Talk:Linkin Park

Fort Minor as Spin Off?

I noticed Fort Minor was added a spin off band in the Infobox of this article. I believe it's more of a side project than spin-off. The only main member of the project in Mike Shinoda. Joe Hahn from Linkin Park also appears in Fort Minor, but on one track. I'd be more inclined to consider them a spinoff if they had more Linkin Park band members in the project, akin to Zwan or Jefferson Starship. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  23:55, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with your point, but I feel like I see it done wrong so frequently that it's difficult to identify when it is appropriate... Sergecross73 msg me 00:04, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary invented criteria about numbers of band members is useless. Ultimately, we're gonna need reliable sources explicitly describing these acts as spin-offs, or else it's just one editor's subjective opinion against another, which are exercises in original research. Left guide (talk) 13:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that's kind of what they're getting at though - you'd probably be hard pressed to find reliable sources that describe essentially a side project as a "spinoff". Sergecross73 msg me 15:25, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Prior to May 2022, Infobox Musician would use the "Associated Acts" parameter, which actually had clear criteria/documentation in the template that dictated what bands were considered "associated acts", ie the number of shared members, joint-albums, or multiple collaborations.[1] This was was all changed in May 2022 after a discussion that resulted in the associated acts parameter being removed and replaced with spin offs/spin offs of.[2] Unlike the Associated Acts parameter, no formal documentation or criteria was ever created to determine what is actually considered a spinoff. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  01:46, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

I actually agree with the removal of the 'associated acts' parameter since that term doesn't seem widely-used by reliable sources; it opens the door to coatracking and needless disputes as evidenced by the template talk RfC you linked. For example, I Google-searched for sources directly stating that Jay-Z is an "associated act" of Linkin Park, and I could not find any. So how would that be handled for less black-and-white situations? Even if there's a local "consensus" about its requirements at the template talk, such requirements are still rooted in WP:OR and WP:SYNTH since it's a vague subjective term. "Side project" and "spin-off" seem to be widely-used by reliable sources, so those make for appropriate infobox parameters. We don't need formal documentation or criteria for spin-offs because like virtually everything else on Wikipedia, reliable sources are what determine what is actually considered a spin-off. Left guide (talk) 03:51, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Reliability of sources

Does this count as a reliable source? The end of the 9th paragraph says Matranga also contributed to tracks for the Deftones and Linkin Park hip-hop spinoff, Fort Minor. The publication looks like an independent local magazine, with the bottom of this page showing an editorial staff. As for Dead by Sunrise, I found this from The Telegraph which is paywalled, but shows the following quote on Google preview: Dead By Sunrise. A spin-off project that operated alongside Linkin Park, Dead By Sunrise was formed by Bennington in 2005 as a harder, more ... Are these sources reliable? Left guide (talk) 21:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC) pinging involved editors @Дисмод, GaterJuv, Bowling is life, Sergecross73, and StarScream1007:

@Left guide: Yeah those look like reliable sources. Bowling is life (talk) 22:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I still don't think it's a particularly common sentiment...but technically it seems like those sources would probably suffice. Sergecross73 msg me 22:47, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd agree with Serge, these meet the criteria for WP:RS, but I don't think it's a popular opinion that Dead by Sunrise or Fort Minor are spin offs on Linkin Park. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  01:32, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia simply follows what reliable sources say, not common sentiment or popular opinion. Left guide (talk) 03:51, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Not necessarily true. WP:UNDUE says articles should not focus on uncommon opinions or aspects of a topic compared to those that are more popular or well-supported. A further quote for the section, "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true, or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article." I know undue weight is geared towards removing fringe theories or unpopular beliefs, and does not necessarily apply to infobox templates. Can we find more reliable sources that say Dead by Sunrise and Fort Minor are spin-offs? Thanks, --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  14:51, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Eh, no, not quite - that's really only part of it. Reliable sources are merely the bare minimum to be considered for inclusion. We're still not required or compelled to include every single thing there's a source for. Things like WP:UNDUE or WP:FRINGE could still apply here, and things like WP:NOT and WP:INDISCRIMINATE, while not relevant here, can apply in other situations. Sergecross73 msg me 16:13, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Both of you make very valid points; I hadn't thought of this issue from the due weight angle. It's admittedly a bit difficult to find additional reliable sources that describe these acts as spin-offs, so maybe it's not a mainstream view. Technically it would satisfy WP:V and WP:RS which there seems to be agreement on here, but not necessarily WP:NPOV policy. On that note, I'm going to remove the remnants from the infobox. I appreciate the ongoing input. Left guide (talk) 02:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2024

Linkin Park is an American nu-metal band from Agoura Hills, California. 2409:40E0:48:5CE:ACA1:6DF9:FB1:9299 (talk) 15:14, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:17, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Band Name Origin

I remember very clearly reading an interview in a magazine that Mike said the name was chosen because, from their experience touring in years past, that almost every city or county they visited had a Lincoln Park of their own. According to Mike, their thinking was that people would think they were a local band and attend their shows. That's not to discredit the current description on the Wiki; it may very well be a combination of both, but I was obsessed with the band and remember that one fact very clearly from that interview. 73.56.238.183 (talk) 08:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Okay, well, we'd need to find a source before we could consider it for inclusion anywhere. Sergecross73 msg me 11:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Folks in the early 2000s assumed Linkin Park was a local band because "Lincoln Park" is a common name for parks or neighborhoods in cities. While the band acknowledged this misconception, they never claimed it was the origin on the band name.[3][4] --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  11:52, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

That actually makes a lot more sense too. Sergecross73 msg me 12:10, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Concern about recent content additions

Can we get some sort of explanation about how this content improves the article in a manner that is understandable and accessible for the average reader? It looks like it's the subject of an ongoing edit war so I'm choosing to tag and discuss to reach consensus rather than jump in with removal. Pinging those involved and some of the regulars. @StarScream1007, Sergecross73, Bowling is life, U-Mos, and 4TheWynne: Left guide (talk) 05:47, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't see an edit war or the reason for the tag you added to the article. Please can you explain further? U-Mos (talk) 07:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

The material lacks context. For example, what is the purpose of the supposed "countdown"? What exactly is this "text" that's glitching, and how is that important or relevant to the topic of this article? If there aren't reliable sources that put the events into context, in my opinion it should be removed from the article. Left guide (talk) 07:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

It's all reliably sourced (except a detail I've just removed). The countdown didn't lead to anything, so there's no further context to give. I don't see any issue. U-Mos (talk) 07:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't make any sense, but I'd blame the band and their marketing for that, not whoever wrote it. They just transcribed what happened - an unexplained countdown that lead to nothing, followed by another vague announcement. I imagine by the time they announce whatever it is that they're doing on September 5th, it can be trimmed back to something like "After a cryptic countdown campaign, the band announced _____". Sergecross73 msg me 13:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I'd agree it could be a little more cohesive and trimmed depending on what is announced on 9/5 as Serge suggested. I also found a RS from Forbes to confirm the timer did stop at 9:05 to tease the 9/5 announcement.[5] I'll be honest and say I thought the band was trolling fans when the timer started ticking up again on August 24. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  14:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide and @U-Mos - I trimmed back the section to include the relevant parts. It is a teaser for the band's new album "From Zero". If there's any ambiguity or anything important left out, please feel free to update the section. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  22:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 September 2024

Change Rob Bourdon to Colin Brittain under current members as he is the new drummer announced also as of September 5th 2024 2600:1700:91D0:D100:5E9:7CD3:E834:8389 (talk) 22:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ⸺(Random)staplers 23:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Bluelinking Colin Brittain

Ive noticed that Colin Brittain has been bluelinked - the Colin Brittain that the link directs to is not related to nor affiliated with Linkin Park. I have removed the links. Nightfury 22:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I've just googled some photos of the bluelinked Colin Brittain, and he looks a lot like the new guy in their promo photos. Are we positive about this? 184.153.42.65 (talk) 22:46, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I've never heard of Colin until now. But according to Variety, "Colin Brittain, a songwriter and producer for G Flip, Illenium and One OK Rock, will also join the group as a drummer." This seems to line up with Colin Brittain. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  22:48, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The statement that was added on the subject's page is not sourced. It is very much a dubious point until confirmed/properly sourced. Any news article can add info like that just because a small page on Wikipedia says that, what makes it slightly worse is the lack of photography of the subject on Wiki. Nightfury 22:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

@184.153.42.65, Nightfury, and StarScream1007: We need to be careful to avoid building a WP:FRANKENSTEIN article. Are we 100% sure that all of the sources and material refer to the same person? The Colin Brittain article itself is confusing and seemingly contradictory; the {{about}} hatnote atop that article implies they're two different people but there's content in the article implying it's the same person, which is correct? Left guide (talk) 23:05, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. I'm fine with waiting for a formal source from the band. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk   StarScream1007  ►Talk  23:08, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Emily should be added to the introduction

After mentioning Chester's death it should also add in a section explaining that "in 2024, Linkin Park introduced Emily Armstrong as the band's new lead singer" I believe it's important to include that since it's also current and relevant. 2603:6011:8000:8A30:5D83:7A2D:3836:71E4 (talk) 01:47, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

@2603:6011:8000:8A30:5D83:7A2D:3836:71E4: Emily Armstrong is already mentioned in the introduction. Bowling is life (talk) 02:02, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

She wasn’t added until after I mentioned it. 2603:6011:8000:8A30:3088:9C3F:2B47:3FCE (talk) 03:29, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Feder in touring members list

There's no indication that Alex Feder will be appearing with the band at any point other than yesterday's announcement show, so he doesn't qualify as a touring member of the band. Can we therefore please agree to remove him from the list? He is already mentioned as part of the relevant history section. U-Mos (talk) 12:19, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Unless anyone supplies a reliable source saying otherwise, 100% agree. Not every person who ever shows up in stage is necessarily a "touring member". Sergecross73 msg me 13:35, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Brad Delson confirmed on Instagram he is stepping away from touring and Alex will be taking his place full time. Brad will continue to be apart of the bands studio sessions and work in the background. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.59.186.94 (talk) 19:19, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this has since been addressed. Sergecross73 msg me 19:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Use of the word 'suicide' in the introduction

Just going to cut to the chase: it's probably a touch insensitive to hit an unfamiliar reader with 'suicide' right in the intro. As someone who is aware of what happened, I personally found it jarring. Certainly it needs to be talked about; the intro is likely not the place for it. Can it be replaced with 'death' instead? Cardinalsinistar (talk) 14:10, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

No, Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED. It'd be one thing if its use was particularly graphic or something, but simple usage of the word is fine. Sergecross73 msg me 14:16, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I do not see it in the intro, only the body text? Regardless, see Wikipedia is not censored. -- NotCharizard ^🗨 14:17, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I jumped in and removed it as I thought this was uncontroversial. Chester's cause of death is noted in the article so it's not a censorship matter. U-Mos (talk) 14:25, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

All the same, there's no encyclopedic reason to remove it from the intro. Sergecross73 msg me 14:26, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

It was removed. I've restored it per the WP:BRD process. Sergecross73 msg me 14:26, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest mentions of Chester's suicide remain prominent, especially because an Scientologist (by definition a person who doesn't believe in mental health professionals) has joined the band. Scientologists will flock to this page to tone down mentions of the fact.Handmeanotherbagofthemchips (talk) 21:56, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Hadn't considered that. Doesn't matter anymore, I guess. Seems as though people are invoking a policy about speaking boldly. Cardinalsinistar (talk) 00:01, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello! I'm just going to propose a compromise: I think "death by suicide" would be a slightly more sensitive formula to include in the lead section, as per what Mike Shinoda's wife, Anna, had suggested while trying to process that tragic event. Oltrepier (talk) 10:05, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I really like this. I think this is an excellent idea. It allows for sensitivity while not shying away from the subject. Cardinalsinistar (talk) 16:02, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I have no problem with that wording either. Sergecross73 msg me 16:21, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Xero 818

@N-Devil: Please don't add "Xero 818" as a known-as again. They never renamed, they just add the number because other bands in the area also called themselves Xero. Brad even says so in the interview you linked. It's not a name change like Hybrid Theory to Linkin Park. This is also evident by later shows just showing the name "Xero" again. It's the same as Slipknot calling themselves "Pygsystem" for two shows. Seelentau (talk) 22:48, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Actually it WAS a name change to avoid confusion with other bands named "Xero".

It's the same case for the "blink" changed name to "blink-182" to avoid confusion with other band called "Blink".

Brad Delson confirmed this/explained in Kerrang interview: "so we called ourselves Xero 818, like when you can’t get the Gmail account you want, [so] you just put a number… That’s what bands were doing at the time."

And also please see all concert posters, etc from that period - they say "Xero 818" on it, for example: https://linkinpedia.com/wiki/Live:19980620#/media/File:19980620_1.jpg + https://linkinpedia.com/wiki/Live:19981010#/media/File:19981010_1.png

-

Also, they RELEASED a DAT demo tape under "Xero 818" name - after releasing two tapes as just "Xero" - see:

https://i.ibb.co/1qmLNnm/oscbook-dreamer-and-weigt.png

It was confirmed in the "One Step Closer: From Xero to #1: Becoming Linkin Park" book by Jeff Blue, who was the band's music producer.

-

So we have official and legit sources and arguments - and I'm pretty sure that we need to add "Xero 818" - because it was the band's actual name change from just "Xero" - and before changing name to "Hybrid Theory" N-Devil (talk) 23:03, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I'd have to side with Seelentau. There only seemed to play a one or two shows using the Xero 818 moniker. Linkinpedia even lists them as Xero again for a poster promoting their October 10, 1998. Again, Linkinpedia is a fan-edited page that does not meet the RS policy. One Step Closer: From Xero to #1 only once references the band name Xero 818, on page 54, but refers to them as just Xero even after that. If there was a stronger evidence to show they played several shows that meets the reliable sources and user-generated policies, I'd be for adding it back to infobox, timeline, and prose. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  23:19, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, thank you firstly for not immediately reverting again. That said: It wasn't a name change for the sake of changing the name, it was just so they wouldn't get confused with other bands. Brad says so in that quote: "so we called ourselves Xero 818, like when you can’t get the Gmail account you want, [so] you just put a number" - if I can't get seelentau@email.com, adding an "818" doesn't mean that my name isn't seelentau anymore. Furthermore, they used Xero later on as you can see here (December 1998). So unless you're insinuating that they renamed from Xero to Xero 818 and back to Xero, it's not a name change like Hybrid Theory to Linkin Park, but just a temporary addendum that they stopped using after a couple of months. And again: Even assuming this was an actual name change, they were not known by it, similar to Slipknot wasn't known as "Meld", even though that was their first band name. "Xero" and "Hybrid Theory" are pretty well-known names the band has had, and they're the two names the band mentions when they speak about their past. They're also the two names they professionally released something under, whereas that DAT tape is not a finished release, it's an internal copy. It doesn't even have a proper inlay paper or cover. Seelentau (talk) 23:23, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's particularly worth noting. They have a long successful career as Linkin Park. A very short portion of their career, a different lineup may have used the name, and had virtually no success with it. It's an inconsequential part of their career. Sergecross73 msg me 00:11, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Contested material

@Handmeanotherbagofthemchips: please don't continue restoring this material to the article as there is clearly no consensus for its inclusion. Instead discuss here, thank you. cc @StarScream1007: Left guide (talk) 23:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

@StarScream1007: @Left guide: I personally think the allegations against Armstrong and the controversy around them should be mentioned.

First of all, i disagree that they should only be mentioned in her own page and not here, because the controversy is not only about her, but the band in general, considering the implications below.

If the allegations are true (which i really do think they are, considering the overwhelming evidence), then the band has admitted a member who is openly anti-mental health and supportive of sexual abuse (if you're wondering, these are beliefs that scientology members have by default). Now, while there are many artists who have controversial opinions but don't get as much flak, in this particular case it is different: Chester was both sexually abused and committed suicide (double whammy!). You can already see the hypocrisy, and why so many have taken note. This has also appeared to have taken traction on the internet (so not isolated hearsay); thus, notability is established.

As has happened with Armstrong's own article, as well as in other unrelated places (notably Linkin Park's own subreddit), scientology members are already trying to sensor any criticism. So, i suggest we stay vigilant.

As such, i believe the information is more than warranted to stay; the longer it is left out, the longer Armstrong's frankly disgusting actions will evade casual excited fans, and scientology will gain another unfortunate foothold in the entertainment industry.Handmeanotherbagofthemchips (talk) 23:52, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I would consider supporting the inclusion of this into the article so long as it was written within the context "Cedric Bixler-Zavala criticized Linkin Park for selecting Armstrong due too…" rather than something that is ambiguously worded. I'm honestly going to say we should give it time and see what the reaction is by other reliable sources from journalists and artists, and if they publish critical views against the band for collaboration with Armstrong to determine if it merits inclusion in this article. As it stands now, sources are just republishing Cedric's IG post. This comes down to Due Weight or how much of the criticism target Linkin Park vs Armstrong. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  00:47, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

@StarScream1007 You kinda have a point. The reaction of major sources is surprisingly lacklustre (puts on tinfoil hat...)

Still, i do believe the inclusion of whatever we have now is more than enough; as i said in my previous comment, at least a mention of this is important, because the marketing team's (cough cough) tactics will be to quickly overrun any mention of Armstorng's wrongdoings before it starts spreading with readers (i think we are already kinda late...). And, while i kinda disagree with your proposed intro, for the sake of expedition, i am willing to include it.

So, do you agree with this? Handmeanotherbagofthemchips (talk) 01:11, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

For right now, no. The content was restored at least on Armstrong's article. I feel as more media outlets cover it and the story is shared on social media, we'll have a better idea of how this story plays out. I get this is a bad look for Linkin Park potentially, but once more sources and reactions are out there, we can properly determine the weight of what particular sources and claims should be added. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  01:32, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

This is being covered by reliable sources in direct connection to Armstrong's entry into Linkin Park, so it is unconstructive to remove it. I've added the most recent information (Armstrong's response) to the history section.

Obviously these are big and emotive subjects, so to be clear: we cannot draw connections between circumstances ourselves. No reliable source I have seen has discussed Chester's history in connection to this, or indeed stated that Armstrong is herself a Scientologist. It is also not our responsibility to inform fans of a controversy. We simply follow what reliable sources deem to be notable. U-Mos (talk) 09:12, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Chester in "Past Members", and alternatives

Some fans have pointed out that Chester never technically left Linkin Park, and feel strongly about keeping him in the Members section. However, it would obviously be confusing to keep that there without any indication of why he's no longer active.

I propose two possible alternatives:

1. Chester is listed in Members, but with (deceased) next to his name.

2. A third section is created called "Inactive Members" and his name is added to that. 2607:FEA8:4C83:8100:A06D:6B52:AE27:AAFF (talk) 00:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Dead members are considered ex-members by Wikipedia standards. This topic was last discussed earlier this year, when the bassist of The Gazette passed away, and fans were very vocal about him not being a past member, since he technically never left. But being a member of a band implies being active in this band in some form, which a dead person obviously can't be. You can look at literally all other bands with dead members, would you want to change all of these just because some fans are too invested in their parasocial relationships? Seelentau (talk) 00:08, 7 September 2024 (UTC)