Talk:Ko-ryū

Definition of kobudō

According to Donn F. Draeger, 1974. Modern Bujutsu & Budo. ISBN 0-8348-0351-8, p.135:

"The term ko budo, ancient martial ways," is a generic term coined in the twentieth century. It may be used to describe collectively all Okinawan combative systems, but it is more accurate to say 'Okinawan ko budo,' in order to distinguish them from Japanese ko budo (the classical bujutsu and budo), hich are entirely different and basically unrelated systems. The use of the term ko budo should not be limited, as it popularly is, to the describing of the ancient weapons systems of Okinawa."

For you information the concept 'ko budo' is described in Donn F. Draeger, 1973. Classical Budo. ISBN 978-0-8348-0234-6. Draftbooks (talk) 11:37, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Koryu List

Your list of koryu schools is not complete. You should ad the school "Yagyu Shingan Ryu" to the list. This school is also mentioned at www.koryu.com with a short description to it.

The list at koryu.com is also incomplete. I don't think it makes much sense to have a huge list of redlinks here. jni 10:59, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. There have been many koryu founded since the earliest records (Maniwa Nen-ryu is first, IIRC), and there are still hundreds extant today. It's inappropriate to list them all here, particularly if they lack non-stub articles. Better to just list the well known ones and others that have been linked already. However, I think that Yagyu Shingan-ryu is fairly well known for koryu so it deserves to be listed. — Jéioosh 06:03, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

As per the discussion - I've removed the red links. There is a reference for a more complete list and frankly if its important enough its worth writting at least a stub.Peter Rehse 08:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Romanization

The preferred romanization used on the KSSR websites is "Kashima-Shinryu" as opposed to "Kashima Shin-ryu."

I think for this article it's best to keep the romanization practice the same for all names. For that particular article romanizing it in their preferred manner would be appropriate. — Jéioosh 06:03, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Isshin-ryu and the works

Should Isshin-ryu be part of this? It was founded in 1953. That's much later than the Meiji era. alden7 9/22/05

Well, I thought I'd heard of an Isshin-ryu koryu, but whether or not such a thing exists the article is about a modern karate ryu. Removed. — Jéioosh 06:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

There is a koryu system named Isshin-ryu. It is a kusarigama school that has since been subsumed into the corpus of Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu, and it taught, along with other schools such as Uchida-ryu, etc. I believe that you can find more information at this website:

http://www.koryubooks.com/guide/isshin.html

Hope this helps - JStraub

Yes as mentioned above, there are two systems of Isshin-ryu. One koryu and one modern karate-system. The original Isshin-ryu was setup like a regular bujutsu-system of the time with multiple weapons included. For reasons I'm not familiar with, the Isshin-ryu main system was abolished, maybe through the death of it's headmaster with no complete menkyo kaiden. Since only the kusarigama element was retained in Shinto Muso-ryu it might be one possibility. Regardless, now only the Isshin-ryu kusarigamajutsu part survives of the original Isshin-ryu bujutsu system. So technically Isshin-ryu is dead with only Isshin-ryu kusarigamajutsu remains as a koryu. On the kusarigama article there is a brief history-section of Isshin-ryu as well. I'm changing the entry as to reflect this since Isshin-ryu Karate doesn't qualify for koryu status. Fred26 10:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to to correct the above statement. I got word the other week that the original Isshin-ryu is actually active in Japan today. Fred26 09:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Suihasu-ryu

I just fixed it up for format and language - not judging one way or the other but I did notice that the original writter says he's the 14th Soke and gives his birth date as 1985. Totally possible I know but then again .... Peter Rehse 07:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Shindo Yoshin ryu - two articles

Someone has created a Shindo Yoshin-ryū article. There already is an entry on this particular ryu found under the name Shindo Yoshin Ryu. Fred26 12:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Promotion to B class

Add a couple of picis and this article can be promoted to B-class.Peter Rehse 06:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Propose merge Kobudo into Koryu

I have proposed a merger of the existing Kobudo article into the Koryu article. In my personal opinion the Kobudo article is reduntant since Kobudo and Koryu differs little from each other and what little information contained in the former can easily be squeezed in as a paragraph in Koryu together with an clarification on the Kobudo/Koryu differences. Please note, I'm not talking about Okinawan kobudo, (with karate, bojutsu, tonfa and so on), which already has an excellent article. Any comments? Fred26 08:01, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, they're synonymous. No protest here. — Gwalla | Talk 20:01, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have to object. This is a general shorthand term for any school of anything that is old. Martial arts use it as a shortform, but other schools in other areas also use it. Gryffindor (talk) 22:37, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Merger complete

Merger complete, kobudo is now a disambig-page with the edit-history preserved there. Fred26 10:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

NO, NO The merger of kobudo and koryu was a very bad idea because it is two different terms!

All Japan Kendo Federation describes kobudō as following:

"In contrast to budō, which has become more competitive, a type of martial art which has kept its ancient mode of training and has been preserved and handed down from generation to generation. Also called ko-ryū."

It is sensational that All Japan Kendo Federation suggests that the term kobudō 古武道 is synonymous the term ko-ryū 古武道 because ko-ryū refers to bujutsu (martial arts) and kobudō refers to old budō (ancient martial ways). They are two different systems which origin are different. Besides the two systems differ in the ranking of priorities concerning combat, morals, discipline and/or aesthetic form. - Kontoreg (talk) 23:01, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• Correction: The kanji for ko-ryū is not 古武道; the kanji for ko-ryū is 古武流 - Kontoreg (talk) 04:32, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the kanji for ko-ryū is 古流, normally translated as 'old style' or 'old school'. 流 is the first character of 流派 ryu-ha "faction, school, tradition". 古流 is used generaly to talk about old-style schools, for example in Ikebana. In the context of talking about martial arts, 古武道 and 古流武術 (old style martial skills) are used interchangeably by most people, with some people using 古武道 to refer only to those styles where combat is no longer effectively taught. Francis Bond (talk) 07:27, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I think I see some of the source of your confusion: there are people who make the distinctions you want to make e.g. Meik Skoss: [1] but I think if you read his essay carefully, you will see that he is saying that he will make this distinction, not that these are the standard uses of the terms: "I will use the term bujutsu to mean the martial arts, systems that are intended to provide effective means of combat and/or self-protection. Budo will refer to the martial ways, systems that use the métier of "combat" as a means of self-cultivation through austere training (shugyo)." Note the use of I, he is not claiming that this is the general, accepted use of these terms. Francis Bond (talk) 07:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC

Note that Diana Skoss states clearly: "Does it really matter which term a Japanese martial art outside of Japan uses? To the Japanese, absolutely not. The terms are used interchangeably, with budo the most frequently heard. Bujutsu might possibly be used to distinquish an art with a stronger emphasis on combative technique from those that focus on life discipline (the "Way"), but in general, budo is the term used in Japan to refer to martial arts. So to answer the question: "What's the difference between koryu budo, kobudo, kobujutsu, and koryu bujutsu?" For all practical purposes, there is none." [2]. So maybe we can stop making such a fuss about it? Francis Bond (talk) 07:42, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. It is why we had to use references. Please the references in the article. - Kontoreg (talk) 12:45, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

References

Martial Art or Martial Way

I did read the references, and I believe the second reference uses the more common term. As far as I know, only Donn Draeger uses 'Martial Ways'. Kenkyuusha has 'military [martial] art' for Budo, the second reference has 'martial art' as the translation for Budo in its glossary. Even the title of the book uses 'arts'. Further, shin means new and gendai modern so the standard gloss is 'new martial art' and 'modern martial art'.

Kontoreg: if you want to talk about variations in naming, please add them to the Description of Kobudō section, where they are appropriate, not the lede. Francis Bond (talk) 02:26, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

How can the term kobudō (古武道) be translated with 'ancient martial arts' - the kanji for 'ancient martial arts' is not 古武道. In addition kobudō had their origin in the Tokugawa era of peace (1603-1868) and derived from the combative systems of the Japanese martial arts. - Kontoreg (talk) 13:28, 24 October 2013 (UTC) By the way, the term 'shin' and 'gendai' do not have anything to do with 'kobudo' because 'ko' (古) means 'old' and not 'new' or 'modern'. If you have another opinion I will like to see the kanji for the words 'shin' and 'gendai'. - Kontoreg (talk) 13:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Asserting something is incorrect does not make it correct. 古武道 is translated as 'ancient martial arts'. The kanji for 'ancient martial arts' is more fully 古代武道. However, '古代' 古 on its own can also mean ancient, although I am happy to go with old or classical, if you prefer. 武道 'martial art'. Shin is 新 meaning new, and gendai 現代 is modern. If you cannot read Japanese, perhaps you should be a little bit more respectful of the knowledge of those who can when we are discussing Japanese terms. Francis Bond (talk) 04:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC)