Talk:Little Brown Jug (college football trophy)

Little brown jug link

If you search for Little Brown Jug, you get sent to an article about a harness race. I think the football trophy (the grandfather of all rivalry trophies) should be the primary link, or at least lead to a disambiguation page.--RLent 19:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

go blue! __earth ^(Talk) 10:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

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table

The Little Brown Jug

Michigan (64)	Minnesota (22)
1909 1910 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1926 1929 1930 1931 1932 1943 1944 1945 1946 1947 1948 1949 1951 1952 1954 1955 1957 1958 1959 1964 1966 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1978 1979 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 2001 2002 2003 2004 2006	1919 1927 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1953 1956 1960 1961 1962 1963 1965 1967 1977 1986 2005
Ties (3)
1903 1933 1950

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Oldest Continuous Rivalry

The oldest continuous college football rivalry is between Lehigh and Lafayette (uninterupted since 1897). This predates both claims of the Little Brown Jug and Territorial Cup. The Lehigh-Lafayette doesn't have a trophy, but is still an older rivalry ... this article should be updated to reflect this. Jrssr5 19:44, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, its the oldest "trophy game", I've readded some of the clarification language, tightened the prose, and noted that it isn't necessarily the "oldest rivalry".—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobak (talk • contribs)

Great, thanks, I tried a little cleaning up, but didn't want to go overboard. Jrssr5 21:16, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention as far as I know this is hardly "continuous"-- the two UMs don't even play each other in 2009 and '10. Some rivalry. Lmeister (talk) 16:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

And although the Territorial cup may be an older trophy, it disappeared after the 1899 game and did not reappear until the 1980s and was not exchanged until 2001. Group29 (talk) 13:56, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Composition

In the article, and in the University of Minnesota media guide, the jug is listed as "earthenware", and may actually be a a piece of "stoneware" crockery from Red Wing Pottery. Anyone have access to the Red Wing Collector's Society article on the Little Brown Jug? This might explain why it has held up for more than 100 years without any recorded breakings. Group29 (talk) 14:13, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

It's definitely made of stoneware, but some folks will argue that stoneware is a subclass of earthenware. On the issue of whether the jug survived, it's a interesting question and explored in detail here Little Brown Jug Lore VI: Is the Greatest Trophy in College Football a Fake?. On a few occasions Oscar Munson claimed it was damaged (handle broken) and in the 1960s before he died claimed it was replaced. I've tried, but I can't find any source or evidence that backs up Munson's claim beyond a reference in the Minnesota Daily that the jug was repaired in the early 1920s.

Speaking of composition, the photo of the jug in the display case is a replica. Gregdooley (talk) 21:08, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Theft

Something on the jug's theft from Michigan's campus in I believe the 1940s and subsequent return and identification by a flaw would be nice.

Re: "the theft", Here's a good place to start. It has a blow by blow of what happened between 1931 and 1933 when the jug was missing Gregdooley (talk) 22:49, 6 May 2013 (UTC)gregdooley

University of Michigan Project

University of Michigan is not represented with a project at Category:WikiProject Universities. Please comment at Talk:University_of_Michigan#Should_University_of_Michigan_have_a_project.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:10, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 22:45, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Little Brown Jug (American football) → Michigan–Minnesota football rivalry – This page talks about the rivalry and shows the entire history of it, so therefore it should be moved to this title. 71.211.193.144 (talk) 02:04, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

This article was moved from Little Brown Jug (American football) to Michigan–Minnesota football rivalry after an IP user requested the move and no discussion followed. The title should be reverted at this time. This series is commonly know at the "Little Brown Jug" game. It is not generally or commonly known as the Mich-Minn football rivalry. Further, the "Little Brown Jug" is one of the truly iconic and oldest (maybe the oldest) traveling trophies in the sport. Cbl62 (talk) 19:56, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support move - I support this proposed move per nominator Cbl62's stated rationale, provided appropriate redirects are created and maintained for Michigan–Minnesota football rivalry and Minnesota–Michigan football rivalry per the general rule for naming CFB rivalry articles. Please note that my support for this move expressly recognizes that this is an exception to the general rule, per the nominator, not an invitation to begin wholesale moves of CFB rivalry game articles to article titles based on the names of obscure rivalry trophies. Selah. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:06, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. The Jug makes this game, not the matchup. It hasn't been a competitive rivalry in decades and I suspect it would garner little attention each year if not for the 100+ year history of the oldest trophy in college sports, accompanied by its colorful backstory. It helps too that the teams had hardly begun playing one another before the trophy was introduced. This rivalry has been "The Little Brown Jug" game practically since the two teams came into existence. JohnInDC (talk) 20:25, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support move as the obvious WP:COMMONNAME, per Cbl62. Ejgreen77 (talk) 01:56, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support per nominator's reason. Corkythehornetfan | Chat? 02:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. Similarly with other college football rivalry games, descriptive names seem to be a common way of referring to this game. I find 1,520 Google Books hits for "Michigan-Minnesota game", 749 for "Michigan-Minnesota football", compared to 1700 for "Little Brown Jug" football. This is hardly overwhelming evidence that "Little Brown Jug" is better known, and additionally, a descriptive title will be much more recognizable to any reader than the name of the trophy. Additionally, as this isn't the primary topic of the base name Little Brown Jug, the current title avoids the parenthetical disambiguation per WP:NATURALDIS.--Cúchullain ^t/c 05:23, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

@Cuchullain: Cooch, as a general proposition, I agree with you about the naming of college sports rivalries, and we have closely aligned in the past regarding the naming of rivalry articles. In this particular case, however, I see an obvious exception to the general rule (as I noted in my comment above). Your Google Books statistics also bare closer examination. Here's some additional stats from Google Books searches, and a quick analysis thereof:

1. "Michigan-Minnesota game" - initially indicates 1,520 results, but only returns 25 actual results, usually indicating a huge number of duplicates or other search error; the top result is The Little Brown Jug: The Michigan-Minnesota Rivalry;

2. "Michigan-Minnesota football rivalry" - initially indicates 79 results, but only returns 17 actual results, only 4 or 5 of which appear to be about college football; the second result is The Little Brown Jug: The Michigan-Minnesota Rivalry, following the subject Wikipedia article;

3. "Michigan-Minnesota rivalry" - initially indicates 49 results, but only displays 12 actual results; top result The Little Brown Jug: The Michigan-Minnesota Rivalry;

4. "Gophers-Wolverines" - 7 results;

5. "'Little Brown Jug' + Wolverines" - initially indicates 688 results, but only returns 121 actual results, and virtually all are references to the CFB rivalry; and

6. "'Little Brown Jug' + Gophers" - initially indicates 542 results, but only displays 118 actual results.

After scrutiny of the Google Books stats, it appears "Little Brown Jug" is the best statistical result for Google Books name search for the rivalry. Additional variations on the search strings may yield somewhat different results, but reliance on raw "hit" numbers from Google Books (or any other unanalyzed internet search) can be problematic, as you know. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:09, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support move per arguments of Cbl62 and Dirtlawyer1. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

This requested move discussion has been open for almost three months, and there has been a clear consensus supporting the restoration of the original article title since February 1, 2015, with no further comments since then. In light of the circumstances, I have executed the requested move per the discussion above. The previous article title, Michigan–Minnesota football rivalry, which is also the standard title format for college football rivalry articles, now redirects to the present article title, Little Brown Jug (college football trophy). Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:28, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

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