club until one tiny edit in May 2020, where the lead was changed slightly and the rest of the article since has been kept the same. You have not responded back to the other Mohun Bagan pages being only about football. You haven't even responded to the idea that the football club is notable but the athletic club as a whole is not. Did you read the previous discussion in full? I really want to know because that discussion was just exhausting. The opposition answers consisted of just emotion responses such as history being destroyed, confusing editors when this wouldn't be confusing, and how this is a society. I mean, can you see why I am still going with this? It is because I have been editing for over ten years now and it surprises me that a no consensus can be given when most users who don't edit primarily this article say "support" or that most "opposes" come from users who are obviously fans and who only edit this page or related pages who are opposing for emotional reasons. That is why I started a new discussion and wanted more participation from outside, no bias users. This should have been simply a formality, not a terrible issue. Every page right now which references the club currently is labeling it as ATK Mohun Bagan FC, whether on the Indian Super League page, the season page, and even on players pages and they will all reference to a page titled wrongly... all because we believe for some reason that this page is for an athletic club, not a football club, which is frankly ridiculous. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 13:20, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

• Comment WP:DROPTHESTICK Spike 'em (talk) 09:30, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
• Nominator comment: I'm closing this discussion. Obviously nothing will change here yet. I am really disappointed by that, not because I believe I am right and I want to be a sore loser, but because in the last discussion nothing was ever responded to properly and what should honestly have been a formality has been made more complicated than it should have been, all because some fans can't stand seeing three letters in the beginning of their favorite team's page. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 13:27, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Questions about the name change

• Comment I know the discussion on this has closed, but I have a question for ArsenalFan700 (talk). If we change the name of the page to ATK Mohun Bagan FC, (which personally being a Mohun Bagan fan I do not object to) what do we do about the information that is present on the Mohun Bagan A.C. page? Do we attribute it to ATK Mohun Bagan FC? That would be factually incorrect, wouldn't it? Secondly, do we call ATK Mohun Bagan FC as 3 times ISL champions? If so, then the club is a continuation of ATK (Football club) and not of Mohun Bagan A.C. Does it not makes more logical sense to create a new page called 'ATK Mohun Bagan FC'? I am not sure why that page even after being created was deleted. Lastly, I am just trying to understand the situation here and not trying to pass a judgement on what is the right way to go about this. Please let me know your thoughts and if necessary we should maybe re-open this discussion again in the future. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 20:40, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi, look at examples like at Arsenal. Arsenal were founded originally as Dial Square, then Royal Arsenal, then Woolwich Arsenal, and finally, just Arsenal. In the history section, you will notice sentences like "Royal Arsenal F.C.'s first home was Plumstead Common..." or "Woolwich Arsenal was the first southern member of The Football League, starting out in the Second Division". The same example can be seen at Sporting Kansas City where the team was known as the Kansas City Wizards prior to 2010. Here, you will see sentences like " 2000, their first full season under Bob Gansler, the Wizards opened the season on a 12-game unbeaten streak". So to answer your question, we wouldn't attribute any prior history to ATK Mohun Bagan in name... it would be "Mohun Bagan won the 1911 IFA Shield". Keep in mind though, I get you are against the name, but please don't take this out on wikipedia. That is on your team for deciding to be bought by RPSG Group and have its name changed. ATK Mohun Bagan is still technically the same team that won the 1911 IFA Shield.

For the ATK history, that is tough to explain. I don't think ATK Mohun Bagan or the ISL have made any comments about this team being reigning champions or anything. So no, for now, I wouldn't attribute any ISL titles to ATK Mohun Bagan. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:17, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Just to add on, we also have an Indian example in Odisha FC, who were the Delhi Dynamos before. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:21, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

"Keep in mind though, I get you are against the name, but please don't take this out on wikipedia" - I do not think you read my post correctly. Request to please read the comment in brackets more carefully. The name whatever it is, is beyond my control. I am concerned about how we can make the name change you propose, smoother. Anyhow, I agree with you on the Arsenal example and it makes sense, however, "ATK Mohun Bagan is still technically the same team that won the 1911 IFA Shield" is a big stretch which is not very convincing. The Odisha FC example you gave does not apply in this case, since that was a name change and this is two football clubs getting merged. I would draw your attention to the AS Roma merger though, and note that the three clubs that merged to form the new club have there on pages on Wikipedia. Not only ATK (football club) but technically Mohun Bagan (football club) also does not exist anymore. In a lack of a clear consensus, I think trying to create a new page for ATK Mohun Bagan FC might just be a better thing to do and maybe change the tense for both ATK (Football club) and Mohun Bagan A.C. to past tense could be a way forward. Let me know what you think. IMO, there is no correct thing here, because every perspective seems to have a logical contradiction. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 22:03, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

First off, I apologize for the last part, didn't read the parentheses properly. But yes, that was the very original discussion... is ATK Mohun Bagan FC a brand new club or are they a continuation of Mohun Bagan (as in, the same team that won the 1911 IFA Shield). Obviously it can't be both and it can't be neither. I am more than okay with going forward with a brand new page for ATK Mohun Bagan FC and technically that is what should have happened. The discussion I started a couple weeks ago in regards to a name change was in respect for the decision of the "merger". Either way, there needs to be a page titled ATK Mohun Bagan FC. The club itself is very confusing. You have Tiri saying that he is happy to return to the club (in this case, ATK) and then you have Brad Inman saying how he is happy to join a club with all the history. If you want, we can discuss probably reopening a discussion on if this is ATK Mohun Bagan FC, the continuation of Mohun Bagan or a new club after the merger of Mohun Bagan and ATK. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 22:17, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I think we should reopen the discussion you propose. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 23:00, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

• Add So, I have thought about this long, and this is where I stand. 1> ATK Mohun Bagan FC is logically a continuation of Mohun Bagan A.C. The only thing that would contradict my logic is ATK Mohun Bagan playing ISL with the same bid as ATK (Football club). However, the bid winner is Kolkata Games and Sports pvt. ltd. They have decided to disband there football team (ATK (Football club) and buy 80% stake in Mohun Bagan F.C. 2> The wikipedia page Mohun Bagan A.C. is about Mohun Bagan F.C. Without the football club, the remainder of the article does not meet notability requirements in my opinion. 3> We should rename the page ATK Mohun Bagan FC and all sections talking about other sports should exist in a separate section (or a page if anyone can show notability requirements being met) called Mohun Bagan A.C. Finally, either way there has to be a page named ATK Mohun Bagan FC on wikipedia where all mentions of the club in ISL should link to. Please let me know what you think. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 23:43, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

There was a separate page called ATK Mohun Bagan FC and it was nominated by ArsenalFan700 for merging into the page Mohun Bagan A.C.. The closure of the discussion was followed by merging of that page into the Mohun Bagan A.C. page as AMBFC is a continuation of the same old club. Aarul Chandekar (talk) 09:50, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

• MB website did say its a new football club. As per ISL & AIFF website, ATKMB is the continuation of ATK. ❯❯❯   S A H A 16:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Where did the ISL and AIFF website say that? --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 20:15, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

ArsenalFan700, because they continued with ATK's profile. Atletico de Kolkata - ATK - ATK Mohun Bagan. Three of them using the same profile and same office address. ❯❯❯   S A H A 08:53, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Eh, it could very well be possible that it is just the way the coding for the switch works. I think they did the same with FC Pune City and Hyderabad and they are not the same club. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 15:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

ArsenalFan700, nope its not. that's why I am emphasizing on this. see 2014 standings from official isl website. we have pune and delhi but not Atletico de Kolkata. It got changed to ATKMB. ❯❯❯   S A H A 16:58, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

That is very interesting actually and I have never seen it like that before. You might be right. Certainly from the articles in the website, it seems like ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a contination of ATK. I am not sure if they have talked about them as being reigning champions though. Since this isn't a discussion officially to move anything or redirect etc. you might want to add this to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football to get other people to dig and add their opinion. After a couple weeks lets start a discussion on which way we think this should go. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:44, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Also, just putting it out there... David Williams has signed an extension with ATK Mohun Bagan FC. Carl McHugh has also signed a one year extension. Tiri is excited to return to the club but he has only played for ATK not Mohun Bagan. The press release in July has Ganguly saying "I salute the coming together of ATK and Mohun Bagan. Together the brand name ATK Mohun Bagan will create history" which makes me feel this is a separate club entirely but will recognize the past achievements of both Mohun Bagan and ATK. What say you? --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:54, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Final post... look at their facebook page... "ATK Mohun Bagan FC is an Indian professional football club based in Kolkata, West Bengal. The club competes in the Indian Super League, the top flight of Indian football. This new merged club was formed as part of a merger between football section of multi-sport club Mohun Bagan AC and former ISL side ATK. This, to me, confirms that this is a brand new club formed as part of a merger between the football section of Mohun Bagan and ATK. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:57, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Please reread what you have posted. Especially the part: a merger between football section of multi-sport club Mohun Bagan AC and former ISL side ATK. Can't you see that the merger was between the football section and ATK? The merger was NOT between the entire and whole Mohun bagan AC athletic club and ATK, just the football section. So the club itself retains its name and its article here on Wikipedia. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 19:26, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

And since this isn't an actual discussion for a move or merge but just a general discussion I don't mind telling you that, with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about and that this page is not about the club as a whole. It is about the football club only. It was always just about the football club and the only part even explaining the "multi-sport" part is the lead sentence which was changed on 8 May 2020 without any reason given. The lead and page was always about football. But if you want to argue that it is a different page then go for it... the club as a whole is probably not even notable anyway, as stated by me and Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk · contribs) whereas the football team does pass both WP:GNG and WP:FOOTYN. Also please re-read my post. I am basically saying that we should have a new page for ATK Mohun Bagan FC after what I saw written by the club itself. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:38, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

If ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a continuation of ATK (Football Club), as stated/implied by User:ArnabSaha then the name of that page should be changed to ATK Mohun Bagan FC. I still do not buy that argument. There is a huge contradiction on the ISL website. FC Pune City was disbanded, and sold its franchise right to a Telengana based businessman. Thus Hyderabad FC, was not under the same ownership as FC Pune City, so in the ISL website there is mention of FC Pune City in the standings till the 2018-19 season. Starting from the 2019-20 season, which is when Hyderabad FC was formed, there is Hyderabad FC in the standings. However, Delhi Dynamos was not disbanded, they relocated to a new home. No franchise rights ever changed hands. Now given the same thing (no franchise rights changing hands) happened with ATK Mohun Bagan FC, there is no reason why 2014 ISL standings should have ATK Mohun Bagan FC in it, while it still has Delhi Dynamos FC (and not Odisha FC) in it. The existence and inheritance of a club cannot be linked to the franchise rights is my point. Franchise (Kolkata Games and Sports Pvt. Ltd. in case of ATK Mohun Bagan FC) can decide to form a new club or invest in another club whenever they want and should still be able to play ISL with their existing bid. Given all of this, I strongly feel how we should interpret this event is that, Kolkata Games and Sports Pvt. Ltd. disbanded their initial club ATK (Football Club) and decided to invest in Mohun Bagan FC, and renamed Mohun Bagan FC as ATK Mohun Bagan FC. This interpretation is further supported by the letter given to the IFA, which stated that ATK (Football Club) was being disbanded and their team was being withdrawn from the Calcutta Football league (2nd division, I think) and Mohun Bagan FC filed to change the name of their team to ATK Mohun Bagan FC. Given all this,I think ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a continuation of Mohun Bagan FC, and this page (Mohun Bagan A.C.) being just about the football section of Mohun Bagan A.C. should be renamed to ATK Mohun Bagan FC (As a Mohun Bagan fan, I am not pleased about letting this happen, but if we want to maintain correctness of the way Wikipedia operates, I am convinced this is the right thing to do) and the ATK (Football Club) page should be changed to past-tense. Please let me know your thoughts. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 21:53, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Ramit.mukherjee.1994, I understand your point, but your statement is mostly WP:OR. FSDL is a highly professional and rich company, so its highly unlikely that there's any kind of contradiction from their side.

1. I couldn't find any WP:RS saying ATK disbanded.
2. I couldn't find any RS on the IFA letter. The image that's revolving was posted by MB fan clubs in social media, which is definitely not an RS.
3. In AIFF's club profile also, Atletico de Kolkata to ATK to ATK Mohun Bagan. As of now, 228 players are registered under ATKMB, whereas MB profile exists but with 0 players. In the case of East Bengal, AIFF is using the same profile whether Quess EB or just East Bengal.
4. Mohun Bagan's website refers to ATKMB as a new club

I would prefer sticking to WP:RS, especially the official sources. As I said before, emotionally its continuation of MB but technically its continuation of ATK. ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:03, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Questions left unanswered

The X vs. Y here seems to be X = how the outside world works and Y = how Wikipedia works. The outside world of football club experts appears to see ATK Mohun Bagan FC as a stand-alone entity deserving of its own article on Wikipedia. That is a valid point; however, it butts heads against Y, at least for now. Y, or how Wikipedia works, is about an athletic club, Mohun Bagan A.C., which is notable expressly because among all its other sports activities, its football section, now known as ATK Mohun Bagan FC, has lifted it high above non-notability. One editor likened that to a popular, notable book with one very notable chapter among several chapters – Wikipedia does not change the name of the book just because it has one very notable chapter. Wikipedia goes with what reliable, independent, secondary, English-language sources say. That is how Wikipedia works. Has this athletic club changed its name? or has it just changed the name of its football section? Was the above merger with the entire athletic club? or was the merger just a combining of ATK (football club) with only the football section of Mohun Bagan A.C.? A merging of the very important football section with an outside football club does not warrant a name change of this article. This is still an athletic club that engages in several sports, so if the athletic club known as Mohun Bagan A.C. has not changed its name to ATK Mohun Bagan FC, then the title of this article should remain as it is. If on the other hand this athletic club has changed its name, and reliable sources now use that name to refer to the athletic club, then there is good reason to change the title of this article. So an important question for the experts out there, Ramit.mukherjee.1994 and ArsenalFan700 among them, would be: when reliable sources write about ATK Mohun Bagan FC, do they refer to the entire athletic club known (or previously known) as Mohun Bagan A.C.? or do they still refer only to a very large and notable "section" of that athletic club? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 03:39, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

According to the club's own description, This new merged club was formed as part of a merger between football section of multi-sport club Mohun Bagan AC and former ISL side ATK. So yes, it is just the football section. RPSG Group, the company that bought into the football side, does not also own the cricket team for example. So it is just the football side that has changed. This page is about the football team and always has been. However, based on the club's own description, ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a brand new team that was formed after the merger of Mohun Bagan and ATK. Therefore, it looks like we should create a new article for ATK Mohun Bagan FC. This actually supports what was said a few months ago when some users brought up Mohun Bagan's own press release. RPSG Group, the owners of ATK bought an 80% stake in Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Private Limited, which is a subsidiary group of Mohun Bagan Athletic Club. According to the club's press release as well, "This move will see the two football clubs coming together into a new merged identity to compete in the rapidly growing professional Indian football landscape." The Indian Super League also mentions a new merged entity. So based on this, I am definitely more in favor now of moving forward with a new page. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 03:58, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that press release is a primary source, so two things: 1) it does not meet Wikipedia's "independent, secondary" source requirement and 2) judging by the comments in the press release, there are a lot of questions the press release left unanswered. So this does not address whether or not the athletic club has changed its name to the name of the football section (apparently not), nor do we see an abundance of reliable, independent, secondary, English language sources that say beyond doubt that the name of the football section is also the name of the athletic club. Without that, I must disagree that this article's title should be changed, and I disagree that the football section should have its own article. The football section of the multi-sport athletic club is abundantly described within this article, so does not require its own page. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 05:16, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

The football team literally, on its own, passes WP:FOOTYN and WP:GNG and will have a standalone article regardless. But anyway, here is an independent source which clarifies the new ownership: "The ATK franchise is jointly owned by industrialists Sanjiv Goenka, Harshavardhan Neotia, Utsav Parekh, former India cricket team captain and current BCCI president Sourav Ganguly and Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Private Ltd.". This independent source confirms the merger between Mohun Bagan and ATK. Also WP:FACEBOOK can be used here in that the ATK Mohun Bagan FC page is authenticated as belonging to the subject and the page literally says itself "This new merged club was formed as part of a merger between football section of multi-sport club Mohun Bagan AC and former ISL side ATK." This should thus be more than enough to tell you that this is a merger not with Mohun Bagan the athletic club but with Mohun Bagan's subsidiary football team AND that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a new club formed as part of a merger. I really don't see what more you need here. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 08:34, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Just to further clarify from this source: RPSG Group bought into Mohun Bagan Football Club, not Mohun Bagan Athletic Club. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 08:42, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Name change and having a new article are different issues. Two things-

1. If the new article isn't made, then it should be renamed, otherwise no.
2. Multisport was added in May, before that it was mentioned football club.

No RS said ATKMB is the continuation or another chapter. Also, how can this be a chapter, when we have two different books? Book 1, Book 2 ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:12, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

To editor S A H A: the "two books" are intriguing. So how does the All India Football Federation screw up like that? Two different names? two different addresses? two different emails? What's up with that? And you still don't provide any reliable sources to support your views that you outline above. What's up with that? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 08:44, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

And btw, it doesn't matter when "multi-sport" was added, because the athletic club was a multi-sport club long before May, wasn't it? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 08:49, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point when people mention the multi-sport part. This isn't hard. Mohun Bagan A.C. is literally an article created for the football team and because the football team passes WP:GNG and WP:FOOTYN, since the club participated in the I-League, India's top national level football competition. At no point was the intention of the article ever really about the athletic club as a whole, just the football club. You can't just now come in here and say "well, actually this page is for the athletic club" because it isn't, it clearly isn't and has never been for the athletic club minus one line added in May. This is now becoming tiresome because we really don't know how else we can put it at this point. Don't make this article be what is isn't. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 08:56, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Paine Ellsworth- sorry, where did I miss adding sources to my statement? ❯❯❯   S A H A 09:30, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

So it seems none of us is going to change the mind of any other, so we will have to agree to disagree. This article is titled with the athletic club's name, and the reality of the club's situation, that it is a multi-sport club, was added in May. It has now agreed to merge its awesome football section with ATK and retains 20% ownership. Since the athletic club is clearly notable mostly because of its football interest, there is no reason to alter this article's title and no reason to have a separate article for the newly formed ATK Mohun Bagan FC, since it is amply described here in the athletic club's article. Until there are reliable, independent, secondary, English-language sources that say differently, the status quo should remain. I see no reason to change it. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 20:08, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, you have no idea what you're talking about. The athletic isn't notable because of its football section, the football section is notable on its own. We literally have rules on wiki for this at WP:FOOTYN. Honestly, this is dumb, you're being a hard ass for no reason. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:10, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

BTW, I love how you basically ignore my rebuttals unless they benefit you. You bring up the History of Mohun Bagan A.C. and Mohun Bagan A.C. (youth) pages and claim that they are about the athletic club. I counter by stating how they are both not about the athletic club as a whole, just the football side. You ignore it. I bring up the facebook page and WP:Facebook and you ignore it. We bring up what this article actually is and you ignore all because you want to believe it is for the athletic club when anyone who reads this article can disagree and know it is about the football club. But whatever, you're just being a dick now and personally again, have no idea what you're talking about. You don't follow Indian football, let alone football at all, so at this point, this is pointless to deal with you. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:15, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

P. Ellsworth, I think you misunderstood the thing. ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:16, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

That's interesting and even understandable, because I have been thinking that you and AF are far too close to this to understand Wikipedia's ways, at least in this case. I may not know football (even though I've been watching it and even playing it since a very young age) and I surely don't know Indian football although I've been reading a lot about it; however, I have edited Wikipedia for a significant amount of time and can tell you only what I've learned in that time. You SAHA are at least being civil about this unlike another editor who shall remain nameless. I like to follow the WP:AGF rule and think that you are holding your opinions in good faith. It's just not how this encyclopedia works, as attested by the RM results. Truly sorry that other Wikipedia editors disagree with you. And BTW, WP:FOOTYN doesn't even begin to address this particular kind of situation. That in itself tells me AF is way too close to this issue to have a straightforward perspective. Perhaps be patient and in time consensus can change. And there had better be lots and lots of reliable, independent, secondary, English-language sources cited to sway today's consensus! If AF wants to throw something my way besides insults, try sources. That is the path to change. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 17:01, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Why was my edit reverted? What kind of a sentence is that: "The football operations of Mohun Bagan are known as ATK Mohun Bagan FC since 2020, after Indian Super League club ATK dissolved in football section of Mohun Bagan."? How can a club be "dissolved in" another club, either it is dissolved or it is merged. And in this instance (according to sources) I believe it has merged. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 09:06, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

To editor Ludost Mlačani: it's true that there was a merger, and the result of that merger was that the ATK club was "dissolved" as a result of that merger. So "dissolved into" is a bit more specific than "merged". Thank you for your editing! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 17:36, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Hmmm, I am afraid that this might be a bit POV. Because you could just as equally say: ...after the football section of Mohun Bagan dissolved in Indian Super League club ATK. And I see no such wording in ATK (football club) article. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

It's the emotions getting better of MB fans. The truth is ATK and Mohun Bagan got merged to form a entirely new club ATK Mohun Bagan. Just like happened with Paris FC & Germainn to form PSG. There should be a seperate page for ATK Mohun Bagan, The officials of the previous clubs has stated that ATK is an entirely new club and has been formed in 2020. ATK Mohun Bagan has replaced ATK's place. And thus you can see all the official ATK pages has now been named ATK Mohun Bagan, so I believe wr got 2 options... 1) Create a new page ATK Mohun Bagan 2) Move the ATK page to ATK Mohun Bagan (same as the official sm pages). Coderdaddy1369 (talk) 12:08, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree. I think that is clear. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 12:09, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Elite League 2019-20 website. It also says ATKMB is the continuation of ATK, ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Undoubtedly some rival fanatics sitting in the federation did this. All AIFF website results and match summaries are now corrected. It will be foolish to say that Mohun Bagan will be replaced in back dates with ATK Mohun Bagan. Eg. Elite League, AIFF isl or AIFF i-league. So, it simply shows someone sitting behind the screen are intentionally doing this on the direction of ISL, because the ISL are yet to do this, did not yet responded to the issues. Here AIFF media Dir. Nilanjan Datta's tweet for more clarification that it was mistake to do that. Drat8sub (talk) 16:04, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

if ISL website doesnt make a new club profile, then its a whole new ball game.  Saha ❯❯❯Stay safe  17:58, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

File:ATK Mohun Bagan FC logo.svg and names of football activities table

The non-free use of File:ATK Mohun Bagan FC logo.svg is currently being discussed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2020 September 30#File:ATK Mohun Bagan FC logo.svg to assess whether it's in compliance with Wikipedia's non-free content use policy. While it might be reasonably argue that the file should be allowed to be used in this article and there are some doing just that at the aforementioned FFD discussion, there's pretty much no way to argue that it can be used more than once per WP:NFCC#3a. A non-free file requires a separate, specific non-free use rationale each time it's used when that means using one time each in different articles or using more than once in the same article. So, adding the file twice to this article without providing a non-free use rationale for that second use is a clear violation of WP:NFCC#10c.

While I don't necessarily agree with the file's use in the image gallery in Mohun Bagan A.C.#Crest, that appears to be the more stable of the two uses (at least until the FFD discussion has finished). The table listing the various names for the football activities has been repeatedly been removed and added by various editors, and each time it's removed the file is removed with it. A non-free file is required to be being used in at least one article per WP:NFCC#7 and those which aren't are eligible for speedy deletion per WP:F5. So, a decision needs to be made (at least for the time being) regarding where to use this logo until the FFD discussion about it's use anywhere in the article has finished. If there's a consensus not to use the table, then the use in the "Crest" section should remain for the time being; on the other hand, if the consensus is to use image in the table, then it should be removed from the "Crest" section.

Without the image that table shouldn't be in the lead, which is where it was recently re-added; so, I've temporarily moved to the body of the article. It can be moved again as needed once everything is sorted out. -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:33, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 18 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to not move

Three different sorts of opinions seem to have spiralled out of this discussion,

1. ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a new club;

2. ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a continuation of Mohun Bagan A.C. football division;

3. ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a continuation of ATK.

Whatever be the opinion of the editors all of them disagree with the request to move. So, as the nominator, I withdraw my nomination. (non-admin closure)

 M Kariyappa (talk) 14:25, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

---

Mohun Bagan A.C. → ATK Mohun Bagan FC – I think that the Mohun Bagan A.C. wikipedia page is mostly based on the football division of the Indian club commonly called Mohun Bagan. Now, the fact that the name of the football division of Mohun Bagan has been changed to ATK Mohun Bagan FC is clear from this report in which an official letter from the Secretary of the IFA (WB) has been cited.

It contains an utmost important note about the official correspondence between the parties and the governing body of football in the state of West Bengal that,

Mohun Bagan A.C. wishes to change its IFA affiliation to ATK Mohun Bagan Pvt. Ltd. and Kolkata Games and Sports Pvt. Ltd. (ATK Club) desires to get disaffiliated from IFA

. This shows that we can safely say that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a rebranded version of Mohun Bagan (Football Division). Not only this but also the Entry Manual for AFC Club Competitions (2021 edition) might be very helpful in deciding it. The Sporting criteria for a club to enter AFC Competitions include as the first point,

9.1. To meet the sporting criteria, a club must have earned one (1) of the following

(which shall be applied in descending order to determine the representative clubs of a Member Association):

9.1.1. winner of the domestic top division league;

9.1.2. winner of the domestic cup;

9.1.3. runner-up of the domestic top division league;

9.1.4. third place of the domestic top division league;

9.1.5. fourth place of the domestic top division league (only if there is no domestic cup applicable for Article 9.1.2).

So, if ATK Mohun Bagan was any new club it could not qualify for the AFC Cup 2021. However, ATK Mohun Bagan FC has been confirmed about a group stage direct entry at AFC Cup 2021, the slot that is meant for the I-League champions of India. Mohun Bagan under the ownership of Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Pvt. Ltd. own the I-League 2019-2020. This proves that Mohun Bagan have earned their place by virtue of winning the I-League and have retained it because ATK Mohun Bagan FC is simply a rechristened form of Mohun Bagan. Both the points mentioned above had been there earlier also but the previous move requests could not succeed in gaining consensus. I am making this move request (little quickly than is usual after unsuccessful RM) on the basis of some later sources to back up the genuineness.

The statementfrom Nita Ambani, Founder & Chairperson, Football Sports Development Limited (FSDL), while welcoming East Bengal brand into the ISL included,

The inclusion of both legacy clubs, i.e. East Bengal and Mohun Bagan (now ATK Mohun Bagan) opens limitless possibilities for Indian football

(then, i.e., 27 September 2020, the name of East Bengal football division was undecided). This statement also showed the name change explicitly. The message of congratulations on the day of Mohun Bagan being presented with the I-League trophy (18 October 2020 IST) from the Chief Minister of West Bengal Mamata Banerjee read

Heartiest congratulations to @Mohun_Bagan for becoming @ILeagueOfficial Champions.

Wonderful achievement for the Green & Maroon Brigade & best wishes as you step into upcoming @IndSuperLeague season as @atkmohunbaganfc.

(hashtag)Champions5

Note the words as you step into upcoming @IndSuperLeague season as @atkmohunbaganfc showing the continuity of Mohun Bagan in the form of ATK Mohun Bagan FC.

Another message for congratulations coming from Minister of State (Government of India) Kiren Rijiju read

This is that famous festive football frenzy of Kolkata I like the most about!

Heartiest congratulations to —@Mohun_Bagan for becoming @ILeagueOfficial Champions.

My best wishes for the upcoming @IndSuperLeague season as @atkmohunbaganfc

Another seal on the very fact that ATK Mohun Bagan is undoubtedly another rechristened version of the football division of Mohun Bagan A.C.

I request for the obvious move to be done with no separate page leftover in the name of Mohun Bagan. The main couple of divisions of Mohun Bagan A.C. will then have separate pages devoted to both of them (Football division at ATK Mohun Bagan FC and Cricket division at Mohun Bagan A.C. (Cricket)). I request every user participating in the debate to help keep the discussion organised. Also East Bengal fans are requested to keep things civil. Ardent fans make Indian football beautiful but please do not restart efforts to show ATK Mohun Bagan as a separate so called 'new club' (which it is absolutely not) if this move request reaches consensus in its favour. Do not try to malign an established institution. Thanks. M Kariyappa (talk) 15:58, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: On the basis that I do believe that this is a new club. This is based on what ATK Mohun Bagan FC have said themselves in their facebook description page: This new merged club was formed as part of a merger between football section of multi-sport club Mohun Bagan AC and former ISL side ATK. Also, if you look at club's social media pages when announcing new signings, players who were part of ATK and not Mohun Bagan last season are being announced as returning to the club. See Arindam Bhattacharya (source), Javi Hernández (source), Tiri (source) who have all signed "extensions" with the club despite never playing for Mohun Bagan but only ATK. Also, please see reliable sources on this such as from scroll.in, goal.com, ESPN India, and Outlook India which all said that a new club will be formed in June 2020. Additionally, please see this article from Business Standard which clarifies that According to the agreement, Kolkata Games and Sports (KGS), an RPSG venture, which owns the ATK brand, will be merged with Mohun Bagan Football Club Pvt Ltd to form a new company. This new entity will come into effect by June 1 this year. and further The new brand identity ATK Mohun Bagan will compete in the Hero Indian Super League season 2020-21, along with other important competitions of the All India Football Federation calendar.

Also see this from the RPSG Group website which says The clubs were merged and will play as one ISL 2020-21 onwards. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Response by nominator With all due respect to the sources you cited as the news items, I would like to remind you that they are all from January 2020. They were there earlier as well but it was you who stated in the previous RM, After looking at official sources such as the letter cited here, I think we are fine to move forward with ATK Mohun Bagan FC being a continuation of Mohun Bagan. So with that said, I think we now need to move and rename this page ATK Mohun Bagan FC. This page is clearly and obviously for the football team, which has now been renamed ATK Mohun Bagan FC. So how can you think now that those same sources point towards different thing? Okay, now, keeping that aside, I have picked up the statement from Nita Ambani in which she said,

The inclusion of both legacy clubs, i.e. East Bengal and Mohun Bagan (now ATK Mohun Bagan) opens limitless possibilities for Indian football.

This is from 27th of September 2020 which is more recent from an official source. In the business agreement news cited by you, it is correctly stated that the joint venture is indeed a new company and a new entity. In fact, it was a business takeover, literally, as one side (RPSG Co.) had 227 crores INR as paid-up capital and MBFC(India) Pvt. Ltd. had only 1 lakh INR as paid-up capital at the new company. The thing is, if we go on making wikipedia pages on each occasions whenever a new company takes over a club and rebrands it as suitable for satisfying investors' purpose the situation will become ridiculous. In the RPSG website, you could see a scrolling information tab where success of their sporting entities have been described. The 3 times ISL win by ATK FC, IPL runners-up position by Rising Pune Supergiants and the 1911 IFA Shield win by Mohun Bagan. The first two are definitely the achievements of teams in which they invested but if ATK Mohun Bagan is a new club then there is no question of the 1911 IFA Shield win being mentioned there. Since, now they own the majority and controlling stakes at Mohun Bagan football division they are seeing themselves (rightly) the owners of Mohun Bagan football activity. So Mohun Bagan's past achievements have become worth mentioning. Coming to the 'retention' or 'extension' words being used by ATK Mohun Bagan FC authorities while signing contracts with players who have played at ATK FC last season. This is totally correct because ATK Mohun Bagan will play in the ISL using the successful bid submitted by Kolkata Games and Sports pvt. ltd. which owned ATK FC. The rights (of KGSPL) to field ISL Team has been transferred to ATK Mohun Bagan Pvt. Ltd. while footballing rights of Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Pvt. Ltd. has been transferred to ATK Mohun Bagan Pvt. Ltd. (Basically, if the exit clause in their agreement is triggered, there will be no Mohun Bagan in the ISL with the same bid and RPSG will not be able to use Sailing boat in logo, green and maroon in jersey for their team) So, players who have had any agreement with the holding company of ATK FC will have to sign 'extension' because ATK Mohun Bagan falls into their auspices. M Kariyappa (talk) 11:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

So I changed my view after looking for carefully at everything, is that okay? First, take away that it is TheFanGarage which isn't even a reliable source, all the letter is saying is to change the affiliation of Mohun Bagan. It isn't specifically saying that they are a contination but more that this is just general paperwork done when registering the club. There is no need for two separate accounts, so they disbanded one of them and renamed the other. Doesn't change that the club itself is saying that this is a new club. Also, Nita Ambani's quote doesn't show anything about continuation. Mohun Bagan Athletic Club are still co-owners of this team, she is happy to have them be part of the league. That isn't really clarifying anything and if anything is just dubious as it just adds confusion against past ISL articles and could honestly just be basic PR.

Regarding your question about creating an article for every company. No, no one has ever suggested that. We are suggesting to create a new article because this is a new club. East Bengal have a new company but no one is asking for a new article. East Bengal made is clear as day that they rebranded, ATK Mohun Bagan FC have literally spelt it out that this is a new club formed as part of a merger between the football-department of Mohun Bagan and the former ISL club ATK. For the RPSG Group tab, that isn't mentioning ATK Mohun Bagan, just Bagan and isn't a "gotcha, this shows they are the same." ATK Mohun Bagan recognizes the history of Mohun Bagan but nothing in the last three months since launching has shown that they consider themselves the same team that won the 1911 IFA Shield, that they are 5 times I-League/NFL winners, and they have this history. I am not sure what you mean in your last part and consider it reaching since you're a Bagan fan who probably doesn't want a new page for sentimental reasons. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 14:43, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: Technically no. It's either retention of ATK or a new club. Tweets from political figures hardly matter here, as they do this for votes. Talking about TheFanGarage, the portal is run by ATKMB supporters (ChiranjitOjha, the main editor). AIFF website has 3 club profiles for ATK, MB and ATKMB (MB AIFF profile). ISL website denote ATKMB as the continuation of ATK (A small note here. I don't find any coding etc. issue here. They have made a new profile for EB, but not for ATKMB, whereas club profiles of other disbanded ISL don't exist anymore). ATKMB calling the contract extensions as "extension", whereas for MB players (SK Sahil) its "signing". MB player like Fran Gonzalez having 2 year contract, isn't even contacted by the club (goal.com). Neither he is released. The rest is provided by AF700. Then how is this a continuation of MB?  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  19:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Response by nominator Thanks Arnab for providing that info about TFG, I didn't know that. Ok, right but that does not invalidate the letter cited over there. In India, football clubs need to register at state levels only. The AIFF provides them 'license' to play at national and international level as per AFC norms but the primary registration is the basic identity of a club to play football in India. That letter proves that Mohun Bagan A.C. was renamed while ATK was disbanded. Coming to the 'politician' related remarks, I am not saying that they need to be official but the people in so high level of power cannot be (at least as per expectation) so irresponsible and callous to write something in their verified twitter profile without base. I think, these new and very recent tweets are supportive of the fact that renaming of Mohun Bagan has occurred certainly. M Kariyappa (talk) 11:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Comment: I think it is safe to say that this club is trying to act as a continuation of both ATK and Mohun Bagan, thus why they keep the stats that ATK obtained. As the club's own description says This is a new merged club formed as part of the merger between the football section of Mohun Bagan and former ISL side ATK. So ATK itself no longer exists for sure. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:45, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Ya, I also agree, its best to go for a 'new club'. Neither MBFC nor ATKFC exists.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  01:53, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Comment You are correct in saying that there is currently no football team in India named as MBFC or ATKFC, the fact however is that ATK Mohun Bagan is a new entity that represents the same old club Mohun Bagan. In this statement, the directors of ATK Mohun Bagan Private Limited Mr. Srinjoy Bose and Mr. Debashis Dutta are quoted saying,

We are indeed delighted that the Board of ATK Mohun Bagan has agreed to keep the colour green and maroon and the 'Pal Tola Nauka' image as the house colour and the mnemonic of the new avatar of Mohun Bagan.

Again, it shows that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a new avatar or a rechristened version of Mohun Bagan. M Kariyappa (talk) 11:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

• the colours and logo are retained from MB, and all other technical stuff retained from ATK. So, how this justifies the continuation of MB alone?
• Each and every primary/official source saying newly merged club. ISL is denoting ATKMB as ATK.
• "Avatar" and all these are emotional words. I didn't see anyone from ATK's directors say the same.
• Whatever politicians write, it's their personal opinion. We should stick to RS instead of personal opinions.
• "In India, football clubs need to register at state levels only" source of this? And the letter was released by some ATKMB fan pages and not by IFA.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  16:56, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: The reason is simple ATK Mohun Bagan is entirely a new club formed in 2020 due to merging of existing Football clubs namely ATK & Mohun Bagan. Kindly go through all the official statements & websites, the officials have reiterated that ATK Mohun Bagan is an entirely new club. Moreover https://www.indiansuperleague.com/standings

Here you can see ATK which participated in the previous seasons has been rebranded as ATKMB. All the media handles of ATK has been also rebranded as ATK Mohun Bagan. So it's the other way round. So the discussion should've been 1)Move the ATK page to ATK Mohun Bagan, which will have 2 founding dates OR 2) Create a entirely new page for ATK Mohun Bagan. MindSlayer13 (talk) 23:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Again, I would just like to show that the club itself is saying that ATK is formerly disbanded and was merged to form a new club. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 23:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment ATK Mohun Bagan is wearing the jersey with 'Champions of ISL 2019-20' embroidered on it MindSlayer13 (talk) 07:14, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 07:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

ArsenalFan700, ATKMBFC twitter Zoom and see under the ISL logo.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  08:32, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment ATK mohunbagan is just a rebranding of atk. They changed the logo and name just to respect legacy of mohunbagan. Abhishe78 (talk) 09:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment to the closing editor There has been no sourced counter-argument against the official letter from IFA Secretary showing that the name of Mohun Bagan was changed to ATK Mohun Bagan and no explanation from oppose camp on how they think ATK Mohun Bagan to be a new club yet they qualified to the AFC Cup 2021 through the slot earned by Mohun Bagan as I-League champions while the sporting criteria forbids any new club to participate in any AFC Club competitions directly in its first year. M Kariyappa (talk) 11:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

The first part is countered above. That letter doesn't show specifically that this is a continuation but is more just saying to just rename one license and remove the other since they are now one club. Also I don't see how it is hard to believe that ATK Mohun Bagan FC can take the spot since both ATK and Mohun Bagan as separate clubs qualified for Asia last season. The AFC has shown leniency before with their rules. Hell, the AFC already gives India exceptions so it isn't hard to see it here. Look, the team itself considers itself a new club formed as part of a merger. I don't see why this is hard to understand. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 14:43, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

playing in others AFC slot isn't a big deal. Even BFC will be playing in ATKFC's slot. Also, all I-League clubs (except CCFC) failed AFC/AIFF club licensing ([4]).  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  16:07, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Since ATK Mohun Bagan is a newly merged club, while ATK finished as Champions of ISL, MB finished as I-League Champions, they could have availed any of the spot, since MB had a group stage entry, they availed the group spot obviously with certain official paperwork & understanding with the AFC, FSDL & AIFF. MindSlayer13 (talk) 13:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Would you mind if I ask for a source to back up the claim that there was behind-the-scene play going on (referring to the word 'understanding') to make exception to ensure direct entry into the 2021 AFC Cup for ATK Mohun Bagan? I'm afraid there's no such source available on Google because what you claim about the matter is not true. No club can gain entry into AFC club competitions in its very first year of existence. ATK Mohun Bagan has been granted the rights which shows it to be a continuation of Mohun Bagan. ATK Mohun Bagan FC represents the same Mohun Bagan A.C. as did all the previous professional avatars of the team, Mcdowell Mohun Bagan FC (1998-2015) Mohun Bagan FC (2015-2017) Mohun Bagan FC (India) (2017-2020). M Kariyappa (talk) 13:52, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Hello fellow wiki users please read this once and decide for your own! MindSlayer13 (talk) 07:45, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment:Aren't you people stretching it too much? Why don't you guys instead of intentionally overlooking the simple & solid questions, start answering them? MindSlayer13 (talk) 17:41, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Note This user has reiterated same comments placed below this 3 times. Those have been dealt with appropriately and related comments placed at proper position. This user is involved in WP:IMRIGHT and WP:SHOUT.

• Comment If it's the continuation of Mohun Bagan why is the office address of ATK & ATK Mohun Bagan the same? (Topsia) while Mohun Bagan club office in Maidan? Any answers?

Why all the official websites have changed from ATK to ATK Mohun Bagan while Mohun Bagan remained the same? Answers?

Why all the previous season's ATK players are extending contracts while all others player are not? Why is the official websites claiming Atk Mohunbagan to be the defending champions of ISL?

Why does ATK Mohun Bagan jersey have 3stars and Champions of ISL 2019-20 embroidered on it? It is too hard to accept? MindSlayer13 (talk) 14:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh forgot one thing! If ATK Mohun Bagan is the continuation of Mohun Bagan & not the other way round why haven't the picked up the bid papers which is a necessary for a new team in the Isl? Just like East Bengal officially submitted the bid documents! Answers? I'm gonna tell you the reason because ATK is rebranded as ATK Mohun Bagan and for the same reason no need of bidding as they were already in the ISL! Peace out. MindSlayer13 (talk) 14:28, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment This is Chiranjit Ojha, somebody who has been personally named in this thread by  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe . This discussion has been brought to my attention as a result of that and I want to clarify that I am not the "main editor" of The Fan Garage. Nor is The Fan Garage a portal run by fans of any club. I am employed as a sports writer and I cover multiple sports. I have been a Mohun Bagan supporter and I don't hide that, but that does not mean my reporting or TFG is a biased source. Most journalists active in Indian football have a club they support, that doesn't make them lacking in credibility. I don't care whether someone considers the site a "reliable source" or not but I challenge the person who named me to disprove the article in question. The letter from IFA discussed in the story is authentic and it categorically states that ATK is "disaffiliated" (In layman's terms, discontinued) while Mohun Bagan will continue with the brand name ATK Mohun Bagan Pvt Ltd. This leaves no doubt that the ATK Mohun Bagan is simply the brand name of the football division of Mohun Bagan AC, the multi-sport club which this Wikipedia article is about. A similar re-branding was done by East Bengal too. From what I understand by reading this page, some people have been repeatedly trying to alter the name of the Wikipedia article for reasons I cannot fathom but I request not to be personally dragged into this matter. ChiranjitOjhaAccount (talk) 04:12, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• Note: Single Purpose Accounts/Canvass.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  06:25, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

So I am looking at the two sources you provided below. Both are the same article by the way, like literally word for word. The article is making an assumption that just because Mohun Bagan requested the IFA to register under a new name that it must be the same club. That isn't necessarily true. Mohun Bagan the athletic club still own a 20% stake in ATK Mohun Bagan FC so I'm not surprised that they kept it simple, re-registered under a new name and discontinued ATK. That doesn't change that the club itself has said that they are a new club formed as part of a merger between the football-department of Mohun Bagan and the former ISL club ATK (Note: No one has yet to challenge that.) and the fact that ATK Mohun Bagan FC seems to recognize both ATK and Mohun Bagan's past and signs players to extensions that have never played for Mohun Bagan in the past. In my opinion, the IFA registration is a Red herring. It doesn't actually confirm if this is a new club or not, all it confirms is that a member of the ownership group re-registered with the IFA under a new name. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:24, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I made this account to respond to a user personally naming me. I don't wish to participate in this discussion one way or another but  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  has no right to spread misinformation about me or The Fan Garage. If they think they are justified, let them disprove the article in question. ChiranjitOjhaAccount (talk) 06:34, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

ChiranjitOjhaAccount, when did I spread misinfo on u?  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  06:37, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

ChiranjitOjhaAccount But you said that this was brought to your attention and I doubt you just happened to come across this conversation by clicking the talk page. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:24, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

ArsenalFan700 Somebody shared a screenshot with me asking if what was being said was true. So I came here and addressed it. ChiranjitOjhaAccount (talk) 17:20, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Earlier in this thread you have mentioned TFG as a 'portal run by ATKMB fans' and called me its 'main editor.' I am not its main editor, I am one of the sports writers employed at the website. None of the website's owners or chief editors are Mohun Bagan fans. Also, you tried to dismiss the article citing IFA's letter stating ATK will be disaffiliated just because I am an employee of the website. So let me ask you,  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe , what's wrong with the article? Are you alleging that the letter it cites for its information is not an authentic document from IFA? ChiranjitOjhaAccount (talk) 06:45, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

ChiranjitOjhaAccount, "dismiss the article citing IFA's letter stating ATK will be disaffiliated just because I am an employee of the website." - when did I say this? Since you are new here, kindly read reliable source. You are unnecessarily making it personal.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  06:53, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

If I have said something wrong, you came here and corrected it. Done. But why getting personal? If you misinterpret something, I can't help.

Here, in Wikipedia, you are an editor like others and not an employee. And you have to follow WP:NPOV.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  07:09, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

 Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  You said and I quote "Talking about TheFanGarage, the portal is run by ATKMB supporters (ChiranjitOjha, the main editor)"... this is the reason I got involved, because that's an untrue statement regarding me and my employers. As far as the reliability of the article is concerned, the letter quoted in the article was discussed in other publications too , including Hindustan Times . So the report's veracity is not in question. ChiranjitOjhaAccount (talk) 07:09, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Things look like becoming serious here. I am trying to invite neutral users for wider participation. M Kariyappa (talk) 06:48, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. M Kariyappa (talk) 06:48, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment ChiranjitOjhaAccount (talk · contribs), Thanking you sincerely for providing two Reliable Sources which shows that Mohun Bagan AC changed the name in their IFA registration to ATK Mohun Bagan. So many direct evidences cannot be overlooked by anyone who is neutral. I would request you to stay at wikipedia and make useful edits at the mainspace/ articles also. Since you are MB fan and also quite knowledgeable person (as it seems from your earlier tweets) (I am assuming you are the real Chiranjit Ojha) you are expected to have better knowledge about your favourite club than outsiders like me. I have noticed that in the last few months an awful lot of EB fans have edited the Mohun Bagan A.C. page on wikipedia mostly making bad faith edits (to malign Mohun Bagan). So people like you are required to contribute to wikipedia regularly to keep the Mohun Bagan related information factually right. M Kariyappa (talk) 10:38, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, M Kariyappa. While the official document from IFA is availble in media which leaves no doubt that this team is the continuation of Mohun Bagan and not ATK, and that it's not some newly formed club (If that was the case it would not have been allowed to play in AFC Cup as that would be against the Sporting Criteria) all I see here is citation of outdated information (From before the details of the MBFCPL-KGSPL deal became public) and PR spin (FSDL in its public-facing platforms treats this team as the franchise they awarded to KGSPL, which is very different from club licensing & registration which are handled by IFA, AIFF & AFC, thereby creating confusion among fans) to prop up misinformation. That's why this team is playing in all merit-based tournaments (CFL, AFC Cup) on Mohun Bagan's slot. ISL slots are given to holding companies and they can be sold/given/transferred (FC Pune City sold theirs to Hyderabad FC) hence KGSPL's slot, which was used by ATK FC in the past, is now being used by Mohun Bagan (Who are using the brand name ATK Mohun Bagan FC). But I think, since I openly support Mohun Bagan, I should stay out of this discussion due to the perceived bias others might claim. Although after reading through this discussion I doubt most of the participants so far are unbiased. Either way, even if the Wikipedia article ends up being wrong (As is often the case when it comes to Indian football, whether due to lack of information or the bias of editors) it won't change the facts. ChiranjitOjhaAccount (talk) 13:03, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment The current page is well structured encompassing the entity which is MBAC. I have earlier also mentioned it should stay as it is and the football section which is currently reflecting under the name ATK Mohun Bagan FC should continue like that. The football section has been beautifully structured to show the changes with time and it gives a proper view and knowledge to the page visitors.

This same discussion was initiated earlier and was rightly closed. It should be closed again. Let's keep this as a page for Mohun Bagan Athletic Club (MBAC) as it has been always. Ztruc (talk) 15:01, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I want to share something guys.The website of RPSG group which is owned by Mr Sanjiv Goenka of ATK Mohun bagan has some information about the club. Here is the link https://www.rpsg.in/business/rpsgsports It reads the statement Both the clubs were merged and will play as one ISL 2020-21 onwards. Clearly it says both the club merged Then how it can be continuation of Mohun bagan. Abhishe78 (talk) 16:26, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: To strengthen the argument that this is a brand new club and not a continuation, here is an interview done by one of the co-owners of ATK Mohun Bagan FC, Utsav Parekh. Here is a link to the interview. If you go to 26:42, a fan asks Parekh the foundation date, whether it is 1889 or 2020. Parekh said in response The club has been created today then how can we write founded 1889 in the logo, it is legally not correct. Here is another interview with Debashis Dutta, a director of ATK Mohun Bagan (link). He is also asked about the foundation date and why 1889 is not in the new logo at 23:18. His response is ATK Mohun Bagan is a avatar of Mohun Bagan but the foundation year of ATKMB is not same as Mohun Bagan.1889 is the foundation year of Mohun Bagan not of ATK Mohun Bagan.How can we legally write 1889 in the logo? Mohun Bagan was founded in 1889 but ATK Mohun Bagan has been created in 2020.

So with all this, how can we say that this is a continuation? It is quite clear from reliable sources, from the club itself, and its own co-owner and directors, that this is a brand new club. It shouldn't even be a question anymore that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a brand new club. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:36, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Response by nominator Yes, the point is correct that ATK Mohun Bagan FC has been established in July 2020. Just like your SC East Bengal has been established in September 2020. That hasn't hindered in moving the page named East Bengal FC to the page SC East Bengal and quite rightly so, since SC East Bengal represents the same old club commonly called East Bengal. Similarly, ATK Mohun Bagan FC represents the same old club commonly called Mohun Bagan. If your argument is taken into consideration then East Bengal FC and SC East Bengal should have been having separate pages. (I'm pretty sure that EB fans flooding comments over here wouldn't have liked that.) What I am seeing here is that personal bias is taking over what should be very mundane affair. Team name has changed so name of wikipedia page should be changed. This page is not saying anything substantial about any activity of Mohun Bagan other than its football division practically. M Kariyappa (talk) 05:55, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

No, you are getting it wrong here regarding both East Bengal and Mohun Bagan. They're both completely different situations. For East Bengal, it was announced in early September 2020 that Shree Cement had acquired a 76% stake in East Bengal Football Club. There was no merging of football clubs, but simply a company buying the majority stake in a club, similar to if a company wanted to buy a majority stake in say, Arsenal. By October 2020 they made it quite clear that this was the same club but under new ownership. That is why we are not going to create a new page for SC East Bengal, because this is the same exact club that has been now put into the Indian Super League.

Mohun Bagan, however, is different. RPSG Group bought a 80% stake into Mohun Bagan Football Club (India), the operating company which ran the football-department of Mohun Bagan Athletic Club, and made it clear that they would be merging ATK, the ISL club, and Mohun Bagan together to form one singular club. They even said that this new club will come into existence on 1 June 2020 (source). Business Standard clarifies by stating that Kolkata Games and Sports, the company which owned ATK, would be merging with Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) to form a new company and new club. It is now October 2020, we have the club themselves saying that this is a new merged club was formed as part of a merger between football section of multi-sport club Mohun Bagan AC and former ISL side ATK. We have the co-owner and directors from the club confirming that this is a new club as well. We have proof that they are treating re-signings of ATK players as extensions and a recognition of ATK's past, as well as Mohun Bagan. This is a new club. This is not like East Bengal at all. There really is nothing more to it than that. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 06:17, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

It has also come under my notice that the user named Kariappa has just joined wiki 3 months ago & doesn't have any edit contribution other than Mohun Bagan, so I think his comments hardly matter. MindSlayer13 (talk) 17:45, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• Response by nominator When people go out of points to counter any valid argument they start looking at other things. If my edits are not noteworthy then you mustn't have joined a discussion initiated by me. So please stop Personal attack and base your comments on the points mentioned in my nomination. For other issues or further discussion you can come to my talk page. I shall be happy to have talks with you. Let me tell you, I am simply fascinated by the amount of fanaticism noticed among the football lovers of West Bengal. So I shall be happy to have chats with some really dedicated fans. M Kariyappa (talk) 05:55, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - as ArsenalFan says, there is a new club which needs a new article. GiantSnowman 18:02, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support the fact that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a continuation of Mohun Bagan AC football activities as said by M Kariyappa, ChiranjitOjhaAccount and Ztruc but
• Oppose the move request as per Ztruc, to give readers the complete view of the matter. No need to move the page but ATK Mohun Bagan FC, no doubt, is being operated as continuation of Mohun Bagan football activity. ATK Mohun Bagan is the current football division of Mohun Bagan A.C. as a club acting as the original organization which has vested the complete management of its football activities upon ATK Mohun Bagan Pvt. Ltd. That's how professional football works. Aarul Chandekar (talk) 06:41, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

There is a difference between MBAC and the football entity which was MBFC earlier and now it's ATK Mohun Bagan FC. It's not a new football club. If that is the case words like legacy and history joining ISL won't matter. Additionally AFC doesn't allow new clubs to participate. AFC congratulatory message to AIFF welcoming 3 clubs to AFC competition was a clear indication.

Aside it has pointed out on many occasions the submission to IFA which is the governing body for football with affiliation to AIFF leading the chain up to FIFA. That letter is a clear evidence that ATK was disaffiliated and MBAC affiliation was changed. If it's a new club both the affiliation will be cancelled and a completely new affiliation would have come up. We should give the highest importance to what a legally governing body of the sport is mentioning over anything else. Ztruc (talk) 06:46, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

So many accounts created just 3 months ago for the sole purpose of disruption, I'm already out unless any unbiased editor steps in. MindSlayer13 (talk) 07:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment So an user whose profile claims to be an East Bengal fan is talking about unbiased editors. Someone whose major contributions are in SC East Bengal page, is talking about the age of other's wiki account. Yeah, please stay away from this and focus on your team's page. Nobody asked you to put your nose here and it would be better if you and your fellow fans stop the nursery-level vandalisms. IAmPushpak (talk) 01:58, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Again, Why didn't Mohun Bagan need to submit any official bids to FSDL which is a necessity to participate in the League? Because Mohun Bagan had already merged with an existing team playing in the league, so the point that ATKMB is a continuation of MB is superficial, moreover it's the other way round. MindSlayer13 (talk) 07:15, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Read this latest article thoroughly and then think to move anything or not (http://news18.com/news/sports/indian-super-league-2020-21-to-kick-off-from-november-20-in-goa-2990645.html).chinakpradhan (talk) 04:20, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Exactly. That article says Mohun Bagan merged with ATK to become ATK Mohun Bagan FC. Therefore, we should have a new article as this, along with the interviews above from the actual co-owner and director, show that this is a new team. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 05:55, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Atleast I'm not unbiased brother, And using wiki way before, didn't just log into it to save the club's identity MindSlayer13 (talk) 00:30, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

 Comment: I have read all the discussion over here and saw that their are many point raise by different editor and many questions are also asked but discussion content miss many of them. Here I'm trying to narrow down all these.

• 1. Here in the discussion, one of the fact rightly point out that one of the co-owners of ATK Mohun Bagan FC, Utsav Parekh, said in response The club has been created today then how can we write founded 1889 in the logo, it is legally not correct.

And also Debashis Dutta, a director of ATK Mohun Bagan, said ATK Mohun Bagan is a avatar of Mohun Bagan but the foundation year of ATKMB is not same as Mohun Bagan. 1889 is the foundation year of Mohun Bagan not of ATK Mohun Bagan. How can we legally write 1889 in the logo? Mohun Bagan was founded in 1889 but ATK Mohun Bagan was created in 2020.

So it is a direct evidence towards a brand new club.

• 2. Official address of ATK Mohun bagan is Topsia (Source) and Mohun Bagan AC is Maidan(Source). If it is a continuation of Mohun Bagan it should be Maidan. Incidentally the official address of ATK was at Topsia (Source), same as ATK Mohun Bagan. Though it is not clearly mentioned why it is so, but thought directed to the fact about 80% stake of ATK, (i.e. RPSG group) and 20% Stake of Mohun Bagan.

• 3. Sobuj Merun and Pal Tola Nouka is a legacy of Mohun Bagan. Newly formed team retain this history in their slogan and logo to respect their (Mohun Bagan's) history and legacy, not for the continuation of Mohun Bagan.(Source:)

  We respect legacy and have retained the same jersey which generations down the line have embraced, adored and loved. - Dr. Sanjiv Goenka, Principal owner of ATK Mohun Bagan

So there is no reason to take heed of it as the continuation of Mohun Bagan.

• 4. In the AFC cup, there are three slots. e.g.
  
  • Slot 1: ISL 2019-20 league phase winners to get AFC Champions League (ACL) group stage slot
    
  • Slot 2: I-League 2019-20 champions get a direct slot in the AFC Cup group stage
    
  • Slot 3: ISL 2019-20 play-off winners get a slot in the AFC Cup play-offs
    

Among them FC Goa have already sealed their berth in the AFC Champions League group stage by virtue of winning the ISL 2019-20 league stage. And AKT was the champion of ISL. On the other hand Mohun Bagan sealed their AFC cup group Stage Slot by bagging I League 2019-20. As Mohun Bagan and ATK marged, the newly merged team had a choice to decide in which slot they wanted to take. (Source) AKT Mohun Bagan chose to play the AFC Cup in AFC Cup group stage.(Source) So, it shows neither the continuation of ATK nor Mohun Bagan. They are playing AFC because of the previous record of the merger teams and no previous records of the merger teams will be attached to the newly merged team. (Source)

• 5. Again in the Bid Paper issue, ATK Mohun Bagan didn't required to pick the Bid Paper as the newly merged team has 80% stake of RPSG group, ATK. Our innate intuition peddle to think that it is a continuation of ATK. But with the previous matter (AFC Cup Slot) it suppose to be assumed that as ATK playing since ISL-2014, and the newly merged team having 80% stake of ATK. So they didn't require the Bid Paper. বাক্যবাগীশ (talk) 07:10, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

 Disagree Reading all these facts and sources available on internet and discussed in my previous comment, I, agreed with @ArsenalFan700, MindSlayer13, ArnabSaha, and GiantSnowman:, also think ATK Mohun Bagan must have a seperate Article/Page as a new club founded on before said date opposing the nomination. বাক্যবাগীশ (talk) 07:12, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 Comment: In my opinion, there should be 3 Wikipedia articles :-
One for ATK Football club - An ISL club which existed from 2014 to 2020. All the history and honours of ATK should be in that article.
One for Mohun Bagan AC - Former Indian club which existed from 1889 to 2020. All the history and honours of Mohun Bagan should be in that article. Mohun Bagan logo should be used.
One for ATK Mohun Bagan - The new ISL club formed in 2020, by merger of ATK and Mohun Bagan, forming a new club. New ATK Mohun Bagan logo should be used.
Anish Viswa 10:18, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I think the discussion going on in this section has shown evidently that irrespective of what the editors think ATK Mohun Bagan FC is there is a clear consensus against my nomination. I have noticed from the list of contributions of the editors who participated in this debate that an overwhelming majority of them can be associated with being either East Bengal fan or Mohun Bagan fan although the number of East Bengal fans in this discussion has been more compared to the Mohun Bagan fans, probably because the Mohun Bagan fans would support the rightful fact presented by me that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a continuation of the football division of Mohun Bagan A.C. but they are perhaps opposed to the change of article title as well. Since they support the fact about Mohun Bagan's continuity but oppose the particular move request they have not taken part in this discussion in large number. The 3 types of opinions on ATK Mohun Bagan FC, it being a new club or a continuation of Mohun Bagan A.C. football division or a continuation of ATK, seem to converge on one point that all of them don't want the page to be renamed. There is no way that this convergence is going to change and if the continuity issue is taken up in a separate discussion, I believe, there will never be any consensus regarding that, since most of such discussions in earlier instances as well have taken place in a way that editors stay divided on the basis of the allegiance to the club (Mohun Bagan or East Bengal) they support (albeit I think any neutral editor would agree that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is the new name of Mohun Bagan A.C. football division). This doesn't look like having any possibility of getting resolved in near future. Possibly it would take the football season to draw towards the end and then only we can have a clear call. Whatsoever, the request to move has been rejected overwhelmingly by the community. I withdraw my nomination. M Kariyappa (talk) 14:25, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

References

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Coach name need to be removed

This is mohun bagan athletic club. Football operation is having separate page where coach is habas.but he is not the coach of entire mohun bagan.hence no specific coach or squad name can be here as it is not the page for only football team.it is for all operation. Sonabhaumik87 (talk) 21:08, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

This is predominantly football club page. So here in coach section it will be Habas until we get anything different in future. Drat8sub (talk) 21:12, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

If it is a football club page then the name and logo need to be updated in the latest one Sonabhaumik87 (talk) 00:18, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

How you guys keeps on changing the fact . It is ATK Mohun bagan going to play in the ISL . where is the logo . forget the main article . the logo can't be found anywhere . All those players and coach you listed are playing for or contracted to ATK Mohun bagan, not Mohun bagan Athletic club.. If you want to remove the ATK Mohun Bagan logo .. then remove the players and coach too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:8100:24D4:481:6C59:857C:A3A9:8663 (talk) 14:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

The first thing is, we need to follow a lot of guidelines to do things here. This is an encyclopedia, not your social media site that anytime anything you want you can post. Why logo is not there, because logo was deleted that too per guidelines. Will there be the latest logo, yes there will be but it will take time. Here we work with patience and take time to do things. And we don't change any facts, it's not our fault. If you follow ATK MB then ask club not to cry for "mariners" everytime they post anything if ATK MB does not represent Mohun Bagan. And if you are Mohun Bagan fan then ask club to tell what the truth is, does ATK MB represent Mohun Bagan or not. Here we work with reliable sources and whatever sources are avaiblable it's mixed, does not give a absolute conclusion. So next time don't come here to throw your tantrums, we know what we are doing here. Drat8sub (talk) 18:18, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

MB cleared their stand in January. They mentioned on their website that it would be a new club, and the ATKMB social media handles also say the same since 10 July.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  11:42, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

I hope you have been following the official sites. They mentioned that the website details will be updated shortly and probably we should wait for the launch of the official website before jumping into conclusions. And for your statement 'it would be a new club', you can check MB owner's official statements (recent ones) and hopefully you will get a clear picture. It would be better if you would only focus on the page of the club you support. IAmPushpak (talk) 01:56, 01 November 2020 (UTC)

websites of MB and ATKMB are different. An official press release is always an official press release and statements hardly matter as in many cases they aren't official and vague. Also personal statements differ from one owner to another. And you don't have to tell me, where will I contribute. no one is a boss here. everyone is free to do whatever they want (except policy violations)  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  17:35, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

ATKMB hasn't even launched their website. The latest press release of MB officials (dated 02.11.2020) stated that the ISL website will separately show the ATKFC achievements and won't link it with ATKMB. I hope you stay in touch with the latest news. I am not bossing here and asking you not to contribute. But unfortunately, your words seems like you have no info about the current scenarios and hence it would be better to focus on the page of the club which you have more infos about. IAmPushpak (talk) 20:08, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

I think IAmPushpak,first you need to go through the press release thoroughly and then explain us how the letter shows ATKMB as a continuation of Mohun Bagan's football department.Even in this press release they also used the word "new avatar" to avoid certain contoversy and it was only released through Mohun Bagan,ATKMB did not even mentioned any thing about the letter through their official social media handles.And if you want to get the crest back then first gather proper information about why it was deleted previously.A little knowledge is dangerous when you are trying to edit wikipedia.So please give us proper sources that are reliable to prove ATKMB a continuation of Mohun Bagan and then you can get your crest back again. BarcelonaFan995 (talk) 03:07, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Lol. An user whose first contribution is dated at 20th October 2020 is giving gyan of little knowledge. Now talking about knowing why the crest section was removed, if you would have checked my contribs, you could have had a better idea. But alas! all you had to do was talk irrelevant things because this thread was not at all related to crests. I feel pity for guys like you who considers themselves superiors to others. And for your relevant point, I hope you had read the previous discussions well before commenting. I still can't find the word 'ATKMB' in the entire press release by Srinjoy Bose. And since you are talking about "New Avatar", why not talk about the words preceding it? - 'when Mohun Bagan play ISL'. And your next point that ATK Mohun Bagan management didn't mentioned anything, well you are probably forgetting the fact that it was a press release made by Mohun Bagan Athletic Club, which includes the Cricket, Football and other sections as well. Shouldn't the parent entity make such press releases? I guess Yes. So in all probability, you must have seen a fan made meme and came here to comment. Get some life. IAmPushpak (talk) 20:18, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

I am allergic to stupidity but still i will do my best to polish the so called knowledge and experience you possessed.First you need to go through the history of football clubs merger http://en.m.wiki.x.io/wiki/List_of_football_club_mergers When two clubs merge,they form a new club and both of them got dissolved.there is no such superior body in a merged entity and according to you if we consider only parent entity makes such releases then what about these https://www.facebook.com/1475188052710235/posts/2887404548155238/ https://www.facebook.com/238802646187669/posts/3570116193056281/ Can you explain these two? The same statement was published by both of the clubs addressing fan's concerns.Let me explain,Debashis Dutta made the statement as a director of ATKMB board thats why it was published by both of the clubs through their social mecia handles. Srinjoy Bose made the statement as a general secretary of MBAC and addressed MB fans only as MBAC is nothing but a co-owner of the new club and ATKMB has nothing to do with Mohun Bagan AC thats why ATKMB did not even mentioned anything anywhere regarding the press release.Arrogance and stupidity in one package is not good at all.Please IAmPushpak don't vomit your inability,this place is already atrocious. BarcelonaFan995 (talk) 04:01, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

MAKE AWAY JERSEY FOR ATK MOHUN BAGAN( MOHUN BAGAN) ON THIS PAGE

even after trying to make the away jersey , my efforts were in vain. so , please make the away jersey of atk mohun bagan eka mohun bagan(for this page) in place of me. if possible leave blank space for sbotop.net in the home jersey.please make these changes . If you think of loading your culture make the away kit separate with nameFootball Away Kit,and keep the original away kit as it is but please make it.(https://www.news18.com/news/sports/isl-2020-21-atk-mohun-bagan-unveil-green-and-maroon-home-kit-with-champions-tag-3073724.html).chinakpradhan (talk) 04:20, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Away Kit redo

Can someone just redo the away kit because the shirt misses the two central Green & Maroon vertical stripes. Debankan Mullick (talk) 14:53, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

CHANGE IN AWAY KIT

Please add the two maroon and green stripes in the away kit. The present one is not the appropriate one. Debankan Mullick (talk) 22:49, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Page for ATK Mohun Bagan FC

Whether or not, ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a continuation of Mohun Bagan or not, it passes wikipedia notability standards and deserves its own page. In my opinion, ATK Mohun Bagan is the continuation of ATK and not Mohun Bagan and thus we should change the title of the ATK page to ATK Mohun Bagan FC and change the tense of all footballing activities in the Mohun Bagan A.C. page to past tense. Please let me know what everybody else's opinion is. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 19:16, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Now isl clarifies that ATK Mohunbagan is the defending champions That means we need different page or rename ATK FC page Abhishe78 (talk) 20:06, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

As we can see here https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkNiJcIX0AASZEu?format=jpg&name=large that the jersey and training kits of ATK Mohun Bagan FC have 3 stars, with Hero ISL champions 2019-20 embroided on it.This is a privilege only awarded to the defending champions and those 3 stars stand for the 3 ISL trophies won by ATK FC,so it is clear that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a rebranded version of ATK FC. BarcelonaFan995 (talk) 02:27, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

• If two clubs have merged to create a new entity, then it is standard to create a new article. GiantSnowman 18:29, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Clearly with all the changes taking place, we can say Atk Mohun Bagan is the rebranding of Atk, so it will be the best to move the article ATK to ATK Mohun Bagan MindSlayer13 (talk) 21:41, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Most of the sources we have are pointing out towards 2 possibilities, Either ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a continuation of ATK FC or it is a new entity.As most of the sources and the club itself claiming that it is a new club founded in 2020 https://m.facebook.com/pg/atkmohunbaganfc/about/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0 I think it will be better to create a new article for ATK Mohun Bagan. (BarcelonaFan995 (talk) 14:28, 28 October 2020 (UTC))

If this "new" club is a defending chapion, that it is clearly a contiuation of ATK. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 18:11, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Hero ISL has declared the fixture of the upcoming season.Here is the press release by the official website of Hero Indian Super League.Here they defined ATK Mohun Bagan FC as the defending champion of ISL. https://www.indiansuperleague.com/press-releases/hero-isl-embarks-upon-a-unique-season-with-unprecedented-115-games BarcelonaFan995 (talk) 13:24, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

• In the same citation they are writing, "playing in one of the oldest rivalries in Asian football - the Kolkata Derby". And that oldest rivalry is not with ATK its with Mohun Bagan. So, simply ISL is blowing hot and cold with the same pipe and in this case is not reliable at all. Drat8sub (talk) 13:30, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello,Drat8sub So according to you the governing body of Hero ISL is not reliable.Don't know should i laugh at this or not but if you go through the press release thoroughly they used the term "new entrants" for SC East Bengal but did not use same kind of words for ATK Mohun Bagan FC and there is also a 'Mohun Bagan' in ATKMB and where the name of both Mohun Bagan and East Bengal exist the flavour of centuary old rivalry automatically comes there does not matter what the prefix or suffix present there. BarcelonaFan995 (talk) 14:32, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

• Now not only FSDL/ISL but also AFC called ATK Mohun Bagan FC as the defending champion of Hero Indian Super League.Here is the link of the article AFC has published in their official website.

https://www.the-afc.com/news/afcsection/atk-mohun-bagan-to-kick-off-indian-super-league-title-defence-against-kerala-bla

Is AFC reliable, Drat8sub?

I think It is the right time to create a new article for ATK Mohun Bagan FC or rename the ATK FC's wiki page to ATK Mohun Bagan FC. BarcelonaFan995 (talk) 16:10, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

First I did not say ISL is not reliable, open your eyes wide open and see what my words was, I said in this case. Similarly, AFC is feeded by ISL, they don't control this, they publish whatever ISL feed them, so yes in this case AFC too unrelaible until and unless if have absolute confirmation of anything. I think laughable is that ISL, either you call water or you call ice, you cannot call the same thing as water and ice at the same time. So, this will be my last response and after that if you can't understand a simple thing then I am afraid you are a case of CIR. Because the total thing is hypocricy and we don't buy it here. ATK MB is defending champion that means ATK MB is ATK. Fine..stick to that, we will buy it. But the moment they say EB's debut will be playing in one of the oldest rivalries in Asian football - the Kolkata Derby, then this contradicts the first conclusion that ATK MB= ATK. Becasue rivalry is of EB and MB, not with ATK. You cannot call two things at a time, that's hypocricy and that's laughable. We can only create or take decision of doing anything if we have answer of any of this, "Is ATK MB a continuation of ATK?" or "ATK MB is nothing but the football team that represents Mohun Bagan just like previous MB Football club" We don't have any exact conclusion to any of this, hence we can't take any action at this moment. Drat8sub (talk) 17:43, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

So according to Drat8sub the governing body of association football in Asia continent,AFC is not reliable and they are spreading fake news on ATK Mohun Bagan.I think you are making a big allegation on AFC. Being one of the six confederations within FIFA they atleast verify what they are posting in their official website. BarcelonaFan995 (talk) 18:48, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

So, you reassured now that you will continue your WP:IDHT and what I've found out is that, you are the same user who was doing Campaining, a violation WP:CANVASS, at multiple user talk pages to influence outcome and which simply brings to one conclusion that Competence is required. And if this is not the case, then you are trying be over smart and next time if I find any cranky comment towards any unsers or taunts anyone, be sure you will be blocked. Drat8sub (talk) 20:15, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

When people go out of points to counter any valid arguments they start talking about other things.This is a very normal human behavior, so stop this personal attacks and if you have any kind of problem with me then come to my talk page i will be delighted to chat with such a dedicated fan like you. BarcelonaFan995 (talk) 23:54, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Even the FSDL has also started modifying the statistics section in the official website to reflect statistics before the 2020-21 season to be attributed to ATK and decides to starts the stats of atk mohun bagan from 2020-21 season , so we must als make a new page for keeping the stats of atk mohun bagan now. (https://www.telegraphindia.com/sports/indian-super-league-clean-slate-for-atk-mohun-bagan/cid/1796352).chinakpradhan (talk) 01:30, 3 november 2020 (UTC)

This the statement of SBOTOP principle sponcer of ATK Mohunbagan "Mohun Bagan is ready to move away from its 131-year-old legacy as they have joined forces with the three-time Indian Super League Champions, ATK FC. The merged entity has been called ATK Mohun Bagan FC and the franchise recently unveiled their new logo, which retains the charm of Mohun Bagan as well as the legendary club colours." Its clear from. Above statement that atk mohunbagan is a new team and requires a new article. Abhishe78 (talk) 12:38, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

The club itself said long ago in the press release that ATK and Mohun Bagan will make a new club to enter Hero ISL.In the about section of their official facebook page it is written 'new merged' club.Owner and director of ATKMB said in many interviews that they can not write 1889 in the logo as it is a new club founded in 2020.Big media houses like ESPEN,GOAL.Com,TOI etc had also claimed new merged club in so many articles related to ATKMB.AIFF also had 3 different pages for ATK,MB and ATKMB.One of the most followed and trusted football website transfermarkt had also created a new page for ATKMB with foundation date june1,2020.But still their are some editors in wikipedia who think they know much more about ATKMB compare to the club officials,AIFF,Media houses,FSDL/ISL and their only goal is to somehow save the image and legacy of a certain club by showing ATKMB as a continuation of MB.They will do their best to prevent other editors from creating a new article for ATK Mohun Bagan FC. BarcelonaFan995 (talk) 13:37, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

If ATK Mohun Bagan was a continuation of ATK then they would be playing the qualifying play offs of AFC Cup, as it was awarded to ATK and not the group stage of AFC Cup which was awarded to Mohun Bagan. And if the merger was completely a new entity then they wouldn't be allowed to play any of the AFC tournaments in the inaugural season. The fan fights are clearly making this topic complicated. Previously United Spirits too had bought stakes of Mohun Bagan, but that didn't lead to the formation of a new entity, so why this time. ATK Mohun Bagan is continuing every attribute of Mohun Bagan- they have same logo with a new prefix(which is not new), same kit colours, same taglines, same fanbase and will also play the 'oldest derby in Asia' as well. Debankan Mullick (talk) 08:08, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

The ISL, AIFF and also the ATK Mohun Bagan management are playing safe. And AFC just like UEFA, or any other international associations does not post news independently, they follow the grassroot associations. So whatever AIFF will tell AFC, they will consider that only. And AIFF itself doesn't want to declare the reality and want to keep the followers of both MB and ATK happy. Debankan Mullick (talk) 08:13, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Images for Crest Section

Hello Drat8sub, Is it possible to get back the images previously available for the crests section? Recently it was found that the images are no longer available and hence it was removed. IAmPushpak (talk) 01:56, 01 November 2020 (UTC)

Don't worry it will be added. Give me some time. Drat8sub (talk) 12:12, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

I added the crests but I didn't have sufficient data about copyrights, so they might get removed soon. I hope Drat8sub can arrange the crests and exchange them ASAP. Debankan Mullick (talk) 14:31, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

You should not have, why you bunch of club fans making things difficult. You have uploaded without knowing why it was deleted, how to upload, where to add. Just came to mind and uploaded. Please don't make chaos here, you fans are making things literally difficult here. There is nothing to arrange, all the logos will be deleted per guidelines. Drat8sub (talk) 17:36, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• 125 years celebration.jpg (discussion)
• ATK Mohun Bagan FC.png (discussion)
• Barasat Stadium.jpg (discussion)
• Barcelona vs Mohun Bagan.jpg (discussion)
• Bayern Munich vs Mohun Bagan.jpg (discussion)
• Centenary postal stamp.jpg (discussion)
• Jose Ramirez Barreto.jpg (discussion)
• McDowell's Mohun Bagan.jpg (discussion)
• Mohun Bagan Pvt. Ltd.png (discussion)
• Mohun Bagan old crest.png (discussion)
• MohunBagan Gallery communal harmony message.jpg (discussion)
• NY Cosmos vs Mohun Bagan.jpg (discussion)

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:53, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Hello Drat8sub, could you please look into this? Why are these nominated for deletion? Thanks in advance. IAmPushpak (talk) 08:31, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Add OTHER SPORTS

Since this page represents the club as a whole, so it is highly recommended to add a section of OTHER SPORTS to avoid disputes of whether this page represents only the football activities or not. Debankan Mullick (talk) 17:48, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi Debankan Mullick, we already have a section that redirects to other sports of Mohun Bagan. We will try to incorporate a brief secton of those areas too. IAmPushpak (talk) 08:54, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Protect the page

New users are coming and constantly changing the name and logo of the page. Someone provide a protection on this page. This page is referred to the whole multi-sport club not just the football operations. Debankan Mullick (talk) 17:07, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

ArnabSaha is there anyway to get a protection on this page. Debankan Mullick (talk) 14:33, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi Debankan Mullick, this article is already semi protected. IAmPushpak (talk) 08:57, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2020

2409:4073:189:77C:0:0:73D:D8A5 (talk) 15:22, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 15:33, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Separate page for ATK Mohun Bagan FC

Given that the Indian Super League starts tomorrow, and most of the dust has settled on whether ATK Mohun Bagan is a continuation of ATK FC or not (I think it can be said with very high confidence that ATK Mohun Bagan is not a continuation of ATK FC), and there is no real source/evidence saying that ATK Mohun Bagan is a continuation of the football department of Mohun Bagan, I would like to propose that a new page be made for ATK Mohun Bagan FC. If there are any sources which clearly states ATK Mohun Bagan is the continuation of Mohun Bagan, except for the two letters/statements already mentioned here (and on which there is no consensus), it would be great if someone could present that here. If not, please comment if there are any other objections.

Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 20:47, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

The owning company of ATK FC bought 80% stakes of Mohun Bagan FC to form ATK Mohun Bagan FC, so legally it is a continuation of Mohun Bagan FC. Similar thing had happen previously also when United Spirits bought stakes of MBFC to form McDowell Mohun Bagan FC. So I don't think there is any need of separate page. There is already a separate section for ATK MB in History, just like MMB has. Debankan Mullick (talk) 17:05, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Does Mohun Bagan AC still have any ownership or control in ATK Mohun Bagan FC? I'm trying to determine what the subject of this article truly is: the multi-sport club or its football club. —C.Fred (talk) 17:17, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

20% stakes are still with MB FC so they have a little control as well. Debankan Mullick (talk) 07:52, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

And MB FC is a part of MB AC Society Debankan Mullick (talk) 07:54, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Since a seperate page aor ATK Mohun BAgan is already created, It would be better to clear the squad & technical staff from here, and Owner column should be only MBAC society. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellowiki137 (talk • contribs) 10:29, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Protect the page

Constant vandalism is occuring since the protection was removed. Please add a protection ASAP. Debankan Mullick (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Barretopictureinmohunbagangallery.jpg (discussion)
• BaseCampZone.jpg (discussion)

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:00, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Current Season redirects to 2020-21 ATK Mohun Bagan FC page

If ATK Mohun Bagan is a new club formed by the merger of the football division of Mohun Bagan and ATK, then why the current season link redirects to 2020-21 ATK Mohun Bagan page? The same is not found on the ATK FC page. Either it should be on both club's wikipedia page or it should be on no ones. Laser Victor 2017 ❯❯❯ talk 08:07, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Since more than 5 days has passed, and none has responded, I'm going forward on deleting the section. Laser Victor 2017 ❯❯❯ talk 11:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 17 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. per discussion consensus and title consistency. FYI to nominator, this should have been done as one single RM discussion, with all the titles listed. But it's easier to just go ahead and do the moves now. (non-admin closure) — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 10:39, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

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Mohun Bagan A.C. → Mohun Bagan AC – Consistency with current naming conventions in Category:Football clubs in India , Category:Indian Super League teams and so on. Footwiks (talk) 06:44, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 11:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - one of a mass number of nominations by this editor (at least 16 by my count?!) with no sources presented and no clear category convention to match. GiantSnowman 11:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Many Indian Football Club article titles have FC or SC or AC, But Some Indian Football Club article titles have F.C. or S.C. or A.C. So In order to unify disordered article titles, I requested many title moves. What's wrong with that?

Moreover, Mohun Bagan Official website is using Mohun Bagan ACFootwiks (talk) 14:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support for consistency. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 20:53, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support for consistency. I was the one who actually moved a lot of these articles since Indian clubs en masse do not use the "." in FC, SC, AC etc. Most likely, the articles were titled like that due to original editors copying what is done with the Premier League. The Indian Super League itself doesn't add dots, and neither does the I-League. All other clubs have social media and some news coverage which never uses the dots. The Times of India doesn't use it, outlook india doesn't and even The Hindu does not include them. It's literally something that just does not exist in India or used besides on some wikipedia articles. Makes no sense to include. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:08, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:54, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Issue regarding Merge of Articles

Although a lot about this matter is already discussed before, but still, as a die-heart fan of this historic club, I am starting the discussion again in a new section. I think by creating a new article, it is indirectly meant that this is a new club and not continuation of the century-old club. I must say by meaning so, the dignity of Mohun Bagan club and even the patriotic spirit of the Indians is vilified, reminiscing the fact that the victory of Mohun Bagan against many British football teams during pre-independence era rejuvenated the lost spirit of patriotism in the hearts of crores of Indians. Just as our arch-rivals East Bengal has a single article, the similar thing should be done in case of this football club. Just as the colour and crest of Mohun Bagan is kept intact, the history of the club should be likewise kept unaltered. So, the page ATK Mohun Bagan FC should be dissolved into and not merged with this article. All Mohun Baganis are hereby requested to raise their voice regarding this burning issue. Thank you.--Michri michri (talk) 08:50, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

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Merger proposal

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn unanimously by official data. 103.27.142.111 (talk) 11:55, 21 March 2023 (UTC) 103.27.142.111 (talk) 11:55, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

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I propose merging ATK Mohun Bagan FC into Mohun Bagan AC. Recent announcement by ATKMB principal owner Dr. Sanjiv Goenka about renaming ATKMB to MBSG has made it clear beyond doubt that ATKMB is not a merged entity, but the football division of MBAC only. ATK is just a brand name representing the investor group led by Dr. Goenka, which will soon be replaced by Super Giants. So, maintaining a separate page and record-book for ATKMB is unnecessary. Essentially, ATKMB (soon to be renamed to MBSG) is similar to McDowell's Mohun Bagan, which was the football division of Mohun Bagan from 1998 to 2015.

Waiting till branding of Mohun Bagan Super Giant.

We should the page of ATKMB seperately because Wikipedia depends on reliable sources. World famous reliable sources still consider ATKMB as a new club 2020. Moreover in AIFF official website there are different profile for ATKMB and MB. So we should have to wait for merging or renaming till official branding of new name Mohun Bagan super giant. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 03:17, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

After the announcement, caution to editors!!! main Rule no. it's next season name is Mohun Bagan SG not this season for this season it's ATK Mohun Bagan FC. This season still has Super Cup and Indian AFC Cup qualifiers, where the team is still ATKMB, change only after completing Indian qualifiers on 29 April or 3 May 2022. You can do as your wish to rename, go back to MB page or merge this page, but do all those things after Indian AFC cup qualifiers 103.27.142.111 (talk) 11:55, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Inclusion of Pre 1996 Season

Hi,

It has been observed that there is just no record of the matches Mohun Bagan played from 1889 to 1996. All the seasons starts from 1996. However for such a heritage club, atleast Wikipedia should have the details. So I would request the editors to include previous seasons also, from 1889 to 1996

IAmPushpak (talk) 07:29, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Pushpak, this is a very good initiative. Unfortunately though Indian football matches are not well documented before start of the National Football League. Can you please share any sources providing data for these seasons? That might be a good starting point. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 17:39, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Well I can find out one source -

http://www.mohunbaganclub.com/history/history-1889-1909/ IAmPushpak (talk) 19:03, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Here's another one -

https://thehardtackle.com/2010/history-of-mohun-bagan-chapter-1-the-origin-and-the-success-that-changed-indian-football/ IAmPushpak (talk) 19:09, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Issue regarding merger of articles

Merger of ATKMB page to MBAC page is not same as renaming of ATKMB to MBSG. ATKMB will be renamed to MBSG after this season, but the announcement has been made already, which in turn has proven that ATKMB is the football division of MBAC, and not any separate entity. So we should merge the two pages and start counting the records together right now. At least this is my view, but I am up for debate and did not edit anything unilaterally. It is unfortunate that the merger proposal discussion has been closed and I cannot login to my account either. @SAIKAT MARINERS DEY @103.27.142.111 150.107.179.178 (talk) 10:54, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Still there is no reply from the admins regarding the Mergers. Is there anyone who can merge these two pages? We have been discussing this issue since March I guess IAmPushpak (talk) 14:06, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Adding last 3 seasons' history, statistics and records here

After Dr, Goenka's announcement had cleared all confusions about ATKMB (soon to be renamed to MBSG) being MB and MB only, I proposed to merge the ATKMB page to the MBAC page, but @103.27.142.111 closed that discussion abruptly without allowing enough people to engage. So, without altering the status or contents of the ATKMB page, I am gradually adding all history, records and statistics of the last 3 seasons to the MBAC page. In the meantime, we can discuss wheher a separate ATKMB page is necessary at all. @SAIKAT MARINERS DEY @ArsenalFan700 @Ramit mukherjee Mohunbagani (talk) 11:00, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

@Ramit.mukherjee.1994 Mohunbagani (talk) 11:04, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

ATKMB is supposed to be renamed MBSG starting from next season (agreed). Any rebranding of any page to include Mohun Bagan Super Giants however should wait until the rebranding has been done.

Regarding ATK Mohun Bagan FC being a continuation of Mohun Bagan AC (football division), I am going to agree with that not based on just the letters provided to IFA, which has been mentioned in this talkpage before, but based on the bio also provided on its social media handle WP:FACEBOOK, which I quote here,

"Established on 15th August 1889, Mohun Bagan Athletic Club is one of the oldest clubs in India and the World. ATK FC was founded in May 2014 to represent Kolkata in the Indian Super League (ISL). In July 2020, the Football section of Mohun Bagan AC and ATK FC came together to form a company under the banner ATK Mohun Bagan FC.

ATK Mohun Bagan FC continues with the existing registration of Mohun Bagan Athletic Club with AIFF/IFA and its rich history and tradition. It made its first ISL appearance in Season 7 and finished runner-up in its very first season."

<ref>https://www.facebook.com/atkmohunbaganfc/about/?ref=page_internal<ref>

The bio clearly states that a new company and NOT a new football club was formed under the name ATK Mohun Bagan FC, which in my opinion causes ATK Mohun Bagan as a football club to fail Wikipedia:Notability. Secondly, the bio clearly states that ATK Mohun Bagan FC continues with the existing registration of Mohun Bagan AC with AIFF/IFA, which validates the images of the letters that has been sent to IFA, and it does not create issues with WP:RS.

Given these two points, I think there should be more discussion on why or why not to merge ATK Mohun Bagan FC page to Mohun Bagan AC, but there is no reason to not add ATK Mohun Bagan FC's records, statistics and history to Mohun Bagan AC page. If anyone disagrees he/she is welcome to either discuss it here or revert edits on the page itself, but I am worried it will get to a point of edit warring.

Since ArsenalFan700 was the first person to start this discussion, I would very much appreciate his thoughts on this. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 16:40, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Still there is no update from any of the admins. Is there anyone who can merge the contents? IAmPushpak (talk) 14:07, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Protection request to admin

All editors started to add ATKMB records in this page. They are requested to wait till official branding of Mohun Bagan super giant. Admins are requested to protect this page. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 00:20, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

After official branding, we will discuss about closing down the ATKMB page. But now there is no confusion that ATKMB is Mohun Bagan, so ATKMB records should be included here. Mohunbagani (talk) 04:10, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Please wait after official branding of MBSG. Still as per ATKMB is considered as a new club. My request is to wait till official branding. Because there is a seperate club profile for Mohun Bagan and atkmb. So please wait. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 07:57, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

In the above discussion, it is clearly mentioned stating the Facebook page bio of ATK Mohun Bagan page that it is NOT a new club and hence it fails Wikipedia:Notability . So I guess, it's legitimate to wait till the official announcement and then close down the other page and include all the seasons in this page itself IAmPushpak (talk) 07:27, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Official announcement is done now so I think we should move ahead with updating this page and deleting the other page. @SAIKAT MARINERS DEY @IAmPushpak @Ramit.mukherjee.1994 @ArsenalFan700 Mohunbagani (talk) 03:45, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

After official announcement the admins will start to update. Don't worry. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 03:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

The official announcement is done. So I guess there should be a clear discussion with the admins what's the way forward.

1. The new page should be deleted.
2. All the records of the last 3 seasons should be included in this page.

IAmPushpak (talk) 15:01, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Official branding will be done at 1 June 2023. Please wait SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 15:04, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Well now I guess it's time. The admins should take this up and merge the page with the original MBAC page now IAmPushpak (talk) 18:50, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Who are the admins? Still no update from them. Is there anyone who can merge the pages? IAmPushpak (talk) 14:07, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Merge Proposal (June 2023)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was: Merge . Mohunbagani (talk) 10:03, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

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This discussion is based on the merger proposal submitted in Mohun Bagan SG proposing to merge Mohun Bagan SG into Mohun Bagan AC Support Based on the edits made to the social media handles of Mohun Bagan Super Giant, this entity is clearly a continuation of Mohun Bagan (https://www.facebook.com/atkmohunbaganfc/about_details) and there is no reason to maintain a separate page for Mohun Bagan SG. Instead Mohun Bagan SG after the merge should redirect to Mohun Bagan AC

Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 23:59, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Merge : So I guess we all agreed to the point that the two pages should be merged. So what are we still waiting for? Is there anyone who can do the honour? Please someone merge the two pages and then delete this page IAmPushpak (talk) 14:10, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Merge :Exactly. There is no need for a separate page any more. Requesting admin to kindly merge. Mohunbagani (talk) 07:40, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Mohun Bagan is not just a football club.. and also it Mohun Bagan shouldn't have a franchise name such as Mohun Bagan super giants.. I think we should keep the Mohun Bagan page seperate and MBSG seperate 117.211.64.77 (talk) 22:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Page name will remain Mohun Bagan AC. Name of football team will be mentioned as Mohun Bagan SG. We didn't have separate page for McDowell's Mohun Bagan, so that doesn't make sense even now. Mohunbagani (talk) 05:52, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

McDowells was a sponsor while SG is a franchise now which bought mohun Bagan football team 117.211.64.77 (talk) 18:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Nobody bought anybody. Mohun Bagan SG is a joint venture just like McDowell's Mohun Bagan. Please get your facts correct. Mohunbagani (talk) 06:09, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Super giants is a franchise not super giant and it’s Mohun Bagan super giant and who said this to you super giant is a franchise? Super giant it’s just a banner for rpsg group rpsg group they do their all sports activities with this name 45.248.56.74 (talk) 06:22, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Nothing is changed with this mbsg is a continuation of mbac football division So what is the need for a separate page? even mbsg management also saying this in their bio the club estd in 1889 now mbsg official Wikipedia also showing this sofascore also showing same thing afc club ranking showing same thing that past atkmb and now mbsg is a continuation of mbac football division and the club founded in 1889, Now only the Transfermrkt is left to be updated

All these will be merged with Mohun Bagan Athletic Club after the MBSG name becomes official ( I am just assume and it’s should be) 45.248.56.74 (talk) 06:36, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Merge: per proposal. First, their disassociation with the prefix ATK and indeed the official page bio update mentions, Estd. on 15th August 1889, Mohun Bagan is one of the oldest clubs in India and the World and is the current defending champion of Indian Super League. Drat8sub (talk) 10:40, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Well Mohun Bagan SG is not a new team. It is the continuation of MBAC only. It is the footballing section of MBAC. Either you can make it only the footballing section and include the data of all the season since 1889 (or whatever is available) and have a separate cricket section, or you can include all the data in MBAC page, like it used to be previously. Requesting the Admins to act promptly as the name has been changed officially in their social media pages and official documents as well. We should act now too IAmPushpak (talk) 18:47, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

yes merge the page. page name should be MBAC with MBSG mentioned 103.249.7.83 (talk) 14:01, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Mohun Bagan super giant should be merged with Mohun Bagan AC. The entity is not separate and Mohun Bagan holds a single license with IFA. The team holds the same license which was held before by Mohun Bagan AC and the page should be merged with immediate action. Ujjayan Majumdar (talk) 10:36, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Title change

Proposition to change the article name as Mohun Bagan Super Giant instead of Mohun Bagan Athletic Club, since the article is about the football department and its history. We can add Mohun Bagan Athletic Club in the article where the topic involves details before 2020 or when it's about the parent club. Otherwise it doesn't look appropriate to the subject the article is about. Debankan ^talk 09:03, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

This page is dedicated to Mohun Bagan AC, and majorly to its football division. Mohun Bagan SG is only a chapter in the long history of the football division of MBAC. Yesterday the name was different, tomorrow the name might be different again. That does not mean the page title or even the infobox title must be changed every time. Mohunbagani (talk) 13:13, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

https://www.instagram.com/p/CuMk-VePdUk/ soon it will be released and uploaded, while mb logo can go under history section — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.120.248 (talk) 00:43, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Allegation of Bias

@Debankan Mullick you have brought allegation about some bias while deleting and modifying a large part of the article. But I found that most of it is re-writing, and there are some inaccuracies too. For example, RPSG Mohun Bagan Pvt Ltd is a joint venture. KGSPL does not "own" the football division of Mohun Bagan per se. It is a conditional shareholding. That is why I wrote "sponsorship", which can be rewritten as "branding" but not "ownership". Secondly, the infobox now suggests that MBFC(I)PL owns MBAC while RPSGMBPL owns MBSG. It is inaccurate because actually MBAC owns MBFC(I)PL. This is why it would be better to mention the President (of MBAC) and Chairman (of MBSG) here and leave the detailed discussion for the "Ownership" section. Thirdly, as I have already mentioned, it is a joint venture, not an ownership deal like you have written in the "History" section. In light of this, please make these changes or give some counter-argument. Also tell me what all biases you found. @Ramit.mukherjee.1994@Ramit.mukherjee.1994, @IAmPushpak@IAmPushpak, @SAIKAT MARINERS DEY Mohunbagani (talk) 17:10, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

@ArsenalFan700 Mohunbagani (talk) 17:11, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

The allegation was not against you. Specifically, I found biased writings in the Supporters section where certain member of a certain fanbase mentioned their fanbases supposed contributions towards unifying fans of the club without any citations. And about sponsorship issue, this partnership is not a sponsorship, it's an ownership deal. A sponsor doesn't have any authority over club's functioning, but an owner does. Branding and Sponsoring are synonymous, so it can't be used either. MBAC itself is a registered entity which also has shares in RPSGMBPL, that's why I wrote MBACPL owns MBAC and RPSGPL owns MBSG. Debankan ^talk 17:30, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

It is not ownership but joint venture. KGSPL does not own the football division of Mohun Bagan. It can walk away from the joint venture, but cannot disband or sell the football division of Mohun Bagan. We can say KGSPL is investor here, and Super Giant is the brand name the represents the investor. Calling it ownership is misleading.

MBAC is a society. MBAC owns MBFC(I)PL, not the other way round. Nobody owns MBAC. There is no entity called MBACPL. A pvt ltd company was set up only to run the football operations, not other activities of the club. Mohunbagani (talk) 17:39, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I had changed the MBAC(I)PL issue after I realised my mistake, although it has been replaced by something else, thanks for pointing it out anyway.

But about the KGSPL ownership issue, the point you mentioned about supposed disbandment, KGSPL doesn't have the right not because it's not an owner, but because there will still be 20% stakes secured by MBFC(I)PL, so the minority stakeholders will receive the complete stakes of the division. And moreover, as far as I remember, the joint venture deal had no clause for the right of disbanding. Debankan ^talk 16:42, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes there is such provision. As per my understanding from various sources, the identity elements of Mohun Bagan are not properties of RPSGMBPL. MBFCPL has granted them those rights as part of the deal. Deal can be terminated mutually, or through buy-out, or legally in case of any fundamental breach. In any case, KGSPL cannot own the name "Mohun Bagan", or the sailboat logo, or any other identity element of Mohun Bagan if the JV is terminated. Mohunbagani (talk) 20:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 3 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page not moved (non-admin closure) Debankan ^talk 19:07, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

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Mohun Bagan AC → Mohun Bagan Super Giant – This page is primarily responsible for the footballing activities of the multi-sport club Mohun Bagan AC, and the football team is officially registered as Mohun Bagan Super Giant. Many would contest this opinion by saying that this page covers all the aspects of Mohun Bagan AC and not just football team. But in that case, it makes no sense to make separate pages of Mohun Bagan AC (cricket), Mohun Bagan AC (field hockey) and Mohun Bagan SG (youth) instead of adding them all in this page itself. Furthermore, Wikipedia has no such template for 'multi-sports club', but templates for individual sporting activities of a multi-sports club. For example, FC Barcelona and Real Madrid CF are multi-sports clubs, but their football team page doesn't consider itself as a multi-sports club article. Changing the article name won't affect the historical data from pre-2023 era. Debankan ^talk 17:36, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

yes, this article is about Football division. Let's have the page to be named what the football section is that is Mohun Bagan Super Giant, with MBSG ISL logo in the position of the crest in infobox. DaDeadzombie (talk) 18:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

When the name of the football division was McDowell's Mohun Bagan, the name of this page was still Mohun Bagan AC I guess. Now should we make a separate page for MMB to cover those years? It is not practical. Changing the name of the article every time is also not practical. Wikipedia is an aggregator of information on any topic, Wikipedia articles do not have to adhere to any branding requirements. Mohunbagani (talk) 18:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

This isn't a branding issue; this is an issue about the name. If in future some new sponsors come and rename the team, then the article name must be changed accordingly because since it is the only logical move. During MMB era I wasn't on Wikipedia so I can't reiterate what happened at that time. Atletico de Kolkata was also changed to ATK when they got registered under that name. Likewise, Minerva Punjab FC was also changed to RoundGlass Punjab FC, Delhi Dynamos was changed to Odissa FC, East Bengal was changed to SC East Bengal. Debankan ^talk 19:05, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

No. It may have been done in some cases, but is not the standard international practice at all. Like, KK Crvena zvezda is not named Crvena zvezda MeridianBet currently. Ligue 1 is not named Ligue 1 Uber Eats currently. Camp Nou is not named Spotify Camp Nou currently. Mohunbagani (talk) 19:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

If wikipedia doesn't have template for 'multi-sports clubs', then I think we can have the MBAC page as the base page. Then MBAC Cricket, MBAC Hockey, MBAC Athletics and MBSG Football can have separate pages.

Only condition is that MBSG page should cover all the season from 1889 (or from when the data is available) instead of starting from 2020 or 2023 IAmPushpak (talk) 19:50, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Then what do we have in the base page? It will be devoid of content. Current arrangement is best. Cannot and should not change the name, let alone make new pages, for every rebranding. Mohunbagani (talk) 19:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

And remember soon as atk gone, page was merged. If such things happen after every new sponsor, whats whole point?!?!?!....... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.120.79 (talk) 18:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. It makes no sense to make a new page for every rebranding. This is the landing page for MBAC and at the same time it covers the football division. Mohunbagani (talk) 18:47, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

The proposal is not to make a new page but to change the article name according to the actual name. Mohun Bagan AC isn't the football club's name. There is no provision on Wikipedia for multi-sport club. For a multi-sport club there will be separate pages for each division, and since this is the football team's page, it makes no sense to call it with a different name than its official name. The other sport pages of Mohun Bagan will use Mohun Bagan AC name as those teams play with that name. Debankan ^talk 18:55, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Did not get this. Does Wikipedia explicitly forbid writing articles for multi-sports clubs? Mohunbagani (talk) 19:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

2 infoboxes are fine, when already atkmb page gone. mbsg under mbac as its main section. 93.143.120.79 (talk) 23:47, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

the page should continue as Mohun Bagan Athletic Club as it's the page for the club not it's football team. There have been enough and more communication officially demonstrating the essence and DNA of Mohun Bagan AC. Let's not create more confusion around the same. There is no defined template in which you label things and for a family mapping, the primary root name should be considered. Ztruc (talk) 11:12, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

That works too. Fine, I'll close the discussion then. Thanks for the cooperation. Debankan ^talk 18:56, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose This article is about the multi-sport athletic club called "Mohun Bagan AC" – the football ops called " Mohun Bagan Super Giants" is a subtopic of the athletic club and warrants a standalone article.— TheWikiholic (talk) 05:54, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  Giant...S?! 😄😄😄😄😄😄 93.143.128.94 (talk) 11:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MBSG Logo update

can someone please upload high resolution SVG image for Mohun Bagan Super Giant logo 103.249.7.100 (talk) 20:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Separate Wikipage for Mohun Bagan SG

why is there not a separate Wikipedia page for the football club? i feel like this page is not enough to cover the football part as it talks about all the sports departments that is in the club itself. sp to avoid disputes and easy changes pls create a separate wikipage for the football department Credmaster 20 (talk) 08:31, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

this page mainly tells about football division. So no problem SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 05:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Season overview and Honours

ISL playoffs is part of ISL, but ISL playoffs is displayed as a different knockout cup section in season overview table. Admins are requested to correct this error SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 16:04, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

ISL Shield is equivalent to I-League/NFL.

ISL Trophy is a knock-out trophy so cannot be counted as a league title. Mohunbagani (talk) 16:47, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Your consideration is logically correct, but officially not. Because, Officially the league includes regular season and playoffs stage; ISL shield winners are not considered as champions, they are considered as premiers of ISL, but ISL knockout trophy winners are considered as champions i.e, overall winners of the of the league. So we can say it league title. Please don't vandalise the page. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 02:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

ISL Premiers are equivalent to I-League/NFL Champions. This is why the highest slot in Asian club competitions for India was transferred from I-League Champions to ISL Premiers. Please cite any official document that suggests otherwise. Mohunbagani (talk) 03:15, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@SAIKAT MARINERS DEY we are supposed to debate here, not in the edit history section. I will not let your edit stay up until you win the debate here. Please tag people you want to participate in this debate. We can have a poll also. Mohunbagani (talk) 10:03, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

See. The name of the league is Indian Super League. It consists two parts:- Regular season and playoffs. Officially these two stages are two different parts of same tournament, not two different tournaments. The champions trophy named Indian Super League trophy is awarded to the grand finale winners. So grand final winners are called as champions i.e, overall winners of the league. Regular season table topper are awarded a trophy named League Winners Shield and called as premiers of ISL.

Now come to the point of AFC slot. It's correct that highest AFC slot is awarded to the ISL premiers i.e, ISL premiers are the main Indian representative in AFC. But for this reason we can't tell them champion of the league. In our nation India, Prime Minister mainly represents India in international stages like global summit, financial economical meeting, or any militar deals or agreement etc. But officially PM is not our constitutional head. Officially our constitutional head is President but he doesn't do nothing as Indian representative in international stage. So if ISL is compared to our Constitution, then premiers are equivalent to the PM and Champions are equivalent to the President i.e, Constitutional Head. This means champions of ISL are the champions of our top tier league. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 12:50, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Valid point. In that case I think we should write ISL Regular Season instead of Indian Super League in the Season Overview section. Nevertheless, ISL Premiers have undoubtedly taken the baton from I-League Champions, and ISL Premiership comes before ISL Championship in the pecking order. So, we should count ISL Premiership as national title instead of ISL Championship. Mohunbagani (talk) 15:47, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Both are national title. Championship title is the ISL title and Premiership title is the League shield title. In List of Australian soccer champions, the grand finale winners are considered as champions. Now A-League grand finale winners are not awarded the AFC alot, but still grand finale winners are counted as official top tier league champions where regular league winners are counted as Premiers not as the champions. You can't mixture the premiership and championship title. As previously NFL and I league winners were the champions we can't combine them with premiership title. Total number of League championship title of Mohun Bagan is six and Premiership title is zero. You can see List of Australian soccer champions. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 03:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Can you refer to any official list? The list of Indian champions as well as Australian champions are not cited, i.e., no official source is mentioned. Mohunbagani (talk) 04:15, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

With respect to officiality I'll say we can't tell premiers as champions. So please don't create no more ambiguity. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 13:23, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

One question: why don't we count Fed Cups won between 1977 and 1996 also? The were the Champions of India in those days, right? For example, see the List of German football champions. Even though Bundesliga started from 1963, German football championship started from 1903. Mohunbagani (talk) 12:40, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Official German cup DFB-Pokal started in 1935 which was running parallel to Germany football championship. So German football championship was a tournament which was replaced by Bundesliga. But federation cup was still running parallel to NFL/I-League since inception of the league. So both aspects were different.SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 02:36, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

ISL and I-League have also been running parallelly. And I am not talking about DFB Pokal but German Football Championship only. Mohunbagani (talk) 09:16, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

You have drawn about inclusion of Fed Cup champion as the national champion so i draw example of German cup. See, Fed Cup was still running after the league inception, but German football championship was replaced by Bundesliga and original German cup (DFB-POKAL) was running parallel to German football championship. So fed Cup and German football championship are not same. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 11:11, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

But I-League and ISL are same? ISL started in 2014 and I-League is still running. We should be consistent. Mohunbagani (talk) 13:07, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

2017-2022 India were running through parallel football leagues because both leagues had AFC slot. We should draw the top league championship in same line so that the readers feel easy to read the national championship statistics easily. You can see Bengaluru FC page also. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 16:31, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

What's your current opinion in issue, Mohunbagani? After going through the thread, I don't see that any conclusion has been firmly reached yet there is an edit war going on. As for my views, I don't find any logical reason for considering ISL Championship in lines with I-League/NFL. Even if Mohun Bagan had won ISL Premiership, I don't think it should in same row, since both are different competitions, unlike NFL and I-League, wherein the latter is a rebranding of the former. Debankan ^talk 18:54, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

The only parallel that can be drawn is with A-League Men. Taking the example of Perth Glory FC, which not only won the A-League Championship and the Premiership but also won the National Soccer League Championship and the Premiership, has clearly mentioned all the competitions separately even though A-League is a successor of NSL. None other club with similar narrative has any issue about it. Every such club has mentioned those competition honours separately. It's too trivial to cause such a serious matter. In no logical context ISL Championship should be regarded as the league title, and I think Mohunbagani will still agree with me considering his earliest thoughts in this thread. Debankan ^talk 19:08, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, my opinion is more or less same. I can understand where @SAIKAT MARINERS DEY is coming from, but by that logic we should also count Fed Cup titles from 1978-96 alongside NFL, I-League and ISL. Therefore, I am more inclined to list NFL/I-League, ISL Championship and ISL Premiership separately, and count ISL Premiership together with NFL/I-League when it comes to counting national league titles.Mohunbagani (talk) 10:50, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

You see Bengaluru FC page. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 14:03, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@Drat8subsir! Can you kindly come here and make the conclusion? Please sir. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 14:58, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Back then there was no Premiership, so the Championship itself was counted as the league title, although it wasn't a generic league title per se. Moreover, Bengaluru finished the league top of the table anyway, so technically they are league toppers as well. Debankan ^talk 08:26, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

When ISL is changing its own history, who are we to oppose that? We are just record keepers. Mumbai City wearing the "Champions" badge means Mumbai City are the Champions of 2022-23. Please close this topic. I had accepted your point back then, but now the situation has changed. Mohunbagani (talk) 15:29, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

The present table seems absolutely fine, with required info, well summarised. Bengaluru FC table must be segregated to show premiership and championship info separately. You cannot show a championship information with in a league when the club is ending as third place in regular season, since ISL have separate league winner and champions. I have done little tweak to include the championship and premiership info for consistency. But if there is a problem with the table, then it the colour of the heading. Not per guidelines, not per colour blindness combination, use the colour similar to Coaching staff section. The text in white and the column in alternate green and maroon. Thank you. Drat8sub (talk) 15:48, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@Drat8sub Sir!: Season overview section is correct. But there is one more confusion that is in Honours section and initial summary section. I have written the top level league championship (NFL/I-League/ISL) in same line as 6 titles in Honours table and in initial summary I've written Till now Mohun Bagan won the top flight league 6 times (as we know the grand final winners of ISL are considered as the overall winners of the league). I've done such to keep similarities with List of Indian football champions page. That is still under controversy in talkpage. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 02:28, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I have seen the lead which is very much ok, summarised well, making no confusion since MB won the ISL championship and not the Premiership. But one thing I want to add, try to avoid the references from the lead if the information is discussed in the below section. Like the league title line have ref.2. Rather you add a prose in the 'Honour' section in details: what, when and which title or championship they won, what was their regular league position when they won the championship and the reference there but not in the lead. Lead should have minimal reference only if some facts are not discussed anywhere else. And please correct the colour thing in the overview section. Drat8sub (talk) 05:10, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Tell me one thing, suppose Mohun Bagan wins a double - Premiers and Champions - then according to your lead, it will be 2 'league titles' in one season which absolutely doesn't make sense. As per your stance a team will be considered a 'league winner' even if they end at the 6th position but manage to win the Final. The List of Indian football champions page has its own problems. The page clearly gives no importance to the premiership whatsoever all the while when ISL Champions aren't even considered the 2nd most important honour by the AIFF or its stakeholders, who upon discussion considers Super Cup, as of now, as the 2nd most important competition, whose winners win a continental spot. A country has 2 primary top level tournaments, domestic league and domestic cup. ISL Championship is none. Debankan ^talk 08:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

First, kindly don't put your own word in someone else's mouth. Keep your perception and analysis to yourself, this does not go well with NPOV guidelines. Here, a team will be considered a 'league winner' even if they end at the 6th position but manage to win the Final., nobody said that, rather it's ISL Champion, you are failing to understand again and again even after our fellow user SKD tried several times. You need to understand, the decision of making a ISL play-offs winner as champion of ISL and not giving them the AFC top slot lies totally with them not on wikipedians. As long as they make ISL playoffs winner as Champion we have to write playoff winners as champions. Is the play-offs winner is Champions of ISL or not, answer is yes. Is ISL the top tier league of India or not, answer is again yes. So the ISL champion is Indian football champion, as simple as that.

Secondly, suppose Mohun Bagan wins a double - Premiers and Champions - then according to your lead, it will be 2 'league titles' in one season which absolutely doesn't make sense., again your POV and perception. We never said that. If they become champion it will credited as title, because the trophy goes to the champion not the premier and if they won both then the prose will be updated accordingly like They also won the 2023-24 ISL shield in the lead and in the concerned section like: 'Overview' or 'Honour' the prose will be written in details.

Third, why should anyone give importance to premiership above championship. The page is about championship. And by saying no importance is so wrong to say. It's clearly included in the table beside champions and also written in prose in notes and in lead that there are two different aspects in ISL. It does not matter who gets what spot as I have mentioned earlier, till the time they call ISL playoffs winner as champions and give the ISL trophy to them. Every league is different in this way or that way we no need to follow other leagues. They call it announce it, we write it, as simple as that. So, kindly don't bring NPOV concerns. Drat8sub (talk) 09:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

All well and good, but then in extension of this logic, Fed Cup champions were the champions of India from 1978 to 1997, because there was no other club competition above it. Mohunbagani (talk) 10:32, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

That article have a separate section for Fed Cup. For the lead, one or two line can be included. But most important is adding prose for those sections. Otherwise, the article is showing stats in proper way so far. Anyway, I have a plan of working on that article to take it to FLC, so wait for a while (since I already have an article at FLC) to see the article in best possible state. Drat8sub (talk) 11:04, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Nobody said that? That's exactly what is written in the article. My take was clear and void of any conflict - Make separate rows for different honours rather than jotting all down into one and calling them first division; whether a particular tournament is a league title or not a reader can follow through in the respective tournament page links. By putting ISL championship honour along with I-League with "(First division)" clearly states that that the playoff title is the league title. If I had to make my own analysis to myself and work by it then I'd have continued an edit war rather than requesting for a civil discussion until someone with more authority, like you, would come in and ban me for not going according to your opinions. A little politeness won't lessen your authority or your experience. List of Indian football champions got nothing to do with this page. I can't understand how something that's mentioned there has to be enforced over this page. Throughout this thread there has been not a single conclusive statement, but complications by bringing in references from variety of unrelated sources. Debankan ^talk 22:35, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Vivekananda Yuba Bharati Krirangan

Stadium page under attack (capacity) 93.143.252.66 (talk) 13:24, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Jersey

Until when will be empty only if users cant upload new version..... 93.140.103.186 (talk) 23:47, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Youth logo

http://en.m.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Mohun_Bagan_Super_Giant.svg#mw-jump-to-license

Can someone fix this issue 93.140.103.186 (talk) 12:28, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Display problem

I don't know why there is a view problem in club ranking section. If club ranking section is clicked then only Performance in AFC competitions, notable players, Mohun Bagan day and so on section are displayed. But these should be displayed differently like other section. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 05:45, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I also do not know why this is happening. Requesting someone to fix this if they can. Mohunbagani (talk) 05:25, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

The problem seems to be only on mobile wikipedia. Desktop version seems fine. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 17:00, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ramit.mukherjee.1994@Mohunbagani There is no display problem now. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 08:18, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

I have corrected it. The issue was due to {{col-begin|width=95%}} template. I would suggest avoiding this template and use {{Col-begin}} {{Col-2}} and likewise. Debankan ^talk 08:57, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

ISL and ISL playoffs

In summary it's written that that till now the club has won the top league 6 times that includes ISL title. So again why repeatedly it's written that the club has also won several other trophies including ISL playoffs. So @Mohunbagani ! Why are you writing a same trophy twice? @Drat8sub please come here, Only you can stop him. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 13:06, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I have fixed it now. Regarding this issue, I am pasting my most recent comment which you may have missed:

When ISL is changing its own history, who are we to oppose that? We are just record keepers. Mumbai City wearing the "Champions" badge means Mumbai City are the Champions of 2022-23. Please close this topic. I had accepted your point back then, but now the situation has changed. Mohunbagani (talk) 18:29, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Where AIFF and FSDL officially mentioned that Mumbai City will wear champions badge? If any changes are made then it will affect following seasons. Please wait till start of 2023-24. History can't be changed. As per 2022-23 ISL rules Mumbai City are the ISL league premiers and ATKMB are the champions. History can't be changed SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 18:58, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

A verified journalist has explicitly published the changes made by ISL, if that's not sufficient then I don't else can be enough to prove it. Even last time I raised this issue and backed Mohunbagani's statements about considering the league winners as the national champions, until he changed his stand because there wasn't any third-party proof to back it, but now, its published by top news media in the country. Debankan ^talk 21:22, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Last time more authority person @Drat8sub came as the concluder. But this time things have been changed. This time a tweet of Marcus Margulho changed this matter. Ok I will wait till start of the season 10. Let's see what happened. I have never heard after competition of tournament the champions are changed SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 02:11, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

The day ISL will publish, Mumbai City is the 2022-23 ISL Champion that day wikipedia will show the same. We are not here for original research and synthesis. Drat8sub (talk) 13:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@Drat8sub thanks for your edits. But I'll be happy if you talk about this matter here to convince @Debankan Mullick and @Debankan Mullick. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 11:51, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

There is no need to convince anyone here, if someone align consistently with IDHT, then they will end up like what happened with Dollarsign14. And kindly don't open thread after thread to convince a same person. Rather report if disruptive edits were done. Drat8sub (talk) 12:12, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

You might be an authoritative person, but all of us here are working in a collaborative manner. Last time we accepted @SAIKAT MARINERS DEY's position, this time he accepted our position for the time being and waited for your response. So it was expected that you would build a consensus here first, then edit the page if required. Do what you want now, but anyway you will have to revert two months later, when this will become official. I will leave that to you. Mohunbagani (talk) 13:55, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, and I will love to write Mumbai as champion and Mohun Bagan as play-off winners, I will love to write today itself if such is announced. That's why I've addressed the guidelines IDHT, you are not listening, wikipedia is not a social media website, here things are added only when things happen and announced, not before that. First, kindly listen what I've mentioned. Did I've ever mention in any of my comments that it will not be added if ISL announce Mumbai as champion ? My advice would be kindly have the patience to listen before react. Drat8sub (talk) 14:15, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mohunbagani, where I have said that I have accepted your position? I was alone but you had a supportive member so I didn't edit further and called Drat8sub sir SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 14:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Cool down everyone, we no need to fight each other. Just wait for ISL to announce Mumbai as Champion, if that's really is the case. Drat8sub (talk) 14:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@SAIKAT MARINERS DEY I said, "for the time being". Mohunbagani (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I have stopped making any edit related to it, since it came to a power struggle rather than reaching a consensus. Debankan ^talk 15:21, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Split football club August 2023

I propose that the section about Mohun Bagan AC be split into a separate page called Mohun Bagan SG. A general sports club history could be added to this article, and links to the new football page would be added there. This section is large and well-sourced enough to make its own page.

Pinging @Joseph2302 and KadenIN: on the basis of our earlier discussion here. – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 07:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support – Per the reasons given above. আকাশ নাথ সরকার (talk) 10:22, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Oppose — First of all, the name is Mohun Bagan Super Giant. Now coming to your proposal, no, that should not be done, because this page is about the football division anyway. Cricket and hockey already have separate pages, and this page deals primarily with our football division. Mohunbagani (talk) 10:26, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Assuming your point is that the Mohun Bagan AC article is mainly about football division. If that is the case then the Mohun Bagan AC article should be renamed to Mohun Bagan Super Giant. Because we all know that the football division of Mohun Bagan AC is officially known as Mohun Bagan Super Giant. আকাশ নাথ সরকার (talk) 10:31, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

The football division of Mohun Bagan AC is currently known as Mohun Bagan Super Giant for branding purpose. The branding keeps changing, but we should not change the name of the Wikipedia page every time for that reason. That is not the standard practice. To ascertain this, you can refer to KK Crvena zvezda, Ligue 1 and Camp Nou among many other examples of brand names not being included in the title of the page. I think we can change the name to Mohun Bagan AC (football) if others agree, but for that we have to revise the page a little bit here and there. Mohunbagani (talk) 19:35, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that too can be done if everyone agrees. আকাশ নাথ সরকার (talk) 06:44, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

It is NOT a branding change. It is a completely separate legal entity that was formed by the merger of ATK Football Club and the football division of Mohun Bagan. Both companies have shares in MBSG but Mohun Bagan and MBSG are not the same. It is a completely separate Football Club that was founded in 2020 and carries forward the heritage of both ATK and Mohun Bagan by default. Having it be the same as Mohun Bagan is discrediting the contributions of the other irrespective of how glamorous they are compared to the bigger club. Thus if it is indeed a page about Mohun Bagan's football division, it should be moved to "Mohun Bagan Super Giant FC" and a section about ATK FC should be properly added. In addition a separate page can be created that is about the now defunct original football division of Mohun Bagan which was started in 1889. KadenIN (talk) 15:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Pasting my comment from below:

I would suggest that you first educate yourself before trying to determine whether I am speaking from emotion or something else. Mohun Bagan SG clearly says that it carries forward the legacy of Mohun Bagan, and only Mohun Bagan. I have given the link to a letter above, where it is clearly mentioned that ATK was disaffiliated and ATKMB was continuing with the affiliation of Mohun Bagan AC. Probably you did not read it thoroughly. In the tent of Mohun Bagan AC, in the Champions' plaque, the ISL trophy has been mentioned. But, nobody has ever claimed ATK's trophies to be ATKMB's trophies, or vice versa. You must come up with proper evidence before claiming something like "Mohun Bagan got dissolved". Clearly you know very little on this topic, so better educate yourself first. MBSG is a "completely different entity" as much as MMBFC was a "completely different entity".

Therefore, ATK should have its own page, like it already has, and no section of any Mohun Bagan page should be devoted to ATK. Mohunbagani (talk) 18:00, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

@KadenIN See the updated bio in Mohun Bagan super giant Facebook page. Then you talk SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 17:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• The proposed name has been corrected and secondly, separate football article is the standard for multi-sports clubs, Indian sports clubs shouldn't be treated separate to multi-sports clubs in other countries and should follow the global standards. – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 10:41, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Mohun Bagan AC has a separate football article, and that is this article itself. Other than a brief mention of the fact that this is a multi-sports club, and the links to the other divisions of the club, the entire article is devoted to football. Mohunbagani (talk) 10:52, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support same reasons as East Bengal club linked in the nomination. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:58, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

  Well I do not know about the East Bengal page, but this page is primarily about the football division itself. Other than a brief mention of the fact that this is a multi-sports club, and the links to the other divisions of the club, the entire article is devoted to football. Mohunbagani (talk) 11:39, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

  All in all, there might be a possibility the women's team will form (That should have a dedicated subpage), and a new academy might be coming (Should be added as part of Mohunbagan SAIL academy page)- But there's no point of having a dedicated page for Mohunbagan SG - Since according to that logic McDowell Mohunbagan Pvt Ltd, ATK Mohunbagan should also have different pages ( Which will create nothing but more confusion ). My suggestion would be adding an article inside the page about 'Remove ATK' - since it displays the importance of club legacy along with our history. However painful and controversial it is, this needs addressing from an objective stand point as well.

  Also from an SEO - Perspective splitting on page in multiples effect the ranking. ATK (football club) 's wikipedia page suggests that it was merged with Mohun Bagan AC (not ATK Mohunbagan/ Mohunbagan SG ) so I am not sure why are we still arguing about splitting the wikipedia page. Soham1905 (talk) 07:27, 9 August 2023 (UTC)— Soham1905 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  Search engine optimisation is not a valid reason for opposing this split. Each section of this club should have a separate article if they are notable enough, and the football team is clearly notable enough for a separate article. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:26, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Requesting @SAIKAT MARINERS DEY @Drat8sub @Debankan @Ramit.mukherjee.1994 @IAmPushpak @Ztruc to participate.

Also requesting everyone to refer to this discussion. Mohunbagani (talk) 12:04, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: I oppose splitting the page, and rather support renaming the page to Mohun Bagan AC (football). If a split is done, then the general club page wouldn't have any significant content to consider making a page in the first place, cause the club's majority of the history lies in its football department, so most of the article would have copied or similar texts to what there will be in the football team's page. The other departments aren't of major significance that it'd contribute to the page's contents. The current page is more than 99% about its footballing activities, with only a few lines about its multi-sports ventures. To remove confusion, if they even exist, then I prefer the current page to be renamed as per Mohunbagani's suggestions. Debankan ^talk 10:55, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• All the distinguished editors are humbly requested to refer to this discussion as well. – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 13:22, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Let's wait what happens in East Bengal page. SAIKAT MARINERS DEY (talk) 14:27, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support: This page is completely biased. It does not even mention about the merger of the club with ATK. It is written like that ATK never existed. 202.164.138.150 (talk) 08:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  You should read the Mohun_Bagan_AC#History section thoroughly. What actually happened has been properly recorded there. Merger never happened, so naturally that has not been mentioned. ATK did exist till 2020, and it has a separate page. Mohunbagani (talk) 08:43, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  If ATK never merged with Mohun Bagan, why these sources are saying so. [5], [6] 202.164.138.150 (talk) 09:34, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  It was the official version given back then. But later, through various steps, it was established that this is just the football division of Mohun Bagan, and not any merged entity. Case in point: they don't carry the records of ATK, they say they are carrying forward the legacy of Mohun Bagan only, and then they have removed ATK from the name also, because it was alluding to a merger. Mohunbagani (talk) 10:13, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Mohunbagani I guess you're the one who need to read the history section more thoroughly. Click here and read the last paragraph of that perticular sub-section. – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 09:40, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, what is the issue with that paragraph? Mohunbagani (talk) 10:08, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• @Drat8sub: Since you have deep knowledge of India's football history, I want to have your opinion on both the proposals because I have a feeling that you might clear things out more than anyone. Even I might learn something that I don't know as of now. So please, write your thoughts down here and there. It would be helpful for football enthusiasts like me. – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 09:28, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that I don't want to ruin our football history or culture. Regards! – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 09:31, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Mohun Bagan fans are being over emotional. Mohunbagani is saying that ATK never merged with Mohun Bagan. If ATK never merged with Mohun Bagan, why did they use the name ATK Mohun Bagan. Come on bro. Never use your heart to think. Don't mix up your emotions over facts. The infobox and opening section of the page did not had any of these facts. So I have included that.

fan 202.164.138.150 (talk) 09:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

ATK was used as a brand name associated with the new investors. Now they have changed that brand name precisely so that people do not take this to be a merger. Before changing anything in the infobox, you have to explain why Mohun Bagan Super Giant does not carry the records of ATK. I will wait. Mohunbagani (talk) 10:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Your points are relevant. – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 10:26, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

ATK was only removed because the Mohun Bagan fans continuously protested. The merged do happened in 2020. In 2023, it was announced that ATK has dissolved. So this should reflect in the history. 202.164.138.150 (talk) 12:38, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

No. ATK was dissolved in 2020 itself. Check this.

Btw, please explain why ATK Mohun Bagan too did not carry the records of ATK.

If you add anything again without reaching a consensus in the talk page first, I will report you for vandalism.Mohunbagani (talk) 12:59, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

You're mentioning them not carrying over ATK's records over and again but I'm sorry to inform you that they didn't carry forward Mohun Bagan's records either. They legally cannot. They may claim to but it is not legally possible as Mohun Bagan was a completely separate entity that got dissolved (the football division that is). I do understand that you're very much emotionally connected to your mother club but when it comes to editing fact sources it is important to think with your brain and not your heart. Mohun Bagan got merged with ATK and that's a fact and it needs to be properly mentioned. The new club doesn't have the be the same as the old legal entity for you to have any আবেগ. This is a page about the newer club that got founded in 2020 and 1889. The 1889 division was dissolved in 2020 ending their record and legacy. A new era has started and it is not to be undermined either. KadenIN (talk) 15:24, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I would suggest that you first educate yourself before trying to determine whether I am speaking from emotion or something else. Mohun Bagan SG clearly says that it carries forward the legacy of Mohun Bagan, and only Mohun Bagan. I have given the link to a letter above, where it is clearly mentioned that ATK was disaffiliated and ATKMB was continuing with the affiliation of Mohun Bagan AC. Probably you did not read it thoroughly. In the tent of Mohun Bagan AC, in the Champions' plaque, the ISL trophy has been mentioned. But, nobody has ever claimed ATK's trophies to be ATKMB's trophies, or vice versa. You must come up with proper evidence before claiming something like "Mohun Bagan got dissolved". Clearly you know very little on this topic, so better educate yourself first. MBSG is a "completely different entity" as much as MMBFC was a "completely different entity". Mohunbagani (talk) 17:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

You don't even know the meaning of vandalism. I have done no vandalism. The discussion is still going on. There is no consensus yet. So I'm allowed to add the content till a consensus has been reached. I only want the details to be correct. So I have added the details back 202.164.138.150 (talk) 19:29, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Only one who has given official references (not news articles) here is me, not you. So much for wanting the details to be correct. I will keep reverting until you give a good answer to my simple question. Mohunbagani (talk) 19:42, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment from Drat8sub: Since, both the articles are about multi–sports clubs, and both have sub–articles of other sport department already, it's very much acceptable to split the articles to have separate articles only for football entity, i.e,

1. Mohun Bagan SG

2. East Bengal FC

But only if these can be done, otherwise these splits have no meaning. Here are my suggestions so that the no confusion occurs while splitting. The mother clubs, Mohun Bagan AC & East Bengal Club articles to be summarized with good lead, the present lede is 90 percent about football. So, the lede must be about all sports and sub-section must be of different sports in summarised way, including only specific and important facts.

For Mohun Bagan AC & East Bengal Club

1. Lede ,
2. History (creation, formation, development, sponsorship deals etc and etc) 2.1. Ownership & Management ,
3. Departments includes(whichever available with source & only summarised) 3.1. Football 3.1.1. Youth Football 3.2. Hockey 3.3. Cricket 3.3.1. Women's cricket, 3.4. Tennis , 3.5. Esports etc.
4. Club image includes 4.1. Crest and colour 4.2. Stadium(all sports) 4.3. Supporter 4.4. Rivalry in different sports (if available) ,
5. Honours 5.1. Records (only specific honours and records in all sports)
6. Mohun Bagan Day 6.1. Campaign 6.2. Mohun Bagan Ratna (only for MohunBagan article for East Bengal will different)

7. Legacy and popular culture (includes arts, culture, filmgraphy, social impact, impact in sports etc.)

For Mohun Bagan SG

1. Lede ,

2. History 2.1 Formation and early years 2.2. 1910s-1930s 2.3. 1940s-1970s 2.4. 1980s-1990s 2.5. 1990s-2000s 2.6. 2000S-2010s 2.7. 2010s-2020s 2.8. 2020-present (including sub sections like 1911 IFA shield, 1947 IFA shield, 1960 gold period, 1970 decline & revival under PKBanerjee etc)
3. Crest, colour and kits 3.1. Kit manufacturers and sponsors
4. Stadiums
5. Supporters
6. Rivalry
7. Ownerships and sponsorship naming
8. Current management 9. Coaching staff 10. Players 10.1. Notable players with stats 11. Season overview 12. Performance in AFC competitions 13. Honours

14. Legacy and popular culture (includes arts, culture, filmgraphy, social impact, impact in sports etc.)

Similarly, goes with East Bengal FC. If the splits are done with articles not structured properly then the same confusion will prevail between the two articles and discussion will be endless, which is going on for last 2 years. Hope this helps. Drat8sub (talk) 17:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose: per the arguments given at the East Bengal talk page and as mentioned by Akshadev below, I think there is no need of splitting the articles, since the articles were written as football club article initially and later on materials about other departments of the clubs has been added, that too the deptts. are not established and very little is written about them. Information and statistics about those department are very less and very less reliable source available to make a separate article. The articles don't need splitting but need re-structuring as proposed by other users earlier. As already mentioned FC Bayern Munich is an example.Drat8sub (talk) 05:31, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your detailed feedback. Honestly I do not think it will be possible to do this without any major overlaps. One alternative might be to reorient this page to represent the football division only and only. Mohunbagani (talk) 17:49, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, of course the articles have to be revamped, I can see lot of editorialization of sections and both the article needs copyedits, I can see pompous and unnecessary phrases and have to be structured well as I have mentioned above. Since, @Akshadev: you opened the discussion for split, I am sure you both will agree to make drafts for both the articles, and I can have a check and then split can be done easily. I could have done this but I am pre occupied with another project on which I'm working now, I can't afford to go through these clubs 100years of history right now. Thank you. You can ping me anytime. Drat8sub (talk) 18:21, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Sure thing! But only if we reach consensus on both of the proposal. And I too have a busy schedule (besides Wikipedia), so if it happens, then I'll be seeking your help again and again as I've never performed a split before. – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 01:43, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

• Strong support – Yes, I totally agree with this proposal. Jeet Dev^talk 19:17, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

@Drat8sub: Have a closer look at this edit summary, their point seems relevant to me. Both (Mohun Bagan and East Bengal) the clubs are football focused only, where other departments were introduced later and not all of them are on a fully-professional level. I think we should follow the FC Bayern Munich model rather than splitting both the clubs (to MBSG and EBFC). Please consider dropping your opinion right here and here! Regards. – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 04:19, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Agree, rather then splitting, restructuring of the articles needed keeping them as sports club. However, your comment at EB talk page does match with your suggestions here. You have cut you comment of oppose there, and here your suggestions are opposite, it's confusing, make it clear there at EB talk page. Drat8sub (talk) 05:46, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 06:09, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment I've reverted a premature close by Akshadev as this still needs further discussion to get a consensus. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:20, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

@Joseph2302: I get your point (about closing a discussion) but in case you didn't read my comment above, then let me tell you that my one and clear point is that we can stick with the Bayern Munich model (for both Mohun Bagan and East Bengal). Bayern Munich is also a multi-sports club and is a good article so it makes sense that we can do some modifications at this article and at EBFC, instead of splitting them. I'd also (humbly) like to add that you need to think less about a user or two, as you accused me and Drat8sub being a tag team and threatened us of WP:ANI (on my talk page). Mistakes happen but it does not mean that you will start blaming people right away without proper research. I would also like to let you know that I am not interested in tag teams. – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 09:25, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:OSE, I personally believe that FC Bayern Munich is a sensible candidate for splitting too. Also, WP:OSE isn't a reason for copying it here, Real Madrid (disambiguation) for example have them split out, and the football article Real Madrid CF is a GA too. And most other sports clubs in other countries have split articles too. So whether a split is appropriate here should be determined by weight of argument and consensus. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:19, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose (Withdrawn) – Courtesy: @ArnabSaha and Sinan 2004: As they pointed out that both the articles would get irrelevant. Because clubs like these are football focused only, where other departments were introduced later and not all of them are on a fully-professional level. We can follow the FC Bayern Munich model rather than splitting them out. – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 05:47, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  Additional comment – I pinged both of these users due to their advice (See this and this). – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 18:24, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I have posted at WT:SPORTS and WT:FOOTY to see if we can get more editors on this, to try and establish a consensus. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:23, 20 August 2023 (UTC)