Talk:L'Arc-en-Ciel

Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:38, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

L'Arc-en-Ciel → L'Arc~en~Ciel

Per discussion above Talk:L'Arc-en-Ciel/Archive 1#The name of the band. This title should be used in each article where it is mentioned as the official: L'Arc-en-Ciel discography → L'Arc~en~Ciel discography, The Best of L'Arc-en-Ciel 1994–1998 → The Best of L'Arc~en~Ciel 1994–1998, Dune (L'Arc-en-Ciel album) → Dune (L'Arc~en~Ciel album), etc.
Also, Cyrus XIII (talk · contribs) should have powerful arguments for his actions, because 1) he did not make a topic for discuss it before that mass renamings, but it was his responsibility to give reasonable grounds for such non-obvious renaming 2) and he could explain why he started this "crusade" against tildes in the titles. — Al3xil ✉ 23:58, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose rename/move. The manual of style should take precedent with the titles of articles. There are various uses of both "L'Arc-en-ciel" and "L'Arc~en~Ciel" by the band itself on album covers, websites, etc., that "L'Arc~en~Ciel" is it not an exception to the guidelines. If the band was more consistent with its band name usage, then I could see the argument. From WP:MOSTM: Avoid using special characters that are not pronounced, are included purely for decoration, or simply substitute for English words (e.g., ♥ used for "love"). oncamera^(t) 01:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Tilde (~) is not a "special character for decoration". Look at the {{Keyboard}}, if you can not see it on your keyboard. And if ~ does not accepted why there is Natsu no Yuutsu ~Time to Say Goodbye~ and Shinshoku ~Lose Control~, double standard? And URLs does not used titles. — Al3xil ✉ 01:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Look at the article for ~ and Japanese punctuation. In Japanese, the wave dash is also used to separate a title and a subtitle in the same line, as a colon is used in English and To mark subtitles: 〜概要〜. The ~ is being used in place of a colon or as a subtitle in the case of the song titles. That is not the case with the band name; it is being used for decoration reasons. oncamera^(t) 02:33, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose as the tilde is just used for decoration. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:06, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose per MOS:TM 70.29.211.138 (talk) 05:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, the tilde is often used for decoration, but no always. Also it's there official name. the tilde is in standard English keyboards and it's used for many other things other than just spacing. Either way the official name is with the tilde,

oncamera:as i said before, the name with the tildes are it's official name and they are most commonly known as such. URL addresses do not count because hey do not use tildes.

Nihonjoe: just read what i said to oncamera

and mysterious IP user: MOS:TM hardly takes any affect. only due to punctuation, capitalization (which is the same as punctuation) and formatting. no formating is needed, and the word is in french and this isnt a trademark product, it's aname of a band.

There is absolutely nothin wrong with making L'Arc~en~ciel the official title and L'Arc-en-ciel as a redirect.Bread Ninja (talk) 19:56, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. See also WP:OFFICIAL. Also, you lose a WikiLife for the "not a trademark" argument. 81.111.114.131 (talk) 23:48, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:OFFICIAL only comes in when the naming conventions wasn't enough, either way, they asked for "Common name" which is L'Arc~en~ciel and WP:OFFICIAL barely says anything. And what i meant to say about trademark, was that it's more of a band name than a trademark name, it's not like an iPod or eBay, it's a name for a group of people. I don't know what "WikiLife" is, but since your just a mysterious IP user, I'm not going to take it seriously.

Also WP:OFFICIAL seems to hint official names that are in an other language and not on just official names in general. L'Arc~en~ciel is most commonly known as L'Arc~en~ciel, almost everyone spells it like so even in English, and the name has no foreign characters, all of them are standard English keys.

In order to use WP:OFFICIAL we must also go by WP:COMMONNAME and that ask we find references to what alternative name there is. and of course URL does not count.Bread Ninja (talk) 16:41, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm confused. Exactly what part of "Wikipedia does not care about the official name of anything" don't you understand? 81.111.114.131 (talk) 23:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Regarding Name change

Mysterious IP user, please make yourself a User so ic an take you seriously, also the article is being collaborated, we can't go any further, also the article asks for the most common name. Also, you're not confused, your simply being stubborn. though, that is the most BS i heard in a while, i will try to talk to admins and such to see if this essay is really worth being a nut shell since it is contradicting WP:OFFICIALNAME that teaches us how to use official name..Bread Ninja (talk) 20:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

L'Arc~en~Ciel shows up 6,220,000 times in Google

L'Arc-en-Ciel shows up 4,280,000 times in google. there's no question about it, there's no way to transliterated and the most common name is the one with the tildes. Even if it wasnt the official name, it's still the most common name.Bread Ninja (talk) 20:28, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:GOOGLETEST can't be used as the basis for this kind of argument. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:51, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I've seen it a few times and the argument won for this specific type. plus, i read WP:GOOGLETEST, couldn't find whatever was against what i said. Still, the name with the (-) needs to be verified before even placing it. Even if they met consensus, that would have been done first before actually making the change. Bread Ninja (talk) 15:38, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

This is purely a punctuation issue, and WP:COMMON doesn't apply. This is the same sort of issue as FunKy CaPitaLIzatiOn. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:02, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

If it's trully a punctuation issue, than please verify it. otherwise it's considered Original Research. and if it was a punctuation issue the article should have been rewritten aswell.

EDIT:also funky capitalization is also known as hacker caps. but again, tildes and dashes are two different charactersBread Ninja (talk) 20:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

There's no need to verify this as it is a punctuation issue. There's no verification that can be done. Rehashing the same argument which failed to sway opinion in the move discussion above is not going to get you anywhere. Please drop the issue. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Don't act like it's a simple as you say. a punctuation issue is always important to be verified when it comes to these types of titles. i wont drop it, until you take it as seriously as i am. please prove that (~) are replacing (-). In other words, find a reliable source calling it "L'Arc-en-Ciel".

just like WP:COMMON. punctuation issue or not, which ever is the most common english title get's to be the actual title.Bread Ninja (talk) 15:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't care about the official names of things! Get over this; no one wants to keep telling you the same things over and over. This is about punctuation. MOS:TM oncamera^(t) 15:41, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not. because you guys clearly do not understand what I'm saying. Also, the quote where you got that was from an essay, it's not a wikipedia guide. Also, I'm not even basing this off if the name was official. that has nothing to do with it. L'Arc~en~Ciel is the most common name in english. If it truly is a "punctuation" issue, than please "verify" it. Pretty easy. it's all I'm asking. find a source and it can be kept. Don't know why you all are getting irritated so easily.

Punctuations issues like this are not as easy as you think. the tilde is a different character from the dash. you cannot simply say it's a punctuation issue without verifying it.

If it's not verified than it will count as original research. and other users who see this site will go through edit war. (I'm not threatening you that I will make an edit war, i'm warning you that others will do so)Bread Ninja (talk) 15:55, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

also, sorry for the misunderstanding nihonjoe. i meant WP:COMMONNAME.Bread Ninja (talk) 15:57, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

In "L'Arc~en~Ciel", the ~ are being used purely for decoration and improper use of the tilde in Japanese punctuation. Why do you keep saying to verify the use of the dash? The band itself has used it, i.e. Clicked Singles Best 13, Tierra etc. That's all there is to say, oncamera^(t) 16:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

thankyou so much, i didnt notice that. So now all there is needs to be done is fix the articles to say "L'Arc-en-Ciel". Just like the gazettE.Bread Ninja (talk) 16:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. I also archived the old stuff (2004-2009). ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:45, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This was already discussed recently (about five months ago, see the discussion above), and the consensus was to not move it per policy. See that discussion for more details. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 02:32, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

{{movereq|L'Arc~en~Ciel}}

L'Arc-en-Ciel → L'Arc~en~Ciel — Using dashes instead of tildes is spelling the band's name incorrectly. This may spread of misinformation and also defeats the point of the article being an accurate source of information. I can find nothing convincing in the Manual of Style or the previous arguments to warrant the current incorrect spelling. Ruby took (talk) 20:57, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I strongly agree with the requested move. L'Arc~en~Ciel is a proper name, and is not subject therefore to arbitrary judgments about whether or not it appropriately used the tilde. "[I]nstitutions, towns, colleges, families, companies and brands have authority over their own spelling and punctuation . . ." (Lynne Truss, "Eats Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation," pg. 57)

The most important evidence that L'Arc~en~Ciel is supposed to be spelled with a tilde comes from Tetsu's book, Tetsugaku (kindly translated by Nanani, found here http://dekiruhito.com/node/25.) In Chapter 34, "Osaka Era," Tetsu writes:

"The four of us got together, and we had to think of a name before we could start doing shows, so we used the name I came up with. I thought hard about whether a simple name would be best or not. At first, I tried to find a simple name, but I didn't find anything that worked. It's long, but seeing it written out has an impact that makes it memorable. That's part of why I thought L'Arc~en~Ciel was a good name. With brands of clothing, too, intricate names work because they're recognizable. I felt that L'Arc~en~Ciel was a long word to remember, but I thought that was all right. Written down, 'L'Arc~' jumps out at you, right? Because of the balance between the capitals and lowercase letters, and because of the ' ' ' and '~'."

Tetsu specifically chose to use tildes because he thought they made the band's name memorable and appealing. That his version of the name was used and continues to be used is apparent in the spelling of the band's name on their products.

All of L'Arc's albums, including the latest album, KISS, use tildes when spelling L'Arc~en~Ciel. Only the three compilations (Clicked Singles 13, Best of & Best of c/w) employ dashes instead. Moreover, the vast majority of their singles display a tilde instead of a dash (the only exceptions are Driver's High, Spirit Dreams Inside, and Stay Away (although this last one does use a tilde when spelling the band's name on the side of the CD.) The latest single, BLESS, spells the band's name with a tilde.

Concert DVDs follow the trend. All concert DVDs, save for "A Piece of Reincarnation," "Grand Cross Conclusion," and "Asialive" use the tilde. Concert DVDs which use the tilde include the latest DVD, "L'7 - Trans Asia Via Paris."

Between the band leader's own words and the spelling on packaging that supports them, there is no doubt that "L'Arc~en~Ciel" is the proper way to spell the band's name. That spelling should therefore be used in the Wikipedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alissakuduk (talk • contribs) 18:13, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

This has already been discussed and opposed. See the old request. The article already includes often styled as "L'Arc〜en〜Ciel" in the opening sentencing and that should suffice. The usage of the tilde is for decoration reasons only. oncamera^(t) 23:59, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Although the issue has already been discussed, I felt that the opposing arguments failed to take important information into account. The use of the tilde is not decorative (see above what Alissakuduk has quoted); it is, rather, the way it's spelled. I believe that the evidence she quotes from the article is sufficient enough to warrant a page move.

In regards to the opening of the article: "often" implies that the correct spelling includes dashes. While typeface restrictions occasionally necessitate dashes, tildes should be used when at all possible. If there is no reason preventing one from typing "L'Arc~en~Ciel" with tildes, it is not correct to replace the tildes with dashes. It is prudent to endeavor to be as correct as possible, and encyclopedic content is held to an even higher standard.

The Wikipedia article should be accurate; spelling the name with dashes is incorrect and will only spread the misspelling.

I have read arguments above along the lines of 'even the band has used the dash' and that 'it is used almost as often'. Yes, there have been occasions when they've printed material with dashes rather than tildes; however, approximately 95% of official published material spells "L'Arc~en~Ciel" with a tilde. The official website spells it with a tilde. The Sony Ki/oon website and Danger Crue website spell it with a tilde. At least twenty-three different publications in Japan have consistently spelled it with a tilde, including but not limited to:

Arena 37c

B-Pass

Band Yaroze

CD Data

Fool's Mate

Gigs

The Ichiban

J-Rock

Pati Pati

Pop Beat

Oricon Style

R&R Newsmaker

Rockin' f

Rockin on Japan

Rock It

Shoxx

Street Jack

Time Limit

Vicious

Weekly Oricon

Weekly Pia

What's In

Young Song

On television broadcasts it is almost always spelled with a tilde (I cannot claim to have seen every single television broadcast. However, I have seen at least fifty different broadcasts, none of which use a dash onscreen. These include:

AX Music TV

CDTV

FNS

Hey!Hey!Hey!

Hot Wave

Kouhaku (yearly)

Japan Broadcasting Awards (yearly)

Japan Record Award (yearly)

Love Love Aishiteru

M-Navi

Matthew's Best Hits

Mezamashi

Music Clique

Music Fighter

M-On

Music Japan

Music Park

Music Station

News & Countdown

P-Stock

PaPaPa Puffy

Pop File

Pop Jam

Pop Shake

Pussuma

Sound Mania

Sound Street

Utaban

Uta no Daijiten

Video Jam

Yokohama 16ers

Concert goods, photobooks, and their fan magazine spell "L'Arc~en~Ciel" with tildes as well. If you require photographic proof, I can provide screencaps or links to pictures.

In addition to the spelling argument, I will also point out that there is overwhelming evidence pointing to "L'Arc~en~Ciel" as the most common and recognizable form of the name, which I believe qualifies it to be the title of the article by Wikipedia rules as well.

For example, http://musicbrainz.org, a music tag/information database, lists L'Arc~en~Ciel as the correct tag/spelling, which is significant because it is the most widely used tagging database.

Ruby took (talk) 05:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

The tilde is decoration. Not a "correct" spelling. Also, see Wikipedia:Sock puppetry. oncamera^(t) 00:07, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Did you read anything I wrote? Or that Alissakuduk wrote? Because regardless of your opinion on how it should be spelled, "L'Arc~en~Ciel" is still the most common and well known form of the name, and therefore according to Wikipedia rules, should be used. I believe I have presented overwhelming evidence to support that "L'Arc~en~Ciel" is the most well-known form of the name.

As I have stated, the point of the article is to provide correct information and the misspelling is counter to this objective.

Wikipedia:Sock puppetry. That's a very charming argument to use when you don't want to actually respond to any points brought up; but I don't need to create more than one account to prove my point. I do know Alissakuduk, which is why she knew promptly about my request. I saw you use this same argument against someone in the last debate too, and I was in fact, expecting it. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I have one account, and it is this one. Try addressing one of my points, or better yet, try responding to Alissakuduk's quote from the band leader about the spelling. That in itself should warrant the move entirely on its own.

Ruby took (talk) 01:59, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Where did the band's name come from?

Anyone know? TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 23:06, 15 August 2018 (UTC)