Talk:Killing of David McAtee

Request on whether additional info may be added

Hello. I'm not a regular contributor to Wikipedia so apologies in advance if my formatting is off, but I wanted to ask if a piece of additional information would be relevant for this page & fit Wikipedia's standards. This shooting has been on my mind for the past couple weeks in part because David McAtee was killed around midnight EST, but his body wasn't removed from the street until over 12 hours later (sometime in the early afternoon). There is photo documentation on Twitter of police standing on duty around his body in daylight while a crowd is gathered around on the opposite side of the street. May this information be sourced per Wikipedia guidelines & added to the article? Thank you in advance! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.163.239.10 (talk) 14:18, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 02:58, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the chief of the Louisville Metro Police Department was fired after the mayor learned that officers' body cameras were off during the shooting of David McAtee? Costello, Darcy (June 1, 2020). "Louisville Metro Police Chief Steve Conrad fired after David McAtee shooting, city unrest". The Courier-Journal. Retrieved June 2, 2020. [1]

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Boneybefore

Created by Fram (talk) and Leaky.Solar (talk). Nominated by The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) at 22:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: This is an informative article and the hook is good. Piped link is better pointing to Police body camera. Please add the weblink to the citation here and on the article put it on the previous sentence to reference the claim directly. Then it's good to go. Mujinga (talk) 17:51, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I've changed the destination for the piped link. Fram, can you handle the sourcing request from Mujinga? The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 17:57, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• The Squirrel Conspiracy, as Fram hasn't done so in two weeks, you'll need to find someone else to handle the sourcing request. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:56, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello BlueMoonset, The Squirrel Conspiracy, and Mujinga - DYK newbie jumping in here to help! I have added the weblink to this hook here and moved the citation to the end of that sentence in the article. I hope this helps, please ping me if this article needs more help to move along in the DYK process! Terasaface (talk) 18:04, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Hiya thanks for the comment Terasaface, yep that completes the review. Mujinga (talk) 19:15, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 3 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move (closed by non-admin page mover) Mdaniels5757 (talk) 18:38, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

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Shooting of David McAtee → Killing of David McAtee – As per loads of wikipedia articles which have Murder of instead of how they died. see this category for examples. More neutral title. Note not murder as no one convicted of it. Can be moved when convicted. Games of the world (talk) 18:34, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Neither an argument for or against, but there are many existing articles that begin "Shooting of". See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.—Bagumba (talk) 03:59, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support. McAtee died as a result of being shot. There's no reason to sugarcoat this. Songwaters (talk) 17:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose: See the recent multi-article RM discussions recorded at Talk:Shooting of Atatiana Jefferson and Talk:Shooting of Breonna Taylor. This would harm consistent article naming for Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States. Also note that the OP's rationale refers to murder but the RM is not proposing to use the word "murder". If murder were clearly established, then the article title would use "murder", not "killing". —BarrelProof (talk) 18:39, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
  • In that light, I've changed my mind and am voting for Oppose. Songwaters (talk) 18:49, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Songwaters, there was a more recent bigger consensus at Talk:Killing of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:05, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Please see my comment below about Floyd. That is a different set of circumstances, since Floyd was not shot. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support – This person was shot and killed, the killing being the more notable subject of this article. The title should reflect that. Any arguments for consistency have been refuted at the George Floyd move discussion. It is a circular argument which does not stand on its own. The only reason to keep this title is consistency with other articles which were themselves also incorrectly titled for the same reason. We can establish a new consistent title scheme but we have to go through one article at a time. Whether or not the killing is a justified response, it is still a killing. Call it like it is. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Floyd was not shot, so there is a difference there. We seem to use "Shooting of" for people who were killed by being shot. I haven't noticed any uses of "Shooting of" for people who were not killed. See the article naming consistency in Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It makes no difference that a firearm was involved. The fact that he died is the most notable and identifying aspect of the subject and should be in the title. There are several "Shooting of" articles where the person survived: David Ortiz, Abdullahi Omar Mohamed, Nikola Štedul, and Jesse Hartnett. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:04, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

OK, that's good to know, but still, there are no uses of "Killing of" in Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States. Wikipedia very consistently uses "Shooting of" for non-murder deaths by shooting (at least for those killed by shooting by law enforcement officers in the United States). —BarrelProof (talk) 21:02, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per BarrelProof. "Killing of..." is used for non-firearm related deaths, such as Killing of Eric Garner (see Talk:Death of Eric Garner#Requested move 2 June 2020). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:59, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Opposethis is how it has been handled and how it should be handled. Bangabandhu (talk) 02:11, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose The term killing usually refer to non firearm related deaths. BigRed606 (talk) 05:11, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Most dictionaries define killing as being an intentional act to cause death.[2] The intent in this case is not yet clear.—Bagumba (talk) 05:27, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

• (comment) I feel the "intent" to kill McAtee is very clear. Courier Journal [3] reports the National Guard used military M4 rifles (designed solely for the US military to use in wars to kill the enemy) to kill McAtee. The National Guard killed McAtee with "green-tipped, military-grade ammunition used by guard members — known as 5.56 mm M855 bullet ... four bullet fragments found in McAtee's body were badly mangled." The National Guard fired at least 10 military grade bullets at McAtee. In my view, it's not hard to know what "intent" of the National Guard is when they use their military rifles to fire 10 rounds of military grade ammo at/into a civilian. BetsyRMadison (talk) 16:43, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

• While I personally agree with you, it is not our role, as Wikipedia editors, to make such moral or legal decisions.Michael E Nolan (talk) 02:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
• WP:UNDUE assessment based on what most reliable sources say, which is independent on what any of us individually feel the "real" intent was.—Bagumba (talk) 04:12, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support changing the title to the "Killing of David McAtee." I agree with C call it what it is, a "killing." David McAtee was killed by being shot to death. Simply titling it "the shooting" does not properly reflect the fact that he was killed because someone in KY National Guard shot him to death. BetsyRMadison (talk) 16:34, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per consistency with many other articles of a similar nature, e.g. Shooting of Trayvon Martin, Shooting of Michael Brown, Shooting of Philando Castile, etc. The article can be renamed if and when there is a conviction. Love of Corey (talk) 20:39, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
• OpposeMichael E Nolan (talk) 02:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What video "appears" to show

It doesn't seem WP:NPOV to place in the lead unqualified that the victim "opened fire on officers before being killed." The acting police chief prefaces his statement with appears and says many questions remain: This video appears to show Mr. McAtee firing a gun outside of his business door as officers, who are using pepper balls to clear the Dino's (Food Mart) lot, were approaching his business. This video does not provide all the answers. But we are releasing it to provide transparency. It does not answer every question, including why did he fire and where were police at the time he fired?It does not answer every question, including why did he fire and where were police at the time he fired?[4] Another officer said with reservation using appears: 'At this point,' it appears McAtee fired first.[5] This seems too WP:RSBREAKING with many unknowns to be investigated to present in the lead right now. It is already mentioned in the body, and can be expanded there as needed.—Bagumba (talk) 03:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Especially considering the consensus among many activists in Louisville that he wasn't brandishing a gun, he had barbeque tongs in his hand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FCC8:B74E:B600:A9BC:FFB:CE1E:54EA (talk) 06:11, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Robbob606 has repeatedly added that "multiple video surveillance’s" showed McAtee firing at police.[6] The New York Times article they cited in their last edit says Then came the sound of a shot — his, according to the police — followed by a string of shots from the police and National Guard. It didn't say that video shows he shot at them. The article also says the police recovered six handguns and one shotgun from the crime scene. Was it him who fired at them? Another statement by the police said McAtee fired his weapon out the door of his business as police approached.. Again, does not say video shows he fired at them. Is there a reliable source that says that video shows that he fired at them? While, it is the official's current position that he did, but it's not directly from video.—Bagumba (talk) 12:24, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Abbreviations

Bagumba, doesn't MOS say that we're supposed to spell out abbreviations once in the lead and on the first use in the body? I could've sworn it does, but can't find the guidance I'm thinking of. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:29, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@Muboshgu: AFAIK, expand only the first time per MOS:ACROFIRSTUSE.—Bagumba (talk) 15:09, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

The coordinates listed in this article appear to be the exact same as the ones in the article for the Shooting of Breonna Taylor. Why is this? TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 16:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Move

I've moved this per policy at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths) —valereee (talk) 14:38, 21 December 2021 (UTC)