Talk:Khatri/Archive 6

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Military capacity of khatris

7 out of 27 Indian army chiefs are Khatris (post independence) which is highest among all Indian communities and we are doubting the credentials of Khatris as warriors 1. Joginder Jaswant Singh Marwah General 31 January 2005 30 September 2007 Infantry - Maratha Light Infantry PVSM, AVSM, VSM, ADC

2. Nirmal Chander Vij General 31 December 2002 31 January 2005 Infantry - Dogra Regiment PVSM, UYSM, AVSM

3. Ved Prakash MalikOm Prakash Mehra General 1 October 1997 30 September 2000 Infantry - Sikh Light Infantry PVSM, AVSM, ADC

4. Om Prakash Malhotra General 1 June 1978 31 May 1981 Regiment of Artillery PVSM

5 Deepak Kapoor General 30 September 2007 31 March 2010 Regiment of Artillery PVSM, AVSM, SM, VSM, ADC

6. Bikram Singh General 31 May 2012 Current Infantry - Sikh Light Infantry PVSM, UYSM, AVSM, VSM, SM, ADC

7 Pran Nath Thapar General 8 May 1961 19 November 1962 Infantry - 1st Punjab Regiment[4]

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Chief_of_the_Army_Staff_(India). 

Not only men, Punita Arora, holded second highest rank i.e. Lieutant General of Indian Armed Forces and Vice admiral of Indian Navy is also from the same community. She is the first women to do so.

Sardarilal Mathradas Nanda (X- Navy admiral), Om Prakash Mehra (X Airforce chief).

Khatris Indian Army chiefs-7

Rajputs Indian Army chiefs- 3 or 4

Jats: 0

Gujjars: 0

Few are from Tamil, Andhra, Assam and Bengal.

It seems that Khatris majorly represent the warrior tribe of nation (post independence- nobody favored them, they themselves emerged purely on the basis of merit).

Not only Army, Dharamnath Prasad Kohli, a khatri founded the CBI, India's Central Investigation Agency.

Khatris deserve a very nicely written article, with account of prominent personalities. As none of the Indian community has contributed so much to the name of India. We should choose our words very carefully for them. Thank you.

  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 (talk • contribs) 07:46, 26 December 2013 (UTC) 

[Satya301] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.202.64.31 (talk) 01:59, 26 December 2013 (UTC) If you

As I've said before, you haven't provided a single source to support these claims. We cannot rely on the content of other articles, nor can be assume someone's caste based on a last name, nor can we define a living person as belonging to a certain caste unless they self-identify. Even if all those issues were resolved, we should not say that they "majorly represent the warrior tribe of nation" because the achievements of a few individuals do not reflect on the community as a whole. You are attempting to engage in puffery here and it will not be accepted. - Sitush (talk) 10:04, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

//jainismus.hubpages.com/hub/The-Khatri-Community-of-India article written by one of the known Indian journalist. About the author (//jainismus.hubpages.com/) this article further attest to what i was saying. And have some patience, when i have said i wil give you reference by next week, is it necessary to showcase your talents?? Also, can you show me one reference which says that they belong to any other caste??? If not then better dont get engaged in argument. "Achievement of few individuals"- Dear [Sitush], I am confused with this statement. Can you name one community which has that many (as per you,few) magnificent people. It is not puffery, it is just highlighting the prominent personalities of Khatri community, as done by all, Indian and Foreign tribes. So you better be cautious in using this word, "puffery" in this context. And let me ask you, why not a single concluded argument has been applied, you have time to reply and write all of this, but have no time to omit what has been concluded as irrelevant. And if you have 2000 articles to handle, better give responsibility to some other person who can fix it in time. [Satya301] Satya301 (talk) 18:02, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Please read WP:PUFFERY, WP:BLP and WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 18:13, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I have read puffery article, you better understand the term puffery. THese are facts. There is no contentious material in it. And as far as sourcing is concerned, you first show some concern about your references (which are the worst (that Dashrath Sharma one, Early Chauhān dynasties: a study of Chauhān political history, Chauhān political institutions, and life in the Chauhān dominions, from 800 to 1316 A.D., Dasharatha Sharma, p 279, Motilal Banarsidass, 1975 .. Wo Motilal Banarasidass, this is your trust worthy reference,

^ Kenneth W. Jones (1976). Arya dharm: Hindu consciousness in 19th-century Punjab. University of California Press. pp. 4–5. ISBN 978-0-520-02920-0. "...among Vaishyas, the Khatri and his associates, the Saraswat Brahmans. The Khatris claimed, with some justice and increasing insistence, the status of Rajputs, or Kshatriyas, a claim not granted by those above but illustrative of their ambiguous position on the great varna scale of class divisions ...

or this contradictory statement where author is not sure whether he is in agreement or disagreement of their kshatriya varna.

References are like i gave (Syan, Hardip Singh (2013). Sikh Militancy in the Seventeenth Century: Religious Violence in Mughal and Early Modern India. I. B. Tauris. ISBN 9781780762500.), where clear description is given unlike your unclear, poorly illustrated references.

First you read these suggested articles by your self, as we are not discussing about College band or some small group (so their is no issue of puffery), we are talking about Khatris, the most influential and powerful Indian community.

Here is the list of it and if you have any problem with it, then you better search and verify it. As i am writing this as per good faith.

1. A Khatri received Nobel Prize, two received Bharat Ratna (Highest Civil Award in India), three received Param Vir Chakra (Highest Military Award in India), 11 received Mahavir Chakra (Second Highest Military Award in India), and hundreds of others from this community won hundreds of other prestigious awards in other fields including Entertainment Industry, Literature, Science & Technology, Business, sports etc.

2. This community gave 3 Prime Ministers to India

3. A Khatri woman Kalpana Chawla was famous astronaut of NASA

4. This community gave many Chief of Staffs and other officers to Indian Armed Forces. An interesting fact is that during Indo-Pak war of 1971, both the chiefs of Indian Air Force and Indian Navy were Khatris.This war was the most victorious war for India.

5. Khatris are dominant people in Indian Film and Entertainment Industry, on the screen and behind the screen.

Religion:

Sikh Gurus: Sikhism is one of the most important religions in India. It was founded by Guru Nanak Dev in 15th century, and then it was promoted by next 9 Gurus. All the 10 Gurus of Sikhs belonged to Khatri community. The names of the 10 Gurus are as following: Guru Nanak Dev, Guru Angad Dev, Guru Amar Das, Guru Ram Das, Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Har Gobind, Guru Har Rai, Guru Har Krishan, Guru Tegh Bahadur, and Guru Gobind Singh.

Freedom Fighters: Madan Lal Dhingra and Sukhadev Thapar. Former was sent to prison in England and latter was hanged to death in British India.

Politics: Master Tara Singh (Sikh religious and political leader), Purushottam Das Tondon, Gulzarilal Nanda (Interim Prime Minister of India for two times), Inder Kumar Gujral (12th Prime Minister), Man Mohan Singh (13th and present Prime Minister), Kapil Sibal (Central Minister), Maneka Gandhi, Lal Krishna Advani.

Science: Har Gobind Khorana (Bio-chemist, Nobel Laurette), Birbal Shahani (paleobotanist), Kalpana Chawla (NASA Astronaut), Satish Dhawan (Space Scientist), Ravish Malhotra (Indian Astronaut)

Literature and Journalism: Bhishm Sahani, Lala Jagat Narayan, Amruta Preetam, Khushavant Singh, Deepak Chopra, Mulk Raj Anand, Roshan Seth, Vikram Seth, Vinod Dua, Prabhu Chawla, Karan Thapar, Devki Nandan Khatri, Narendra Kohli, Najam Sethi (Pakistan).

Defense: Colonel Prem Kumar Sehgal (key personality of Indian National Army during World War II), Admiral S.M. Nanda (Navy Chief in 1971 Indo-Pak war), Air Chief Marshal Pratap Chand Lal (IAF Chief in 1971 Indo-Pak war), Lieutenant General Jagjit Sing Arora ( General Officer Commanding-in-Chief (GOC-in-C) of the Eastern Command during Indo-Pak war of 1971), Guru Bachan Sing Salaria, Vikram Batra, Arun Kshetrapal (All three recipients of Param Vir Chakra, the highest Military Award of India), General J.J. Sing, General Nirmal Chandra Vij, General Om Prakash Malhotra, General Pran Nath Thapar, General V.P. Malik, General Deepak Kapoor,

Entertainment:

Music and Singing: Kundan Lal Sehgal, O.P. Nayyar, Madan Mohan, Mahendra Kapoor, Anup Jalota, Anu Malik, Baba Sehgal

Production and Direction: Chetan Anand, Ramanand Sagar, Yash Chopra, Subhash Ghai, Shekhar Kapoor, Rajesh Roshan, Raj Khosla, Deepa Mehta, Meera Nayar, Karan Johar, Ekta Kapoor

Acting: Prithvi Raj Kapoor, Raj Kapoor, Balraj Sahani, Vijay Anand, Dev Anand, Shammi Kapoor, Shashi Kapoor, Rajesh Khanna, Jitendra, Vinod Khanna, Parikshit Sahani, Rakesh Roshan, Suresh Oberoy, Prem Nath, Rajendra Nath, Prem Chopra, Om Puri, Om Shiv Puri, Amarish Puri, Randhir Kapoor, Rishi Kapoor, Rajiv Kapoor, Raj Babbar, Pankaj Kapoor, Ranveer Kapoor, Shakri Kapoor, Anil Kapoor, Sanjay Kapoor, Boni Kapoor, Roshan Seth, Rhitik Roshan, Akshay Khanna, Akshay Kapoor, Kunal Kapoor, Vivek Oberoy, Gulshan Grover, Aadar Jain, Armaan Jain, Tushar Kapoor, Rakesh Bedi.......

...............Karishma Kapoor, Ravina Tondon, Kareena Kapoor, Priyanka Chopra, Juhi Chawla, Bhumika Chawla, Twinkle Khanna, Sonam Kapoor and many more... Satya301

This Article is written poorly

This article has a lot of subjective information from poor sources. This is a Punjabi caste and ideally should be written by them rather than mixing multiple irrelevant texts from Manu Smriti or other articles from British Raj. the initial Paragraph on the Mughal patronage is also not supported by good references. and should be removed. My suggestion is to leave this article with one sentence everyone agrees on - "Khatri is a caste found primarily in the northwestern of India, the state of Punjab." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:E:1600:75A:9CF7:8C87:2A74:E988 (talk) 07:21, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree. There seems to be more focus on trying to give every point of view on this page rather than making it a clean read. There are also good references like - Sikh Militancy in the Seventeenth Century:Religous Violence in Mughal and Early Modern India Hardip Singh Syan - which give a clearer picture of the Khatri definition than this muddled article. I would like to clean up the reading of this article along with Sitush - who seems to have been following this article for long. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indianuser11 (talk • contribs) 07:30, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

The entire point of articles on Wikipedia is to inform the reader of information contained in reliable sources and to do so in a neutral manner. There are reliable sources that discuss the community and thus they should be represented. Yes, the article is still in nmeed of much improvement but there is no deadline and, well, I for one am watching slightly over 2,000 other articles at the moment & cannot possibly do everything at once. - Sitush (talk) 10:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Every one can contribute towards it in a meaningful manner, but it seems you are trying to create a monopoly of yours over all the articles, which is absolutely wrong. Do something more than, mentioning about Wikipedia policies. And remember Wikipedia is not peer reviewed so understand that there is always a scope of improvement and one should be open to it. And more than this, be more humble and please remember you are not the sole Editor of it, so give opportunities to other people to contribute (rather criticising everybody).Satya301 (talk) 08:07, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I just read the article and agree that it needs cleanup. I thought indianuser's last edit was good ... Sitush does not need to own this article. Wikipedia is for everyone and needs to be kept so otherwise it defeats the purpose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FreedomScience (talk • contribs) 15:35, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi guys. I am not sure why this article is protected. This is not a controversial topic. It is common knowledge in Punjab that the Khatri is a Punjabi word for Kshatriya. It is not that there are any rewards for being a kshatriya - which in today's terminology only those in the army are. All others fall in other categories based on the profession one follows. However, one needs to clean up an article on Wikipedia to maintain its relevance or needs to just shut it down to avoid misinformation and vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AmericaIndian (talk • contribs) 15:49, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Several of the above are obviously sockpuppets or meatpuppets. I refuse to deal with such people and so do most Wikipedians. Stick with one account, please, otherwise you are just wasting your time. - Sitush (talk) 18:11, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Finally some changes in the article. pick some text from "further reading material" reference (which is more detailed).

Any ways this is my last post, as i realized, Wikipedia is unreliable (http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k70847&pageid=icb.page346376) and complete wastage of time. Written by people who dont have any expertise and understanding of the subject. And cannot recognize the importance of it.

But it can be used for introduction to the topic. To be honest, i was really willing to contribute, but people like you (Sitush) are hopeless. I dont what sockpuppet you are talking about. Anyways, i will not edit any more article, GIVING SPACE TO unfriendly Editors (like you) who could not publish anywhere, and are busy in publishing with Wikipedia. Lol [Satya301] 117.192.103.108 (talk) 04:10, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia has always acknowledged that it is not necessarily reliable. See, for example, WP:CIRCULAR. But it will not become more reliable if people walk away from it, nor if people attempt to disrupt it. - Sitush (talk) 11:12, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

[Sitush]

Are you a chair person of wiki, that you are telling me , "Wiki has always acknowledge" , I have never disrupted unlike you who omitted other person's edit and wipe out the whole article (panjabi chiefs) just like that, and let me tell you, your edits are never done in good faith as claimed by you. Even in this article, you are putting Dashrath Sharma's beliefs "where he said "may"" unlike your claim "described". Even after giving the peer reviewed best reference where Khatri's varna is clearly described (Syan, Hardip Singh (2013). Sikh Militancy in the Seventeenth Century: Religious Violence in Mughal and Early Modern India. I. B. Tauris. ISBN 9781780762500.). Still doing whatever you feel. This is ridiculous. I am disgusted by your editing skills. [Satya301] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.192.103.108 (talk) 15:16, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I didn't say that you had been disruptive. I'm still trying to read the Syan book. And, honestly, I think a big part of the issue right now is that I really cannot understand a lot of what you are saying: much of it seems to be repetitive but I'm afraid that I'm finding it rather garbled. That's my problem, obviously. - Sitush (talk) 15:21, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Britishers accepted the kshatriya claim of khatris.

The Khatri leadership convinced the British authorities that “the Khatris are generally believed to be the modern representatives of the Kshatriyas of Hindu tradition” (Seth 1905)

Thats why in all census, thereafter they were classified in kshatriya group.

Reference: Seth , Moti Lal ( 1905) A Brief Ethnological Survey of the Khattris ( Agra: Khattri Hitkari Association)//

For [Sitush]

Arrogant-believes, his arguments and references are best, Illogical- he cant digest logical evidence- still trying to get the biology definition in Math book: Eg; has written about khatris origin from Dashrath Sharma on Rajputs book, idiot- cant understand references and read them, racist (https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Racism) you come under this definition,

Still if you have some shame left in you, start listening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.128.14 (talk) 14:36, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with Satya

In panjabi, there is no word as kshatriya, it is Khatri which denote warrior caste.

Both words, Khatri (panjabi) and Kshatriyas (hindi) are synonyms.

Can check http://dic.learnpunjabi.org/default.aspx "panjabi to english dictionary" or any other dictionary for panjabi dictionary.

In panjabi, we write khatri as ਖੱਤਰੀ. Please search yourself, if anybody has any doubt.

So stop this conspiracy of defaming khatri caste.Khatri121 (talk) 08:36, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Article updated

All suggested changes have been made after verification as per WP:VERIFY . Cheers Kirtimaansyal (talk) 06:06, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure which suggested changes you are referring to but I've reverted you, sorry. You cannot copy content from books in the manner that you did. Furthermore, I'm not entirely sure that what you said actually adds anything to what is already said. - Sitush (talk) 06:18, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

By the way, if you can tell me what the suggested changes were then I'd appreciate it. Most of this talk page comprises gibberish. - Sitush (talk) 06:23, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

As per WP:QUOTE , quotes are advisable to make things less controversial. And this Khatri article is already full of controversies so please do not remove the quotes that i have taken from the specified references. I am reverting the article to its earlier form. Thanks. Kirtimaansyal (talk) 06:27, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

You've been here for a few months now. It is about time that you familiarised yourself with WP:COPYRIGHT. In addition, WP:QUOTE explains how we quote ... and it isn't in the manner that you were doing. - Sitush (talk) 06:32, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I have written the whole origin and varna status again. I agree to your copyright infringement policy and i have taken care of it. Please do not undo the changes as i have invested my whole day for finding the right excerpts from books and wrote it in meaningful manner. Kirtimaansyal (talk) 17:31, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Khatri Hierarchy

The image File:Khatri hierarchy.png and the paragraph about the Khatri Hierarchy were removed because the citation provided did not verify. The book cited was <ref>"Hierarchy of Khatris" {{cite book|title=खतरी पदानुक्रम|year=1989|location=India|author=Ajinkya|page=312|language=Hindi}}</ref>. The book was not found in WorldCat, the catalogue at the National Library of India, the catalogue at Delhi University Library, the catalogue at CEPT University (Ahmedabad), the catalogue at Nirma University (Ahmedabad) and with a website search, the only websites that came up were Wikipedia mirrors. --Bejnar (talk) 19:33, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Good work. I had big doubts about it. - Sitush (talk) 23:49, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Family names

I have deleted the "family_names" section from the infobox because the citations given did not verify the information. The first citation was to <ref>National Publishing House, 1994 , {{Google books|id=tRxHAAAAYAAJ|title=ICSSR Journal of Abstracts and Reviews, volume 23}}</ref>. The only mention of any of these names was as subcastes on page 101, and none of them were identified as belonging specifically to the Khatri. The two paragraphs read in toto:

Keeping these biological facts in mind the Punjabis and the Baniyas of Delhi were chosen for this study. The Punjabis (excluding Punjabi speaking Baniyas) are primarily divided into two groups, that is the Aroras and the Khatris, which are further subdivided into a number of subcastes (kinship categories) among whom intermarriage is common. Thus Punjabis constitue a Mendelian population.

Ahuja, Anand, Arora, Aneja, Behi, Bhasin, Bhatis, Bhogal, Birdhi, Chenna, Chibber, Chopre, Grover, Gulati, Jawa, Kukreja, Lamba, Marwah, Mehta, Sabarwal. Mehandiratta, Oberoi, Rehal, Sachdeva, Sahani, Saluja, Sagal, Sardana, Sayal, Sehgal, Sindhu, Seth, Sethi, Takkar, Vali, Walia are some of the subcastes of the Punjabis in Delhi.

The second source cited <ref>"Dictionary of Indian names" {{cite book|title=खतरी राजे [khatri Kings] (Indian names)|year=1998|publisher=GHK|location=India|author=Dr.S.R. Anand|page=407|language=Hindi}}</ref> is apparently a list of Khatri kings, and not specifically linked to Khatri surnames, aside from which, I could not verify the existence of the book, under either title, nor under Khatri Rajas. I checked the catalogue at the National Library of India, the catalogue at Delhi University Library, and websites and WordlCat, the only websites that came up were Wikipedia mirrors. --Bejnar (talk) 18:58, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Good work, as I've just said in my previous response below. You've resolved the issue I recently raised regarding Hindi sources. Or, at least, you have done so to my satisfaction. - Sitush (talk) 23:51, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Hindi sources

Please can we have some translated quotations for the recently introduced Hindi sources and some explanation of why the author should be deemed reliable. We get a lot of such sources added to caste articles and, alas, they are almost always biassed and written by people who, while they might hold an academic qualification, are not in fact qualified in the subject matter for which they are being used. A classic is S. N. Sadasivan: he actually wrote in English but his histories were a hobby and his qualifications actually related to public administration; another titled caste historian turned out to be a university academic specialising in irrigation. - Sitush (talk) 08:47, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

One does need to be careful, however, one of the most respected archaeologists in New Mexico in the 1960s was Robert H. Weber, who was by profession a geologist, but by avocation an archaeologist. --Bejnar (talk) 02:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2014

The family name Talwar should also be added to family names on the right side, like I show below. My family members are Talwars and Khatri, and here is a source confirming it: http://genealogy.familyeducation.com/surname-origin/talwar.

|caste_name =Khatri |image = |caption = |varna = |classification = |religions =Hinduism, Islam and Sikhism |languages =Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu |country =Primarily India, a significant population in UK, United States, Canada and Pakistan |populated_states =Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Uttarkhand, Himachal Pradesh, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Balochistan, Sindh, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Andhra Pradesh and Delhi. |family_names =Kapoor, Chopra, Sehgal, Talwar, Malhotra etc. |subdivisions =Bari, Bunjahi and Sarin |related = |status =Forward caste }} Sehgalt (talk) 22:15, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Please can you provide a reliable source. Genealogy websites such as the one you link to are very rarely ok to use here, sorry. Can you find a reference to support your claim in an academic textbook or journal paper? - Sitush (talk) 12:25, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

His claim is correct. Verified from multiple sources as per WP:VERIFY. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=LPsvytmN3mUC&pg=PA538&dq=TALWAR+CASTE+KHATRI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RPkyU-D_LYbGrAea0oGIDw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=TALWAR&f=false Kirtimaansyal (talk) 16:10, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Kirtimaansyal is citing A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province (1911) pages 508 and 511. Sitush, et al., don't care for ethnographic works of the British Raj, because of lack of scientific rigour. --Bejnar (talk) 02:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

khatri is not synonymos with kshatriya. cchatri is synonymos with kshatriya. in punjabi,himdi amd urdu chhatri is used commonly for kshatriya. in akbar,s biography amd jahangir,s autobiography cchatri is used for kshatriya. even today, chhatri and chhatriyani is commonly used for kshatriya and kshatriyani. just like in the english word knife the k is silent similarly k becomes silent in kshatriya.kshatriya amd cchhatri are synonymos. the word khatri might be from khata or accounts. khatri means an accountant or someone who keeps accounts.khatri might have some other meaning perhaps a word that begins with kh.Rajbaz (talk) 12:00, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry Rajbaz, your statements are without peer reviewed references which is not acceptable. I have looked into your claims and found them to be not true. Proper references have been provided so please get your facts straight. And one more thing british era references are no more considered as they are always influenced ones and many times incorrect. Thank you. Kirtimaansyal (talk) 08:06, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

@kirtimaansyal i disagree with you. We Rajputs are a living and proud people. We don,t need peer reviewed references to tell us who we are or who we are not. wikipedia policy about living people is different. this policy only applies to non_living people. Kshatriya shatri cchatri and rajput words are in use every day. both in spoken and written language. These words are used for Rajputs only and not for any other group of people. i have come across the shatri and cchatri words hundreds of times on internet. these words are referred to Rajputs.Rajbaz (talk) 15:56, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

You may not need reliable sources in the "real world", Rajbaz, but you need them here. - Sitush (talk) 23:52, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Regarding history section

Singh, Kumar Suresh (1998). India's Communities, volume 2 H–M. People of India, Anthropological Survey of India. New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. pp. 1722, 1729. ISBN 978-0-19-563354-2.

This reference is not well illustrated. text written in article looks hand picked. This reference also discusses about khatris linked to government servants, doctors, agriculture, business, trade etcetera.

I request editors to contribute sincerely rather for increasing the editing counts.

I searched for more books edited by Suresh Kumar Singh. like

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=vm_KCE4XXPMC&pg=PA544&lpg=PA544&dq=the+people+of+india+khatri&source=bl&ots=VyhCcqDcj3&sig=lXGdrG97DmeaSZVYCjIQ8eiLD8M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8bNbVISjDoO0uQS8l4DoAQ&ved=0CEgQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=the%20people%20of%20india%20khatri&f=false

I request editors to look into it. further, i dont find the credentials of this author very amusing. I suggest better go for some Romila Thapar articles or H.S. Syan texts than sticking to this.

Kirtimaansyal (talk) 18:05, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

It is generally accepted that The People of India series is not a great source. Feel free to replace it with alternates. - Sitush (talk) 14:12, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I deleted the highly disputed line.

"The Khatri were originally engaged in the weaving of silk saris, and subsequently some of them became merchants.[17][disputed – discuss] " -i deleted this.

Reason for delete: Most of the other references contradict this.

In the process of research, we should not accept all as it is, but at the same time should not defy widely accepted concept straight away just on the basis of one/few papers/books.

I request all editors to read this once. how process of research moves on?? It does not move with few research papers/book chapters, it moves with acceptance of one concept by whole research fraternity.

I will try to explain my point with some examples from science.

Say DNA structure. many papers came out which predicted structure of DNA. But it does not mean that all structures were correct. The structure given by Watson and Crick (and Rosalind) was only the accepted one.

Recently, paper came, which defied the HIV as the cause of AIDS (Elsevier journal). Now should i start sharing that paper, claiming that AIDS is not caused by HIV??? Let understand it with another example, recently papers came out which showed that there are particle which move faster than light. But later on it was contested. So should i start sharing the first paper, claiming its proposition (which may be correct as well). research papers/book represent the current work in field which we still dont understand and many times they may be wrong ( or wrongly interpreted).

Concept is not formed by few papers. It is formed in many decades.

Kirtimaansyal (talk) 17:45, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

What other references? - Sitush (talk) 18:16, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

My point is poising the origin to only "one such reference where silk weaving is described is wrong". This article already describes the contradiction between the kshatriya and mercentile origin which is enough. In my opinion, giving unnecessary importance to one side is not right.

And you are involved in editing of this article before me, so I bet you know the references. Kirtimaansyal (talk) 20:25, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

The burden is on you, especially since you appear to say that there are sources that contradict the statement you removed. The "national series" of The People of India has a much better reputation than the subsequent "states series". If this had been said in the latter, I would probably have agreed that a more suitable source should be found. It wasn't in the deprecated series, though.

Contradictions are fine. If two reliable sources say different things, we show them both. What we definitely do not do is pander to the vanity of kshatriya pov-pushers, which is what this article has been subjected to, on and off over many years. I suggest you either come up with some of the references you mention or you self-revert. For the avoidance of doubt, this article is subject to general sanctions - I'll leave a note on your talk page that explains this to you. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 21:15, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

An extremely quick search throws up this, this, this and this as just some examples of sources mentioning the Khatri involvement with silk. - Sitush (talk) 21:26, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

My concern is that most of the references that give 'silk weaver claim' dont give detailed view. As per best of my knowledge khatris have the origin in Panjab and not in Gujrat or Rajasthan so concluding about the origin by observing the population of Gujrat/Rajasthan is not correct. It is like i comment on economic status of the Indian community by considering Indian population settled in UK. In your second reference, authors mention Rajput in bracket which further adds on to the confusion. i suggested before and you accepted and incorporated the Syan reference. So please go through it.

I know you are on wiki from many years, and i know about discretionary sanctions so please stop posting about it. Kirtimaansyal (talk) 22:30, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

you show both but without disturbing the balance. The line that you reverted 'The Khatri were originally engaged in the weaving of silk saris' denies the claims of all other reference in the article itself. If you want to mention about it then you may say that they were also engaged in silk weaving trades.

Mentioning that Khatris were originally engaged in the weaving of silk saris is incorrect. Kirtimaansyal (talk) 22:38, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

"The best of your knowledge" is not good enough. We work off the knowledge gleaned from reliable sources, not Wikipedians such as you or me. - Sitush (talk) 09:57, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Exclusively for Sitush. Read Sitush Read

1. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=HbAjKR_iHogC&pg=PA329&dq=khatri+caste&hl=en&sa=X&ei=N87LUuaDOsa5rgeYpoGwDQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=khatri&f=false

By Susan Bayly

2. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=vgixwfeCyDAC&pg=PA115&dq=khatri+caste&hl=en&sa=X&ei=N87LUuaDOsa5rgeYpoGwDQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=khatri%20caste&f=false

By: W. H. McLeod

read it and then tell, what author thinks about khatris varnas.

3. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=NShXfaNbRyEC&pg=PA48&dq=khatri+caste&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JNDLUrGeB8ParAe6s4CADw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=khatri%20caste&f=false

4. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=NShXfaNbRyEC&pg=PA48&dq=khatri+caste&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JNDLUrGeB8ParAe6s4CADw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=khatri%20caste&f=false

By Kamala Elizabeth Nayar

5. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=_ykqAAAAYAAJ&q=khatri+caste+kshatriya&dq=khatri+caste+kshatriya&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T9PLUtynComMrQe3x4CoCg&redir_esc=y

By A Malhotra

[Satya]

verify this reference

Singh, Kumar Suresh (1998). India's Communities, volume 2 H–M. People of India, Anthropological Survey of India. New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. pp. 1722, 1729. ISBN 978-0-19-563354-2.

I could not find it online.

And it is self contradicting (contradicting with available people of volumes).

A source does not have to be online to be acceptable for use on Wikipedia. The "people of" volumes are the "states series". Those are the ones we considered to be of dubious reliability, not the other way round. The "national series" was published by Oxford University Press; the remainder by a variety of much less respected outfits. - Sitush (talk) 10:26, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

discussion over disputed section

"The Khatri were originally engaged in the weaving of silk saris, and subsequently some of them became merchants.[16][disputed – discuss"

In the reference, author talks about the khatri population settled (migrated to) in Gujarat. So, this reference does not speak for all khatri population. And looking at the variability in the professions of Khatris over the time line that is from film industry to Army to founders of Sikhism to mercantile occupations to doctors to engineers and farmers, this line has been written completely out of context.

I strongly believe that this line should go. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.83.140.210 (talk) 09:33, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

We already say in an earlier section that they have been involved in numerous professions/trades etc. The section you mention is specifically discussing early known history and the source is actually decent, unlike the later "states series" books that AnSI collated. Can you please quote the bit from that source which shows the author is referring only to Gujarat and that what is said doesn't apply elsewhere. - Sitush (talk) 10:24, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

I second to that if one really thinks on this line, that is "The Khatri were originally engaged in the weaving of silk saris". First, 'originally' is a very strong word. Even the book does not mention it. Secondly, this book only mention it in a line and not in any detail. Thirdly, Sitush your trust worthy source tells that Bhardwaja, Kashyap, Valmiki and Parashar are gotras of Khatris, I think you should add this information as well as it is coming from your trustworthy source.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=g9MVAQAAMAAJ&q=khatris+silk+sarees&dq=khatris+silk+sarees&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiq7qOelsjLAhVOW44KHaWyCpgQ6AEIOjAD

Let me know, if I am looking at the wrong book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.128.20 (talk) 17:01, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Few more famous khatris- request editor to include them in the list.

Har Gobind Khorana, Nobel Laurate (Medicine);

Sukhdev Thapar, Indian freedom Fighter;

Madan Lal Dhingra, Indian freedom fighter;

Kalpana Chawla, Astranaut, NASA;

Captain Vikram Batra, Indian Army, War Hero;

Pran Nath Thapar, Indian Army General (1961-62);

Om Prakash Malhotra, Indian Army General (1978-81);

Nirmal Chander Vij, Indian Army General (2002-2005);

Deepak Kapoor, Indian Army General (2007-2010);

Gurdyal Besra, Professor, University of Birmingham, United Kingdom;

Deepak Malhotra, Eli Goldston Professor, Harvard Business School, USA;

Ajay Sood, Fellow of Royal Society, Professor, Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore;

Upinder S. Bhalla, Professor, NCBS, Bangalore;

Arun Kuma Grover, Vice Chancellor, Panjab University;

Geet Siriram Sethi, National Player (Snooker), India;

Gagan Narang, National Player (Shooting), India;

Abhinav Bindra, National Player (Shooting), India;

Second Lieutenant Arun Khetarpal, War Hero, Indian Army

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.128.19 (talk) 20:21, 17 September 2016 (UTC) 

Few more

KK Talwar (Cardiologist), Retired Director, PGIMER, Chandigarh;

Meera Syal, British Comedian;

Roshan Family, Bollywood;

Govinda (Ahuja), Actor, Bollywood;

Kapoor Family, Bollywood;

Priyanka Chopra, Bollywood;

Chopra Family, Bollywood;

Sanjay V. Malhotra, Associate Professor (RESEARCH) of RADIATION ONCOLOGY, Stanford University;

Sheena Malhotra, Professor of Gender & Women’s Studies and Director for the MA in Humanities Program at California State University, Northridge, USA;

Vivek Malhotra, Professor, University of California, Sandiego, USA

Gulzarilal Nanda, Acting Prime Minister, Bharat Ratna Awardee, India

Inder Kumar Gujral, Prime Minister (21 April, 1997 to 19 March, 1998), India

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.128.19 (talk) 20:30, 17 September 2016 (UTC) 

Minor changes in origin section

A quote has been taken from the Government records with proper reference in origin section. Kirtimaansyal (talk) 15:28, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

The Founder of Khatri Arya Samaj was Mahatma Hansraj ( a.k.a. Lala Hansraj Bhalla of Bajwara)

The Founder of Khatri Arya Samaj and D.A.V. schools and educational institutions was Mahatma Hansraj ( a.k.a. Lala Hansraj Bhalla of Bajwara) contrary to Hans Raj Gupta, who was mostly based in Delhi and was mainly a contemporary of Balraj Bhalla (Mahatma Hans Raj's Son). Plz edit. 22~02~2017 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sherk1 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

why khatri's are at the top

No one can deny the fact, that at present time, khatri's of punjab are at the top. whether in bollywood, Army, business, education, or politics. khatri's have always been considered elite group, and they are most good looking people in india,you can see that through their domination in bollywood, khanna, malhotra, dhawan, kapoor, sanon, bhatia( akshay kumar), chopra, etc.ALL sikh guru's were khatri, Most of the army generals. Now saying something bad about this extraordinary community will not do any harm, people you need to work, and genetics you can't change, they have ruled bollywood , and they will keep doing that, and all you can do is bash them in group. ugly bunch of people — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabrug (talk • contribs) 19:24, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Punjab Revenue as a source

The Punjab Revenue is not a reliable source. It routinely reprints information that was first published by Raj-era authors and makes no attempt to update it etc. Basically, it is plagiarising them. - Sitush (talk) 13:01, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Q

Can anyone give reference regarding the Silk trade remark. I could not any references (other than mentioned) on that. (09:18, 6 September 2017 (UTC))

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2017

Eth. CATHAEI (Eth. Καθαῖοι), a powerful and warlike people of India intra Gangem (in the Panjab) between the rivers Hydraotes (Ravee) and Hyphasis (Gharra), whose capital city, SANGALA is supposed to have occupied the site of the modern Sikh capital, Lahore. This city was taken and destroyed by Alexander on his march into India, B.C. 326 (Arrian. Anab. 5.22, foll.; Diod. 17.91). Strabo, who is doubtful between which two rivers of the Panjab the people dwelt, relates some of their customs: how they had the highest regard for beauty in dogs and horses, and in men, so that, when a child was two months old, a solemn judgment was held, whether he was beautiful enough to. be suffered to live: how they stained their beards [p. 1.570]with the beautiful colours which their country produced in abundance: how marriage was contracted by the mutual choice of the bride and bridegroom, and how widows were burned with their deceased husbands, a custom for which he gives a merely imaginary reason. He calls their country Cathaea (Κάθαια: Strab. xv. p.699.) Some modern writers suppose the Cathaeans to have been a branch of the Rajputs (Mannert, vol. v. pt. i. p. 43), while others, including several of the best Orientalists, trace in their name that of the Hindu warrior caste, the Kshátriyas. (Lassen, Pentapot. p. 23; Schlegel, Ind. Bibl. vol. i. p. 249; Bohlen, Alte Indien, vol. ii. p. 22; Ritter, Erdkunde, vol. v. p. 461.) 86.96.199.209 (talk) 13:15, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 13:18, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 December 2017

The current page does not contain the list of possible khatri lastnames, the same can be added from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Indian_surnames_(Khatri) Kraken.cot (talk) 14:15, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

@Kraken.cot:  Not done. That list is awfully long. It might make it difficult to scroll to the bottom of this article, particularly for readers using mobile devices. I think the page you linked is a good enough resource for this. CityOfSilver 21:06, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Arbitrary heading

The origin of the Khatri caste is very clear they are not surely Kshatriyas, though the powerful U.S. Jewish media wants to make them warriors so as to create a confusion in the Indian caste system but there are no takers for this. The origin of the Khatri is when the Kshatiya had relations with underprivileged castes. The Khatri is mainly a shrewd businessman like the Jew thus loved by the latter. There are many kinds of Khatris and the Khatri from U.P. is usually much better looking than the Punjabi one and more traditional thus respected. They U.P. Khatris have their origin from Jehlum region and came to U.P. several hundred years ago. Since the Khatri has no Gotra they marry anyone for materialistic gains. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.242.175 (talk) 15:32, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Khatri is mixed buffer caste of merchants like the Jew thus very close to the Jew. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.162.108.227 (talk) 10:13, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The Punjabi Khatri like most Punjabis are dark and short. They are not Kshatriyas as the Jews portray them. Both Jews and them are linked as they love money. The Khatri of U.P. has come from Jhelam and is tall and light. The Khatri are a mixed caste.

All khatris have Gotra. Who told you this?? And looking at their reputations- four to five Indian Army Generals (highest from any Indian caste), Sukhdev Thapar (on whose name Shahidi Diwas is celebrated), Arun Kheterpal (Army), Vikram Batra (Popularly known as Sher Singh by his fellow army men), All Sikh Gurus, Hari Singh Nalwa (one who used to attack at 12 o clock at night).

They marry anyone because they have grown up to understand that it does not matter unlike other communities who still believe in honour killing and so. May be you should read more about them.

I dont know any community so versatile, spread all across from Army to Administration to high profile jobs. You may further read the list of popular khatris in Panjabi Hindus wiki article. (https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Punjabi_Hindus)

Absolute lie, ""The Khatri were originally engaged in the weaving of silk saris, and subsequently some of them became merchants""

It is entirely wrong. I know the source of it, but one has to understand that, though it has been published by reputed press, but it is not peer reviewed or cross verified and does not constitute the secondary reference.

Part of 10 Gurus is largely underpresented. How Hind ki chadar phrase came into existance? How Guru Gobind singh sacrificed his four sons over his disciples? Most popular khatris have been grouped in the panjabi hinndus categories. Why khokhrain khatris are not described? How Gadka (martial art) originated?

The misrepresentation or selective presentation of literature in order to demean the whole community is an insult to a community which gave Nobel Laureate Har Gobind Khurana, NASA astranaut Kalpana Chawla and freedom fighter Madan Lal Dhungra, and first women IPS officer Kiran Bedi. It does not present the Kapoor dynasty nor describe any of the popular communities. My goodness, article describe their origin as silk trader. Shameful and utter non-sense. Lets talk some sense, Silk came to Indian continent from China in 400AD, so before 400 AD, khatri caste did not existed? and how one can describe the account of kekayii (khatri queen of Dashrath) in Ramayana which was written in 500 BC (i agree it is mythological but it supports the contention of existence of that caste in 500 BC).

I dont know, which silk industry is owned by Khatris. Khatris originated in North India and one who have migrated to Gujarat adopted to Silk trade. This is the fact.

Indeed Khatri is a different pronunciation of kshatriya. I dont understand, why this article even exist, it is so incomplete and most other community members are making best effort to distort it.

During the period of Alexander The Great

Khatri(Xathri) helped Alexander in building the Ship and supplied it to Alexander's 5th Base, Khatri surrendered to Alexander and delivered ships to him at the junction of Acesines and Indus.

How do you know, this xathri is khatri???

KAILA an upper caste amongst Punjabi Khatri Community Gotra Surya are pure Hindu Punjabi Khatri exist in large spread through out Northern India besides settled down overseas.These community rank highest in terms of education.decency,culture.Source of Information verified from Purohit.(Certified)

References

Moved post

Amongst Khatri samaj Surname Kaila,mehra,Kapoor,Khanna etc are the prominent most upper caste in Khatri gotra surya.We are prooud of few famed khatris like TILAK RAJ KAILA who acclaimed six medals,Anil Kaila the first person in Haryana to install and commission a National Level project at Saraswati Tirath Pehowa,One more Anil Kaila CEO Rimmels,power solution,Sudhir kaila a prominent land lord & a Fianacier,Nikka mal kaila a seth wealth richman known for owner of huge land and a landlord and into financing to help the needy and poor,Parvesh kaila renowned name in the history of Music industry,Harbans lal kaila a prominent figure Garrison Engineer MES,Sunil Kaila a banker and a devotee known all over india M.COM CAIIB are few prominent personalities of Norther India Hindu punjabi khatri gotra surya besides Khann,balraj Khanna a stadium named after his name,Raj kapoor famous actor viz Rishi kapoor,Vinod mehra etc.All are upper Hindu punjabi khatri caste.

controversial

The Khatri were originally engaged in the weaving of silk saris.......[24]

Can the editor of the page share any other reference in support of it?? Infact the cited reference gives a snippet view, so I don't think, it should be mentioned in this way or if it is mentioned the language should be diluted to reflect that there is only one reference and that too gives a snippet view but it is not supported by any other source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirtimaansyal (talk • contribs) 12:37, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 July 2018

Khatris make their own place everywhere they go. quoted by the ansaris in Qatar - please search for abdulrafay ansari on facebook if you have any problem.

As once said in urdu in 1980s "Khatri apni jaga khud banate hain" Usmankhatri97 (talk) 16:15, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

 Not done Please cite a WP:RELIABLE Source for this claim. WP:Facebook is not a reliable source. when you provide source also mention what change you want to be made. --DBigXray 21:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Sikh Gurus

The guru Gobind Singh was not of any caste and was the one to abolish caste in Sikhism and create one unified brotherhood called the Khalsa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.226.206 (talk) 05:01, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2019

Garra Sheikh's are also belongs to a Khatri Sardar family Ahmad Hassan Sh (talk) 09:13, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:53, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Varan bhai Gurudas

I want to make several changes into the article

1st, the perspective of Khatris about themselves, that they are the surviving descendants of pure Aryan Kshatriyas. The support to this view by historian Baij Nath Puri.

2nd, we don't know which caste Dashrath Sharma actually referred to as Savji and Pattegar community also call themselves Khatri, they are traditionally in tailoring occupation. The book in question is about the rule of Chauhans in Rajasthan, it is unlikely that he was referring to the Khatris of Punjab. We must make it clear that it is possible Sharma was referring to some other Khatri caste.

3rd. Etymology of Khatri term, it's history and the fact that similar terms like Khatriya, Khotriyo, Chhatri, Chhatria, Chhetri are used to refer to Kshatriya in different languages modern sub continent languages. To establish that the term Khatri is nothing but punjabi variation of Kshatriya, I must be allowed to cite a few verses from Punjabi works like Guru Granth Sahib, Dasam Granth etc.

4th, the fact that Bhai Gurudas defined Khatris as Kshatriya and Rajputs as Vaishya must also be added. This has been mentioned in the Hardeep Singh Syan book which is already cited in the article.

5th, the origin section must be divided into three columns, Pure Vedic Kshatriya theory, Vaishya Theory and Mixed Caste theory. Each being neutrally presented without bias. Sayanha7 (talk) 11:59, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

The Guru grant sahib, etc would be unreliable. and Puri's source is likely be POV. Secondly the origin theories are all taken care of in the origins section. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:06, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Khatri are kshatriya

Both mean same. Thank u. Pandya101 (talk) 18:17, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Khatris are considered a standard class in Punjab .But in rest of India many Khatris are classified as scheduled castes and many others even are classified to be of lower status then even maha dalits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.53.92 (talk) 22:52, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Sources

Failing to see how a reliable source from a book and a book on census data are deemed unreliable. Does any newer source superseede the information provided as per WP:RS ? if so, post it instead of removing sources

Abh9850 (talk) 22:03, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@Gotitbro:

I have linked these 3 sources respectively

Ancient India as Described by Ptolemy: Being a Translation of the Chapters ... Rose, H. A. (Horace Arthur); Ibbetson, Denzil; Maclagan, Edward Douglas (1911). J. H. Hutton (1933).

Could you explain how each of these 3 violates WP:RS  ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abh9850 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Ancestral Occupation

The "silk weaving" is not actually borne out by the sources. The first source, the Levi one, says "keeps the accounts, does the banking business, and buys the grain". The third source, Lorenzen, is less specific but implies that Khatris are from the merchant class. The second source, the "Surti Khatri's" one, only states that the silk and cotton handloom weaving in the city of Surat was dominated by Khatri's but says nothing about Khatri's elsewhere (who, if we follow the first two sources, were largely merchants). I'm restating that sentence. --regentspark (comment) 19:53, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2020

The Khatris (Punjabi) or Kshatriyas (Sanskrit, (K) silent) are a north Indian community that originated in the Potwar Plateau of Punjab. This region is historically connected with the composition of the Vedas and classics like the Mahabharata and Ashtadhyayi. In the old varna (caste) system the Kshatriya were members of the Hindu military order who as administrators and rulers, were tasked with protecting Hindu Dharma, and serving humanity. In the course of time, however, as a result of economic and political exigencies, Khatris also expanded into mercantile occupations.It is important to note that many of the Khatri clans (gotras) are common with many jatt castes.

When India was divided to placate the demands of its Muslims for a country of their own, most of the Khatris in the Panjab which was divided to create Pakistan migrated to India. In one of the worst human trajedies of modern history, which resulted in the deaths of untold thousands, millions of Hindu and Sikh families, many of them of the Khatri caste, were forced to abandon their heriditary family lands and flee to the Indian side of the British imposed dividing line. Today Khatris live in all regions of India, but are concentrated in East Punjab, Haryana, Delhi and Uttar Pradesh. While most Khatris are Hindu, some are also Sikh, some Muslim and even a small minority are Jain. Khatris of all these faiths collectively form one community. In modern times, the Khatri play a significant role in the Indian economy, serving as businessmen, civil and government administrators, landlords and military officials.

 Not done Please provide reliable sources. --regentspark (comment) 15:48, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

There is an effort going on to confuse the Khatris (Kshatriyas) of Punjab with Khatris (Brahma Kshatriyas) found in Sindh, Gujarat and Maharashtra.

I can see a concentrated effort by some to confuse the Khatris of Punjab with different castes with similar names found across India, as far as South.

There are three castes in India which use the name Khatri to identify themselves-

1. Punjabi Kshatriyas - as in Punjabi dialect, the word Kshatriya is pronounced as Khatri. All the medieval records, be it Vara Bhai Gurudas, Guru Granth Sahib, works of Ferishta, Mughal records including Ain-i-Akbari, Char-Bagh-I-Punjab, unanimously declare that there is no difference between a Kshatriya and a Khatri and that both are one and the same. The ancestral occupation of the community were trade, administration and military services.

2. Brahmakshatriyas, found in Sindh, Gujarat, Rajasthan and Maharashtra. The community is of silk weavers and and claim that they were Kshatriya at the time of mythical Parashurama, but left the profession of soldering since.

3. Somvanshiya Sahasrarjun Kshatriya, the community is found across Western, and Southern India under different names, such as Patkar in Maharashtra, Bhuja Kshatriya in Tamil Nadu etc. Like the Brahmakshatriyas but unlike Punjabi Kshatriyas, they are also a community of weavers and tailors

The three communities are entirely different, in such case, we must either have three separate articles for them or let this particular article represent only the Punjabi Kshatriyas. The quotation by Dasrath Sharma as well as the recently added Maharashtra quotation are about the Brahmakshatriyas, and not Punjabi Kshatriyas.

Also, I fail to understand that if colonial records supporting the Kshatriya claim of khatris, such as the observations of Risley are not allowed then why other colonial observations, calling the community as silk weavers (true only for West Indian Brahmakshatriyas), are being allowed a place?

In the ritual rank section, I would like to add citations by Ferishta, Jean Baptiste Tavernier, CV Vaidya and internationally acclaimed historian Baij Nath Puri, will that be allowed? Or is this article meant to be anti Khatri by very nature? Sayanha7 (talk) 11:12, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Moved message from my talk page by Sayanha7

Why did you remove all the additions made by me in Khatri page, while keeping the other unsubstantiated claims in the origin section of khatris?

The entire new addition to the page containing a Maharashtrian quotation is about the Koshti community who are also called Khatri in local dialect, has been given a place in the page about Khatri caste, despite Koshtis having a page of their own. Most of the claims of khatris being mixed caste or weavers are actually about a caste called Brahmakshatriya, found in West India, who are also called Khatri. Just using the similarity of name, all this is being forced upon Punjabi Kshatriyas (Khatris), and whenever any content favoring the Khatris is added, it is immediately deleted. What sort of bias is this.

There is a claim on the page that Purnima Dhavan says the Kshatriya claim of a the Khatris arise as a "confusion" due to conflation of the words. I clicked on the citation provided, and found nothing as suggested. She only says that the words were conflated, but never mentions any confusion.

Similarly, towards the end of the article, an entire personal opinion has been given with the same citation of Dhavan. And again, the citation doesn't match with the content. -previous message by Sayanha7

Sayanha7 , I think you are correct about Dhavan. It looks like someone added a personal opinion. Other sources were removed because they were not WP:RS. This is as per consensus on wikipedia. Positive opinion is also there - for example - see post independence professionals which means they are an advanced caste. I think there is similar positive opinion by Karve - will try to find and add it. You are right that we should identify which Khatri group the source is referring to to avoid confusion.LukeEmily (talk) 15:37, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

[edit] correction, I had not added the Dhavan source - someone else did - but I just read page 36,37. It seems that it is not a personal opinion . It is cited on the page. Please see the quote about janeu and end of page 36 and start of 37. LukeEmily (talk) 15:41, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

What positive view are you going to add, by saying that the community which was/is considered ritually purest in Punjab (only next to Saraswat Brahmins), is so low that not even Shudras would accept water from them? That too by using a quotation referring to an entirely different community.

What was wrong with Tavernier quote? May I add quotations from books by Vanit Nalwa and Baij Nath Puri (internationally acclaimed historian). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sayanha7 (talk • contribs) 15:44, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Sayanha7, I have fixed the text that the historian Gupchup is referring to Marathi Khatris only(not Punjabi). I agree that Punjabi Khatris are an elite group and the last section on the page shows that. Please feel free to add anything that is WP:RS. I agree Baij Nath Puri is a respected historian. LukeEmily (talk) 15:54, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

The only permanent solution to this problem is by having three separate articles on Punjabi Khatris, West Indian Brahmakshatriya (Khatri) weavers and South Indian SSK. Unless that, these confusions will keep arising. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sayanha7 (talk • contribs) 16:02, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Since the quote itself says Koshti (Koshta), it must be mentioned in the introduction as well. Otherwise, it seems like Brahmins of Maharashtra resented claims by Punjabi Khatris of Maharashtra. Sayanha7 (talk) 16:06, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I rechecked the quote. They are specifically referring to the Marathi group. LukeEmily (talk) 16:18, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

The quote also specifically says that apart from Bombay, they (Koshtis) are considered as Panchal, everywhere. The quote, has no relation to the Khatri community in question. Whether it should be in the article, itself is a question. Sayanha7 (talk) 17:10, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Panchal is a completely separate caste. Sayanha7 (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

The quote specifically mentions Khatri. There are Khatris in Maharashtra since several centuries. They were silk weavers. Anyway, it should be clear that the quote is not in anyway related to punjabi khatris. Also since we are using exact quote and not an interpretation by editors, it is not WP:SYNTH or WP:ORLukeEmily (talk) 19:43, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

1 - I've read the 36th and 37th pages of Dhavan's book. All she says is that the words Khatri was often conflated with Kshatriya in Punjab, based on similar pronunciation. A correct observation. Nowhere she says that there was a confusion between these two words and that the Khatri claim of Kshatriyahood arised out of it. This is entirely the readers interpretation.

2 - in regards to the second section right at the end. It is true that Dhavan ponders upon contradiction in Sikh scriptures, where at one hand the Varna differences are renounced and on the other hand, Gurus are hailed as Khatris (Kshatriyas). However, the words used in the section are not exactly the same as in the book. A large part of it is again author's interpretion. Secondly, the purpose of the section is to present various views about origin of khatris and not the Sikh view on caste system. Hence it is irrelevant. Sayanha7 (talk) 17:34, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I do not have enough knowledge about the caste system in Punjab to comment on this. 1)Do punjabi khatris wear sacred thread 2)did Punjabi Khatris study vedas in the past? (even most brahmins do not study Vedas today). In any case, if you want to put the exact words in the book, I do not think anyone will have objections. LukeEmily (talk) 19:43, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

1 - Yes, all real Khatris (not Brahmakshatriya or ssk) have always been wearing sacred thread. All the Janamsakhis (biographies) of Guru Nanak mention about his upanayana incident, though they differ on whether or not he accepted initiation into Vedic fold. In pre partition times, Khatris favored to have their chudakarana (mundan) and Upanayana (jeneu) ceremonies performed at Babe Lalu Jas Rai shrine in Dipalpur. Babe Lalu is kuladevta of some Khatri clans and is revered by entire community. After partition, similar shrines to deity were set up in Amritsar and Delhi. Those Khatris who can, go to these shrines for the ceremony, those who can't, get it conducted either in home or nearby Hindu temple.

Sayanha7 (talk) 21:51, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

http://jaibabalalooji.com/#contact

This is website of Babe Lalu Jas Rai. It lists timing for sacred thread ceremony. Sayanha7 (talk) 22:17, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

In the first citation - It should be said that according to Purnima Dhavan, the words Khatri and Kshatriya were often conflated (using exact words). Nowhere she alludes to any confusion or Khatri claim to Kshatriyahood arising out of it.

Second citation is irrelevant to the subject in hand as it is merely discussing Sikh view of caste and not the origin or status of khatris.

If you are having any difficulties in understanding any part of the two pages, prey do ask. I'm willing to help you.

Sayanha7 (talk) 04:21, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Note that sources like these are not reliable. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:44, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Wasn't giving it as a source, nor attempted any edits on its basis. It was just for Luke Emily to see, as he/she asked me a question about whether sacred thread ceremony is followed among khatris. 🙂 Sayanha7 (talk) 12:44, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

1- is there a problem if I quote Puri verbatim which says "The Khatris as an integral part of the old Kshatriya caste no doubt differ from neo-Kshatriyas, Rajputras or Rajputs."

After last edit "no doubt" was removed.

2 - Since we are mentioning the names of all the authors whose views have been cited in the article, let us mention David N. Lorenzen in the paragraph where it is said that most scholars dispute these facts. Otherwise it comes across more as a general view than an individual opinion. Would like to know both your views Sayanha7 (talk) 14:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

I already replied in my talk page. Let me reiterate. I believe you can put quotes on that sentence from Puri's and add the exact words. What are you trying to do with Lorenzen's source, could you make it clear here the quotes you are going to write? @LukeEmily and Heba Aisha:. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:52, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

"However, these claims are disputed by most of the scholars who consider castes in north India, like Khatri and Kayastha to be merchant castes who claim higher status to befit the educational and economic progress they made in the past."

I want to add "according to Lorenzen," in this paragraph, as have been done in all preceeding paragraphs while citing scholars and experts. Sayanha7 (talk) 15:51, 25 October 2020 (UTC) Otherwise it is appearing like a rather general view than an observation made by a certain Scholar. Sayanha7 (talk) 15:55, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

This source does mention that sentence However, these claims are disputed by most of the scholars who consider castes in north India, like Khatri and Kayastha to be merchant castes who claim higher status to befit the educational and economic progress they made in the past. and according to it David N. Lorenzen is the editor of the book, so possibly can't quote him. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:14, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Sayanha7, what regional Khatris is Puri talking about? Is it Punjabi only? Please can you add full quote from the book?

I can see it partially only.LukeEmily (talk) 11:46, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Even I can see it partially now, though it was accessible earlier. His book is about the Khatri caste only which is known as Punjabi khatris.

The other Khatris like Marathi or Rajasthani are not regional variations but a wholly different castes who happen to use a similar name only. Sayanha7 (talk) 14:26, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

As I earlier said, there are three communities who use the name Khatri.

Punjab origin Kshatriyas Brahmakshatriyas (weavers) and also SSK community. Sayanha7 (talk) 14:28, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

These weavers (Brahmakshatriyas) are found across West India. The Koshti quote in all probability is about them. The Somvanshi Sahasrarjun Kshatriya (SSK) have also started identifying as Khatri, though I'm not sure how long they have been doing so. Puri's book is about the popular Khatri caste (Punjabi khatris) only. Sayanha7 (talk) 14:39, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Khatri - Kshatriya

@Param.arora: I'm removing this because it is unsourced. Please see WP:V and WP:RS for how to find sources and how to cite content. (To be clear, you're welcome to re-add the content if you can find a reliable source.)--RegentsPark (comment) 13:30, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@Param.arora: (pinging again since the earlier ping was messed up)--RegentsPark (comment) 13:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

May be you are aware that Khatris are clearly Kshatriyas. The British have tried their best to demote the status of Khatris to make their loyal subjects more powerful. I am happy you do not contest the logic of the changes I made. I will be back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Param.arora (talk • contribs) 14:10, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

You may be right about the status of Khatris or you may be wrong but, on Wikipedia, you need to provide reliable sources to back up any assertion.--RegentsPark (comment) 17:00, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Moving beyond History

It is clearly visible that are constantly arguing about the History of Khatris (that too a distant history).

Please make valuable contributions to the page by providing the latest and current info about the Khatri caste such as their concentration areas, occupations, notable persons, political inclinations etc. 

The Khatris have also formed organizations such as Akhil Bhartiya Khatri Mahasabha at national, regional, and district levels.

The latest caste census conducted in 2011 is by far the most recent development on castes.

"Khatri" is not a thing of the past only. Please understand. Wikipedia is not a History book. Param.arora (talk) 05:48, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

According to the Commission Reports by Justice Gurnam Singh (1990) and Justice K.C. Gupta (2012), Khatri is a forward caste socially, educationally and economically. It was reported that "despite of being uprooted from their homeland", Arora/Khatri community has high literacy rate. A economic survey conducted by Maharishi Dayanand University states that Khatri people have good representation both in government as well as private sector. They are both in business, services and other fields. They are "economically well-off and not dependent on money-lending or shopkeeping". They are engaged as "doctors, engineers, administrators and are represented in white-collar jobs. PracticalYogaEducator (talk) 15:05, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

The role of Khatris in India's fight for Independence

Can you all please help create and expand this new section on Khatris?

The lead is as follows:

Sukhdev Thapar, a famous Indian martyr who sacrificed his life for India's independence from foreign rulers. Param.arora (talk) 14:28, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ohnoitsjamie: @Chariotrider555: hey there! Do you think this will be a good section, to begin with? Param.arora (talk) 14:32, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

References

Dominance of Khatris in Bollywood.

Can somoebody please help create and enhance this new section. The lead is as follows:

Prithviraj Kapoor founded both the renowned Kapoor family of actors and the Prithvi Theatre in Bombay (now Mumbai). Param.arora (talk) 14:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ohnoitsjamie: @Chariotrider555: hey there! Do you think this will be a good section, to begin with? Param.arora (talk) 14:32, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Yea if you could find reliable sources that talk about Khatri dominance in Bollywood, then you could warrant a new section, but at this stage I would just create a Notable People section where lists of all prominent Khatris can be kept. Chariotrider555 (talk) 14:34, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

References

Khatri donot rule a single kingdom

Kshtriye and khatri both are different caste. According to rigveda kshtriye is a varna which means only warrior consider as kshtriye . Kshtriye is consider as Rajanya in rigeveda indian most oldest book is rigveda which describe Khstriye as a Rajanya they are the rulers and warrior. Rajput are real descand of Kshtriye because they ruled and fight for india in every single century . On the other side khatri donot even rule a single year . Khatri donot have a single king who rule india . Khatri is not kshtriye because from starting to end there is no khatri ruler found . If wee see from 6 century to 18 century rajput ruled many states of India where as khatri donot even rule a single state Kshtriye (talk) 21:33, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

No source suggests that Rajput caste King ruled the whole of India.

Before the inception of "castes", there were varna/kul/jaati. The kshatriya kings have indeed ruled the whole of Earth as per Mahabharata and other ancient sanskrit texts. Wikieditor1008 (talk) 11:54, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

The article already mentions a kingdom. Not to forget, many chiefs in the indian forces belonged to the Khatri caste. Also, martyrs and freedom fighters and high ranking Ministers of in the Indian government.

In the recent history, the British ruled the majority of the world. What was their caste? Clearly, they were

neither Rajputs nor Khatris. 

 Wikieditor1008 (talk) 12:07, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Why do we have content related to Koshti caste here?

There is some content related to the Koshti caste which is referred as "Marathi Khatri" in source. I removed the entire content but LukeEmily reverted me saying that the content is relevant for this article.

LukeEmily, I wish to convey that this article is about the North Indian caste (Punjabi-Sindhi) named Khatri. Content related to other castes is simply irrelevant. The lead of our article reads: "Khatri is a caste found in Northern India and Pakistan, mostly from the Punjab region." Its pretty obvious that the Punjabi Khatri caste is not at all related with the Koshtis.

During the Sanskritisation era, many communities adopted the "Rajput" title to lay claim on Kshatriya status. Examples of such communities are Lodhi Rajputs, Kirar Rajputs, Chhipi Rajputs, Magar Rajputs etc. Same way, a few communities adopted the "Khatri" title due to its resemblance with the term "Kshatriya". The Marathi caste Koshti is one such caste.

As we don't have detailed description about Lodhi, Magar, Kirar castes in Rajput article, same way content pertaining to Koshti caste in this article is simply undue. Just because the writer prefixes or suffixes "Khatri" to the caste name, it doesn't become eligible for inclusion in this article. Shinjoya (talk) 15:55, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

The source clearly uses the word Khatri. Khatris were not given vedic ritual status in Maharashtra. What you are doing is WP:OR. This page is about the Khatri caste that is all over India including western India, not only Punjab. This is about Khatri caste and the source is clear.LukeEmily (talk) 06:19, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Shinjoya, FYI, Rajput themselves were originally Shudras who were Sanskritized. Khatri, as far as I know is an educated/advanced caste unlike the Rajputs. The quote is only about the ritual status and that is not so important except for religious reasons.LukeEmily (talk) 06:36, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

LukeEmily, On one hand you say Khatri is an educated and elite caste and on the other hand, you are adding content which degrades them and then you are saying that the content is not "so" important. Being editors, its our job to not let any undue content added in the article which may create a false impression of the group. How much importance readers give to the content is completely upto them.

I raised a very valid point. If we don't have quotes regarding fake Rajputs like Kirars, Magars, Lodhis, Chhipis in Rajput article then why should we include a quote about Koshti caste in this article just because source have a passing mention of "Marathi Khatri"? I can present numerous sources pertaining to low castes which have a passing mention of the term "Kshatriya". So, should we include all those castes in the Kshatriya article?

With your latest edit, you have tried to change the complete meaning of the article and that too, without due discussion. I have observed in your other article edits that you do WP:SYNTHESIS a lot. Source says something else and you make a different meaning of it to prove yourself correct. A similar behaviour has been observed here too when you completely fabricated the implications from sources. In this edit, you added Marathi in languages (infobox). And when I conveyed to you that the source doesn't say that, you came up with this edit. On cross-cheking the source, I found that it says "Khatris are found in Delhi" while you claim that it says they are found in Maharashtra. Shinjoya (talk) 07:07, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Khatri as a caste has its origin in Punjab. The Khatris in other states are those Khatris who have migrated from United Punjab at one point or another.

Koshti are not Khatris. Their mention in the article is WP:UNDUE

With largest concentration, the Khatris in Haryana too have migrated from Punjab, without exception. There are innumerable resorces claiming Punjab as the origin of the Khatri caste. Wikieditor1008 (talk) 11:29, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

The Chhetri in Nepal also call themselves Khatris but say they have no relation with the Khatris of Punjab. The punjabis say likewise.

Their mention in the article would be Undue, like the koshta Wikieditor1008 (talk) 12:10, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Muslim Khatris

Why are muslim khatris a seperate article. that seems rather redundant. there are entire mohalla (neighborhoods) in Pakistan where muslims identify as khatris, carry khatri clan names and ackknowledge their relation to hindu khatris. so why is this a different page?

Upon acceptance of Islam, the association with caste and varna system was given up. Wikieditor1008 (talk) 12:22, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Confusing the punjabi khatris with a weaver clan of maharastra.

It is clear that a weaver caste of maharastra is constantly being used to misrepresent a caste called "puunjabi khatris" in official documents of the indian government.

Your lack of understanding is misrepresenting a large group people against the advisories issued by the government of india.

Read about the the khatris originating from Punjab and do not confuse two different groups of people. Wikieditor1008 (talk) 19:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Where is your evidence for this? If they are being confused, the reader will also be unless we disambiguate. - Sitush (talk) 19:24, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

In addition to what Sitush just said, the sources in the above section are from Cambridge and Oxford and UCB etc. and are not government sources. If you have any specific sourced information that applies to Khatris from Punjab, we can always add it. Also, if any source is talking about a particular Khatri in a specific location, that should also be specified to avoid applying it to the entire group as you say. However, are Gujrati Khatris not relevant to this page(as an example)? The infobox does say Gujarat. Please can you see the list of quotes and citations in the above section? Thanks,LukeEmily (talk) 20:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Khatris in Gujarat are relevant as long as they are known to have travelled from the Punjab region at some point of time in the past (as many sources claim) Wikieditor1008 (talk) 04:32, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Please read "Report of haryana backward classes commission - 2012" available in pdf format from the govt website. You will have to acknowledge that Khatri as a caste represents the Punjabi Khatris in India.

In the UP state (India) for example, for official purposes the caste is called "punjabi khatris" including the known sub-castes of the Khatris.

Wikieditor1008 (talk) 04:36, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I hope you understand the caste is one of the most sensitive issues for the public of India. So please be gentle.

At the moment, leaders of the non-ruling parties are demanding in parliament (monsoon session) that the ruling government of India releases the data of the latest Caste Census of India (2011).

This is the most awaited data concerning the castes of India.

Thanks for your attention and concerns

Peace Wikieditor1008 (talk) 04:40, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

As a fairly general rule, we avoid government & related sources for things related to caste. They are often ambiguous and always highly politicised. For example, over 2000 changes have been made to the OBC lists in under 30 years.

We prefer academic sources. - Sitush (talk) 05:59, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

There are highly qualified administrators working for the Government of India. Academic sources include government reports.

Wikieditor1008 (talk) 06:43, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Please also note that public universities of india have academic credentials too. In context with the academic sources. Regards

Sorry but you have also included sources by British government officials. For your all satisfaction, you may please go through the list of khatris (constructively) to learn that the origin of khatris, in general, can be easily traced back to the United Province of Punjab. Thanks for your nurturing support and your patience Wikieditor1008 (talk) 06:52, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Which British government officials? And we cannot draw our own conclusions from lists - see WP:OR.

You are not going to "win" regarding Indian government sources. The consensus regarding their unsuitability had existed for at least a decade here - I was at the heart of establishing it. - Sitush (talk) 07:03, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I belive that the current version of the page is more or less balanced. Thanks to all the contributing editors. Wikieditor1008 (talk) 07:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Now I am confused. It is only a few hours ago that you were challenging it in this section & little has changed since. Plus, there is the outstanding issue of what appears to be your mass removal of content sourced to academics, which you have so far failed to justify in this section. - Sitush (talk) 07:15, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

However, the khatri caste, has its origin in Punjab, as reinstated in all caste censuses conducted in India and Punjab. Even before the British Raj, the Sikh Literature mentions the Khatris (in Punjab). Unrelated to the native weaver caste of maharashtra called koshta.

I rest my case for now. Cheers Wikieditor1008 (talk) 07:18, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Of course Sikh literature mentions Punjab - that place is the heart of Sikhism - but it doesn't mean they are or were not elsewhere . And Raj censuses are not reliable. You seem still not to be understanding WP:OR, WP:,RS and WP:CONSENSUS. - Sitush (talk) 07:38, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Is Koshta relevant to this dispute? - Sitush (talk) 09:15, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Wikieditor1008, the Khatri caste existed in Maharashtra long before Independence and in Gujrat too, probably since 1600's/1700's. The source clearly mentions Khatri and there is no confusion of Khatri with Koshti as Wikieditor1008 alleges. For example, please refer to "anthopological measurements in maharashtra" by Karve pg.16. Kosti and Khatri are mentioned separately in Maharashtra. Later in the book, you will find that Karve mentions that Khatris were traditional silk weavers and claim to have been in Maharashtra for at least the last century. So the Khatris were there all over India. Koshtis in Maharashtra were also weavers and the Khatris were also weavers. Karve says that post independence the Khatris in Konkan belonged to the professional group(similar to what is stated in post-Independence section). But she puts Koshtis in another group. There is no relation between Khatri and Koshti other than the fact that both are the weaving castes and are mentioned separately and hence there is no confusion. It is not as is the Koshti were mistaken as Khatris. The quote is for the Khatri caste as well as Sonars hence relevant to this article. Please let me know if you need quotes from Karve.LukeEmily (talk) 00:29, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Stop Vandalizing

Wikipedia is an education platform, the trolls should stay away from here. I have been noting somebody keeps vandalizing this particular page and keeps removing people mentioned in the "List of Khatris" page. Please have some decency [comment by Lamperdamper]

Hi @Lamperdamper:, please can you point out the edits that you think are vandalism? Please provide diffs. Anything that is incorrect can be corrected. Wikipedia is based on WP:RS - not personal opinions or personal knowledge. This page is being edited based on high quality reliable sources only since we understand that caste is a sensitive issue in India. Hence editing is done by strictly following the sources as there is no intent to disparage or promote any community. If you are talking about List of Khatris, please discuss on the talk page there. I do not know much about Khatri notables to comment on that. Thanks LukeEmily (talk) 11:31, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi @LukeEmily:

" According to some scholars, when the Muslim community first arrived in Benaras, the Khatri Hindus dominated the weaving industry there. These Muslims learned the technique of weaving from the Khatris and soon came to be known as Chira-i-Baaf or 'fine cloth weavers'.[28][29]

Khatris (and Kayasthas) in north-India and Rajput ruled states were the main communities that worked as scribes. The arrival of Mughals gave them advantage due to their willingness to learn Persian. However, this profession often created conflicts with the Brahmin scribes. In Deccan, these north Indian scribes lost their advantage with the rise of the Brahmin Peshwas who discontinued the use of Persian and started using Marathi "

" In Gujarat, during the colonial rule, Khatris contributed greatly to the weaving industry there. They as well as the Muslim and Kunbi weavers purchased imported yarn in the 1840s. In Mandvi, the silk products were highly valued and the Khatri dyers would work in the pits on the bank of the river Rukmavati because the water was supposed to have special properties to give steadfast colors. These products were often exported to east Africa.[49][50][51] In Dhamadka, "block printing cloth" was the traditional occupation of the Khatri men since the seventeenth century"

" Everyone does what he wants, Sonars have become Brahmins, Treemungalacharya was insulted by throwing cowdung at him in Pune, but he has no shame and still calls himself a Brahmin. Similarly a Khatri or Koshti who are included in Panchal at places other than Bombay, call themselves Kshatriya in Bombay and say their needles are the arrows and their thimbles are the sheaths. How surprising that those Sonars and Khatris at the hands of whom even Shudras will not take water have become Brahmins and Kshatriyas. In short day by day higher castes are disappearing and lower castes are prospering"

These particular sections have been written with the intent of maligning the community. Khatris of Punjab have nothing to do with the Khatris of other states. Obviously, now Punjabi Khatris have moved from modern day Pakistan to various states of India in 1947, it can confuse these 1947 Khatris with the other Khatris. There is no connection between the Gujrati, Marathi, Andhra Khatris to that of Punjab. Just like there is no connection of Nepali Khatris to Punjabi Khatri. There is also no connection between Haryana Khatris (Jats with the surname Khatri) and Punjabi Khatris. Telling that they are silk weavers and scribes is absolutely wrong.

All these silk weaving castes of Maharashtra, Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh and surrounding areas are the same stock and are in no way connected to Punjabi Khatris. Bearing the Khatri name is a mere coincidence

Punjabi Khatris = (Dhaighar, Barahghar, Bavanjaighar and Sareen) + Aroras + Khokarains + Soods + UP Khatris (ones sharing the surnames with khatris)

Just having the same name does not clarify that they are same

Just because Johnny Lever shares name with Johnny Depp does not mean they are related.

See WP:NOTVANDAL Sitush (talk) 13:35, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Change the Article to "Punjabi Khatris" and separate the information from the other Khatris

It has been genetically proved that Jatts of Punjab are related to Jaats of Haryana. It has been genetically proved that Gujjars from Kashmir, Haryana to Afghanistan are in fact the same people.

However, there is absolutely no proof relating Punjabi Khatris to that of Gujarat, Telengana etc

Uttar Pradesh Khatris in fact have retained the same surnames and same ancestory to that of Punjabis even though they have adopted Hindi and forgotten Punjabi. But we can say that UP Khatris are the same stock since they have the same surnames For example : Kanika Kapoor source : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcxVSoCv5VY But it is also well documented they moved from Punjab somewhere in 17th and 18th centuries

However same cant be said for non-UP Khatris.

About the Gujrati, Marathi, Andhra Khatris, A. There are no genetic and ancestral proofs relating them. In fact they look completely different from Punjabi Khatris. B. They have no common surnames and Gotras C. There are no proper citation when did they leave Punjab and how did it happen. D. They neither follow the Punjabi Khatri cultural practices nor the rituals

Without sharing the same culture, language and ancestry we can say that they are different people (unless proved otherwise)

In fact, the only Gujrati population that has the same ancestry to Khatris are the Gujrati Lohanas who are proved to have come from Sindh and Punjab. They also claim to be originally Kshatriyas and descendants of Luv and Kush like Punjabi Khatris and they also entered Business and Trade later. In fact, they also share common surnames with Khatris

There are no concrete proofs relating the Punjabi Khatris (that came to this country in 1947) to that of the other Khatris. Till then, the Article for Punjabi Khatris should be different to that of Gujarati, Andhra, Maratha etc Khatris until we are able to achieve proofs.

I have removed parts of the article that are related to non-punjabi Khatris. Almost half of this article is about Silk weaving Khatris of West and South India who only share the same name with Punjabi Khatris and very strategically the editors have included their parts in the middle of the article, even without any citation relating Punjabi Khatris to others. .

" INFORMATION IS POWER, DISINFORMATION IS ABUSE OF POWER " - NEWTON LEE

We do not use genetics in caste articles. - Sitush (talk) 13:37, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Etymology Section

The word Khatri is a direct derivative of the word Kshatriya. This section should be added.

See WP:VNT. - Sitush (talk) 13:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

On the Kshatriya vs Trader status

On most of the British conduct censuses, Khatris have been mentioned as Traders and Businessman This is absolutely true. But it does not imply that Khatris have always been traders. They were a part of Kshatriya varn and they later entered into trading professions. The word Khatri is a direct derivative of Kshatriya. Just like Baniya came from Vanija and Rajput came from Rajputra (son of king)

Interestingly, British gave a "Martial Race Status" to all those tribes and clans that supported them. They claimed that clans involved in Agriculture are of martial race and hence are of Kshatriya nature. It is also well documented that how the Khatris were against British. They refused to join British army. Madan Lal Dhingra (a khatri) who killed Sir William Hutt Curzon Wyllie. This resulted in British having a bias against Khatris Jallianwala Bagh is another incident when a group of predominantly Khatris were killed by the British.

Most of the information we gain many Indian caste and clans are in fact taken from British sources. In the case of Khatris, most information taken in this article came from British sources. The Question is - Are the British sources reliable?

Moreover, Kshatriya varn historically not only is associated with Soldiers but also with governors, administrators, generals and kings. Khatris apart from trade have also taken part in the above mentioned professions. This implies that Khatris were not restricted to only trading but also other proffesions. Which means that under the Brahmins they were able to participate in these professions. That means Khatris were opportunistic Traders not historical traders

No, sources from the British Raj era are not reliable. - Sitush (talk) 13:40, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

close paraphrasing issues

As I am verifying edits made by editors, I am finding possible WP:PARAPHRASE violations by some editors who previously edited this page -before Sitush started fixing it. For example, there are no quotes on the page for Dale[who?] locates Khatris in Astrakhan, Russia during the late seventeenth century and, in the 1830s, the British imperial proconsul and past governor of Bombay, Mountstuart Elphinstone, was informed that Khatris were still highly involved in northwest India's transregional commerce and that they maintained communities throughout Afghanistan and as far away as Astrakhan.. The source text on page 107 reads Dale locates Khatris in Astrakhan during the late seventeenth century and, in the 1830s, the British imperial proconsul and past governor of Bombay, Mountstuart Elphinstone, was informed that Khatris were still highly involved in northwest India’s transregional commerce and that they maintained communities throughout Afghanistan and as far away as Astrakhan. It is literally copied and pasted. I don't mean to point to anyone in particular and did not check the history of this but please be careful as we have to paraphrase it. I suspect this might be true with other edits on this page too.LukeEmily (talk) 01:26, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen some, too. It is unfortunately all too common with India articles and I think we are a bit too easy on those that do it. - Sitush (talk) 02:02, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Partition (It should be mentioned in detail as well as in introduction)

It is a notable and well-known fact that most Khatris (above 95%) moved to modern day India after 1947 from modern day Pakistan (all the provinces). Mentioning that they are originally from North India is like saying African-Americans of USA are originally from USA. Khatris have proven to be from Potohar Plateau, which even the census proves it.

The biggest exodus of Khatris (also the biggest exodus of Humans of all time) happened in 1947 which is VERY briefly mentioned. 1947 is the biggest turning point in the lives of Khatris and the biggest event from their history and it is not even mentioned in the introduction section.

See WP:V. Unless you provide reliable sources, you are wasting your time making statements such as this. - Sitush (talk) 13:36, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Sitush. What reliable source do you have that proves Khatris are originally from modern North India. What reliable sources do ou have to prove that Silk Weaving Khatris are related to Khatris.

Just like Khatris of Nepal have their own article. There needs to be a separate article for the Silk Weaving Khatris who have absolutely no connection with the Punjabi ones. Period.

Punjabi Khatris and the silk weaving ones are different Proof  : " By reason of their connection with the silk industry, the Khatri are also called Putnulkaran but they identify themselves as Bhuja Raja Kshatriya and claim their descent from Karta Virya Arjuna" Here silk weaving khatris have a completely different origin. Punjabi Khatris on the other claim they descended from Luv and Kush Source : India's Communities by K.S Singh A-G (Page 1722)

My suspicion is they are different & I didn't add all of the weaving stuff etc, merely reinstated it because it is sourced & you did not explain why you removed it. But note that mine is indeed just a suspicion at the moment and we cannot base our articles on our personal knowledge, gut feeling or whatever. Your thing from Singh might be useful but I do know that series of books frequently does explicitly state when two similarly-named groups are actually different, and I am not sure that differing myths of origin is sufficient for us to draw our own conclusion, precisely because we are not supposed to do that.

The solution maybe to reorganise this article rather than have a multitude of articles, eg "The Khatris of Punjab believe X, whilst those of Maharashtra believe Y ..." and so on. - Sitush (talk) 14:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Sitush and  LukeEmily,

(please give your 5 minutes to read this)

Yes, you are absolutely correct about both the Khatris being different linguistically, culturally and genetically but they are clubbed together in this article. I am Khatri with origins in Western Punjab but I was born and raised in Surat, Gujarat which is the biggest center for Gujarati Khatris.

The Gujarati Khatri call themselves "BrahmKshatriyas" in Surat. I have never heard any of them saying they have origin in Punjab which is why I was shocked reading this article. I think these the etymology of Gujarati Khatris is like this :- Brahmkshatriya > Kshatriya > Khatri (Prakrit)

I think until we cannot establish with certainty that both the communities are one and the same, we cannot club them together. Think about it logically, there needs to be a disambiguation between Punjabi Khatris with their silk-weaving counterparts who share the name.

This is coming from a Khatri itself who is not satisfied with an article about their community.

this article is a complete mess of random authors saying random stuff about "Khatris".

I hope you consider breaking the Khatri into a disambiguation because caste as per wikipedia is "Caste is a form of social stratification characterised by endogamy, hereditary transmission of a style of life which often includes an occupation, ritual status in a hierarchy, and customary social interaction and exclusion based on cultural notions of purity and pollution"

Punjabi Khatris and their silk-weaving counterparts who share the name :

A. Dont form an endogamous society and dont form matrimonial relation. B. They are employed in completely different professions presently. Punjabi Khatri claim to be Kshatriyas while others claim to be Brahmkshatriya C. They dont consider themselves to be the same tribe/clan/community/caste D. Dont share the same rituals

Unlike, Rajputs who basically consider all of them to be the same kin and it historically noted how different clans merged into Rajput biradari. In case of Khatris, it is never noted how these silk-weaving castes started bearing that name, in fact many authors claim they have adapted a different name. For rajputs we can confirm the Dogra version is same as that of the Gujrati one because we HAVE history about that. Same cant be said about Khatris.

I hope you consider this and do the needful

(PS : I do not mean to promote casteism or the royal warrior nature of Khatris , in fact i dont believe in caste system bs , i just want u to separate the Punjabi Khatris because we cannot say it with certainty that they are same as others)

Thankyou

Hi @Lamperdamper:, genetics is not relevant as Sitush mentioned. Even Rajputs are unrelated genetically and have been formed by amalgamation of different groups. On this page, we have qualified (except in the lead), all occupations and incidences with the location. For example, Gujarat/Hyderabad/Banaras etc. is mentioned when weaving is mentioned. Cloth sale, money lending, scribes are mentioned when Punjabi khatris are mentioned. Same is the case with Nair, Kayastha, Tamil Brahmin etc. and many other groups - any group is going to be different by rituals and social status based on location. If you want to divide this page into sections based on regions , I think it should be fine. But sometimes, the sources are ambiguous. For example "north Indian Khatri", does that mean Khatris from Punjab or UP? We have to be careful and specifically mention the location as they may have different status and rituals everywhere. For Gujrathi Khatris, here is a quote from Puri's book about their Punjabi origin (page 35). Chapter 2: The distribution and classification of Khatris in India. Described as Handsome, fair skin with blue or grey eyes, large and vigorous, they dress like High class Gujrati Hindus. They speak Gujrati with a few Hindustani words. Traditional accounts suggest that the emigrated from Punjab and settled in Chapaner in Panch Mahal. On the capture of that place by Muhmud Beg(AD 1484) they moved to Ahmedabad and occupied quarter of the city at present known by the name of Khadiya. Some went as far as hyderabad... He is using a Raj era report hence it is debatable if it is reliable. But the current academic sources on the page(Dale) do say that they could have come from Sindh, Pakistan. I do know know if the Punjabi and Gujrathi khatris look different but it is irrelevant anyways. Are you suggesting that we divide each section into subsections like Banaras, Gujrat etc. and discuss each history/occupation there? I think that is a good idea. I can try dividing one section without adding or deleting any sources(will only rearrange).LukeEmily (talk) 14:31, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

talk Yes, thats what i want!

I think dividing it into sections with the introduction section mention their link and their differences would be good.

Ps : Some of Puri's work is cringy especially about Khatris. Describing an entire community as handsome and blue eyed sounds pseudo-scientific and beauty anyway could be subjective. Also, please mention about the Partition of India ( all academic books mention it) in the intro section. It is a very significant part of the Punjabi Khatris.

"north-India"

I'm aware that the subject of this article is sensitive, so instead of making this minor edit, I'm proposing a change here.

Khatri is a caste, originally from north-India

Solely from a idiomatic perspective, oughtn't this read "...originally from north India" or "northern India"? Matuko (talk) 01:33, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes. The hyphen is unnecessary. - Sitush (talk) 14:41, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

early history

All the three sources mentioned here do not mention "silk weaver" anywhere. Following are the quoted sources.

Source 1: Scott Levi (15 January 2016). Caravans: Punjabi Khatri Merchants on the Silk Road. Penguin Books Limited. pp. 38–

Here, there is no mention of any occupation on page 38.

Source 2: David N. Lorenzen (1 January 1995). Bhakti Religion in North India: Community Identity and Political Action. SUNY Press. p. 86. Here, the occupations are said "merchantry, trade, business, shopkeeping"

Source 3: Dhooleka Sarhadi Raj, Where Are You From? Middle-Class Migrants in the Modern World, 2003, p. 222 Here, the source says "trade is their chief occupation, they are chief civil administrators"

Therefore, the word has been removed. There is no "caste-bias" here. If you have any issues, consult the relevant sources. Refrain from editing before checking the proper sources and would certainly request you to not accuse people of "vandalism" with such facetious comments. Shurpanakha (talk)

Abh9850 (talk) 13:28, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Waked Bold Ambushed:, Regarding your recent edit this edit, I believe this was deleted by @Sitush:. It has many Raj era sources and others do not have page numbers. Thanks LukeEmily (talk) 20:31, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

My mistake Sir. I will delete it. My interest is archeology and these two tribes are related in ancient times. Their medieval profession also almost overlap in North, East and South India. But I will delete if not allowed. Waked Bold Ambushed (talk) 15:11, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

LukeEmily Sitush , There's a reference of Khatris and Khojas (Muslim version of Khatris) in the popular Punjabi tale "Heer Ranjha" by Waris Shah " Her beauty slays rich Khojas and Khatris in the bazaar, like a murderous Kizilbash trooper riding out of the royal camp armed with a sword." source : http://crossasia-repository.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/246/1/hir.pdf I found it interesting, Can you add it in the article?

hi @Ohnoitsjamie: : Many khatris identify as Brahmakshatriya including my grandmother. Suri is a prominent Khatri surname not used by any other caste. Plus, Gujranwala is home to many Khatris. I Dont think there is any way to determine Vijayanand Suri's caste. Can we not just assume he is a Khatri for the above reasons? Or is self-identification neccesary, because its like saying a Sharma guy is not Brahmin.

We can't assume anything, per our verifiability and reliable sources policy. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 13:57, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Introduction Page

Why doesn't my edit belong in the lead? Can you provide some reasons? A introduction of what "Khatri" is that contains the origins of the word, a brief overview of history, religion and then geographic locations? What is the reason that the lead should only have 4-5 arbitrary lines? This doesn't seem to be the standard norm on other pages of Indian caste as well, so I don't see why it should be applied here.

If no suitable reasons or justifications are provided, then I don't see any harm in my reverting the edit. Chariotrider555

Abh9850 (talk) 12:03, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Which edit? Which other articles? - Sitush (talk) 12:36, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

User:Abh9850, the lead sentences don't need such an elaborated (and disputed) etymology. Other major castes pages do not have such elaboration on the etymology in the lead. Also the mention of the Khatris by the Greeks is currently only attested by one source, which is being questioned. Chariotrider555 (talk) 22:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The lead should not need so many citations & quotes from them, either. I realise some of the purported traditional occupations are being contested here (and have no view as yet regarding who is correct) but they do seem to be excessive and mostly better placed in the body. - Sitush (talk) 12:05, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Sitush, I will move them to the body and just keep a few citations in the lead. There was almost nothing in the entire article about the weaving occupation earlier (a few days back). Thanks. LukeEmily (talk) 14:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I went through many HQ sources (few are not on this page yet but will add them shortly). Traditional occupations(as per quotes where the words "caste of X occupation" or "tradition of X occupation" are used) were weavers, scribes and merchants(traders). Other professions mentioned were only performed by some notables. In north India the scribal tradition was shared with Brahmins and Kayasthas as it required high literacy in Persian. In Gujrat, the weaving occupation was a monopoly until another community (Kunbis) were given the license to practice weaving and the Khatris protested. As merchants they competed with the Aroras and other merchants. Rowe has also mentioned a conflict with the Aroras, where the Aroras considered Khatris their "enemy". Please correct me if I am mistaken in my understanding.LukeEmily (talk) 14:57, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

LukeEmily Sitush , Hi LukeEmily and Sitush. I think the Introduction page needs to change a little. "originally from North-India" North India is an ambiguous term which can mean different regions to different people, can you mention India or Indian subcontinent instead and then mention that they are also found in pakistan and afghanistan.

Also please include partition of India in the introduction section, because 95% of Punjabi Khatris are from modern day Pakistan where we lost our lands and money, and you have not even put any information about the partition. I dont even need to put the citation about the Partition of India, all books about Punjabi Khatris mention about it

Also, mention in the introduction that there are significant differences between the culture, language, professions and societies of Gujarati khatris, marathi khatri and punjabi khatris etc

Honestly, this article is very confusing and at many places where Khatris of Non-Punjab region is made without mention that they are non-Punjabi. It is common in India, whenever somebody says the word "Khatri" it is generally associated with the Punjabis, hence confusing them all. Can you please edit in a manner such that every time "Khatri" is mentioned, the region they belong to is mentioned.

I hope you make the needful changes (Ps: sorry for talking a little rudely to you the other day) Thanks.

I agree that the article is confusing - that's an inherent problem with the caste system. It certainly needs some organisation and a sense of "flow", though - it reads like a list of "he said ... she said" bullet points at the moment. But this is often the way things pan out when a content dispute arises and it can be fixed. I note there is a suggestion regarding the way forward in another section below. - Sitush (talk) 14:47, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Sitush LukeEmily, Can you please make the following changes in this article?

1. Include in the introduction that they are also found in Pakistan and Afghanistan presently (Source : Afghan Hindus and Sikhs by Inderjeet Singh)

2. There's a reference to Khatris in the famous Punjabi tale Heer Ranjha. I have given the link above. Include it in one of the sections

3. "Historically, they were employed in so and so profession" in the introduction should be changed to "According to so and so author, they were employed in so and so professions during so and so years" This will remove the Bias and in this way the Author will also be credited

4. Mention that Khatris claim to be Kshatriyas in the introduction. (source: all books about Khatri say they claim to be Kshatriyas)

5. Brief mention about partition of India in the introduction, because most Punjabi Khatris trace their roots from West Punjab (it is mentioned in all books about Khatris)

6. Remove "they are originally from North India", N-India is an ambiguous term which can mean different things for different people, mention that they are a caste originally from north-western Indian subcontinent, particularly from the Western Punjab province of Pakistan (Gujrati and UP Khatris also claim to be from there originally)

(I am newbie to Wiki editing , I will be thankful if you make the above changes ) (previous comment by Lamperdamper)

Hi @Lamperdamper:, as long as you followWP:V, WP:HISTRS, WP:CONS you should be able to make any changes yourself. I do not have access to some of the sources you have mentioned. For now, I have divided each section by region. I hope that is OK. Now there is no "weaving" under Punjabi Khatri sections. About mentioning Kshatriya in the lead, there is some consensus to not mention varna in the lead by on wikipedia. Except for Brahmins. You can check other pages too. I do not know the reason for this decision but some senior editors might know. Also, please don't feel discouraged just because you are new. Please edit and contribute so you can learn more.LukeEmily (talk) 23:33, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi @LukeEmily: I have made the following changes 1. Edited the Introduction Section 2. Added a new section (literature) with information and citation 3. Split the British raj section into sub-categories of all regions (punjab,gujrat etc) 4. Removed the trans-regional trade part from the British raj section and made it into a new section altogether

Let me know if there's an issue with it. Thanks for cooperation

@LukeEmily:  @Sitush:

Hi @Lamperdamper:, I think the Punjabi Khatri caste has been sanitized. Specifically, 1)you had removed a lot of sourced content related to Punjabi Khatris related to their traditional scribal(by blanking and removing some sources like O'Hanlon ) and merchant occupations like cloth selling(by moving to other sections like trade) in the medieval era. Some (if not all) of the trans-atlantic cloth trade applies to the the Punjabi Khatris only. Also, north-Indian status applies to Punjabis also but the ritual status starts with "There was justification for Kshatriya status" for Punjab. The post Independence section had been fixed by @Sitush:. He clarified that Verma was misread. Please see the quote carefully. ThanksLukeEmily (talk) 00:22, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi @LukeEmily:, I did not remove any information at all. All the statement related to silk weaving and scribing are still there. Even the part that said "even shudras wont eat anything from Khatri's hands" wasnt removed. I made a section for Jain Khatris too, check it out. Let me know if you think any changes I made was wrong

Also, thanks for your help.

Hi @Lamperdamper:, you removed the sources and text that was added back here by me in here. Thanks, LukeEmily (talk) 05:02, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Khatri is described as a caste of weavers in most sources

Most sources, if not all, describe Khatri as a caste of weavers.LukeEmily (talk) 06:46, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Learn how not to read selectively please Wikieditor1008 (talk) 08:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

This is OR on your part. Wikieditor1008 (talk) 08:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Please read what WP:OR means - weaver is well sourced. This article is a mess due to WP:PUFFERY. You cannot selectively remove content.LukeEmily (talk) 08:37, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't see this before I started the section below, sorry. Good that I am not alone among the editors with experience! - Sitush (talk) 16:46, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Sitush, most sources treat silk weavers almost synonymously with Khatris. in this edit, Wikieditor1008 removed the part about weaving and dyeing which was the traditional occupation of this caste. That is why you found excessive citations for a "work" statement [here]. Khatri is to silk weaving as Maratha is to peasantry since both were traditional occupations of these castes for centuries. And some of them became notables. There are sources that literally call it a "caste of silk weavers" etc. Yet, there is hardly any mention of weaving on the page. It was removed from lede to show a community of rulers and warriors. Please see the quotes from various sources below with quotes in italics.

1.OUP: The traditional and present - day occupation of the Khatri is silk and cotton weaving , colouring , dyeing of threads and making jari and garlands . Some of them are engaged in other occupations like business and government jobs

2.U of CA: Khatri (weaver)

3. khatri(cotton weaver)

4. Cambridge Univ Press : main Hindu weaving castes, Khatri(silk) and Salis

5.silk weaving[was] carried on to a large extent.' the products 'much valued for the fastness of the dye', with Khatri dyers

6.The Koombees appear to have taken advantage as early as 1759, when they appealed to the ruling authorities seeking permission to work on the manufacture of silk cloth which traditionally remained the Khatris prerogative.

7.The silk trade between bengal and Gujarat was a domain of Khatri merchants

8.Block printing cloth, the traditional occupation of Khatri men

9.Block printing is done with a resist substance by both Muslims and Hindus of the Khatri caste

10.

11.

12.With the Muslim invasion the heriditary art fell on bad times,as the khatri community of weavers scattered far and wide in search of work

13.KHATRI A caste of professional dyers .. There are more academic sources... Thanks, LukeEmily (talk) 18:58, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Sitush (talk) 19:22, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Sitush, Hi, how can you establish that Punjabi Khatris are the same as all these other khatris. I think we need a different article for the silk weaving khatris. This article has been strategically written to mix up these silk weavers with punjabi khatris. There are no concrete proofs connecting Punjabi Khatris with silk weaving khatris of gujarat, MP, Rajasthan, AP, etc

In fact in the book India's Communities by K.S Singh on page 1722, they (silk weaving Khatris) identify as Bhuja Raja Kshatriya. This is probably the etymology of Gujju and other Khatris. Silk Weaving Khatris claim descent from Karta Virya Arjuna. Punjabi Khatris claim descent from sons of King Rama (Luv and Kush) Their Gotras and Surnames are completely different. All information related to silk-weavers should be removed

I think till you dont give 100% proof of Gujrati, telegu etc khatris descending exactly from punjabi khatris, you cannot include them in this article. Proof can be of Genetic, Linguistic or cultural, not some random census book ssying khatris are silk weavers.

You appear to be speculating. I haven't seen all of the sources but unless you have reliable sources which say they are a different community, they should all appear here. I have already pointed you to WP:VNT and said that we don't use genetics in caste articles (see sections below). - Sitush (talk) 14:07, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Sitush and Lamperdamper, Puri's book which seems to be written with the intent of glorifying and he calls them aryan, handsome, related to Iranians, etc.(yes, that is one of the reasons he gives for them being Kshatriya). Secondly, he calls Bhattacharya (historian) a "pseudo-Pandit" and hateful. Thirdly uses Raj era census reports a lot. It is no wonder that many scholars do not quote Puri's book, and even those that do might reference him only in very trivial non-controversial context. We need to see how that book is referenced given the Publisher is virtually unknown. Even then, Puri discusses Khatris from several parts of India - not just Punjab- in chapter 2, and does mention "weaving" for some of them. Khatri caste is not just from Punjab nor do they have to be genetically connected- origin might be Punjab in some cases. For example, Rajputs , Baniyas, Kayasthas or Brahmins across India are not necessarily genetically connected with their counterparts in each state. In fact, many have different social and ritual status depending on the group. Also, according to a very source added on this page earlier (The Rise of Muslim Power in Gujarat: A History of Gujarat from 1298 to 1442-S.C.Misra) there is a quote about Punjabi Khatri origins - exact quote(page 137) Khatris were an agrarian people belonging mainly to south Punjab; claiming descent from Kshatriyas of old. It is for this reason that Sikander gives a long genealogy that would link the Sultans of Gujarat with Ramachandra, in other words, with the Suryavanshis. Like most genealogies fabricated to glorify royalty, it is obviously a fake. BTW, I will check Scott Levi's two books. Will see if I can find anything useful.LukeEmily (talk) 18:58, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Lamperdamper, please do a search for weaving on the page. The location(where they were weavers) has been explicitly mentioned so there is no misrepresentation. So there should be no confusion. For Punjabi Khatris specifically, the traditional occupations were scribes, traders and merchants and these are well cited by modern academic references. In fact, the Khatris in the south could not have been scribes as their literacy was low. To be a scribe, one would have to learn a second language, Persian - which means the community would have to be educated. Second, FYI, Puri gives one of the reasons for considering them Kshatriya - association with Saraswat Brahmins. But then you should read Rowe's paper on caste mobility and more importantly Jürgen Schaflechner's Oxford University Press book (pages 59,60). He talks about a symbiotic relation with the Khatris for the Sanskritization of both groups. (Khatri's brahmins were considered "low-caste Brahmins" based on their legend of origin - created from Mlecchas by Rama as mentioned in the book. Raising Khatri to Kshatriya would automatically benefit them.). If any occupation mention does not specify the subgroup, please let me know so I can dig into more sources.LukeEmily (talk) 18:58, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for this. It seems to confirm a similar situation to that we have found across many Wikipedia caste articles. The Puri thing is very awkward but does seem fringe-y. (On mobile, can't see indents - please fix if I have guessed them wrongly.) - Sitush (talk) 19:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Incidentally, just reverted this edit sourced to Puri as questionable: He states that historically the Khatris were superior to the Aroras, but in modern times they are nearly the same. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 19:51, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

McLeod also says similar stuff here. I don't know why and who is superior or how they decided that - but many sources mention both these castes as distinct mercantile castes. LukeEmily (talk) 22:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Actually the problem with works from Western scholars is that they are often disconnected to ground realities and often base their arguments on the basis of Raj era works. For example Jürgen Schaflechner's Oxford University Press book calls the Brahmins of Khatris as low caste when in fact Saraswat Brahmins are considered the highest among Brahmins of entire Northern India. Any person with idea regarding the regional groups of Brahmins would confirm this. Secondly the work attributes the so called social mobility of Khatris to Raj era when in fact the Khatris were already considered Kshatriyas by the time of Mughal rule. Jean Baptiste Tavernier explicitly mentions Khatris (Ketris) as second class of Hindus who have taken to trade. This was far before Britishers decided to bother themselves with the social issues of the subcontinent.

Thirdly, the work quotes a book that was itself a sanskritization attempt by Rajputs to establish themselves as Kshatriyas to argue against the Khatris.

Sayanha7 (talk) 21:48, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

That is not true Sayanha7. Jürgen Schaflechner is definitely WP:RS - he himself says on pg 49 that British era based sources are the "worst". And we have to stick to sources not personal opinions. Puri is quite unreliable - he is a race theorist and has been criticized in a Cambridge University press publication. Schaflechner is quoting Rowe but goes into more details. Jean Baptiste Tavernier was a trader of French origin and its unlikely he even understood what caste system was. I did not have much knowledge about Khatris but have referred to a number of sources. They all seem to suggest "Merchant" class for most Khatris across India and weavers for the ones in the south and scribes/trade for the ones in Punjab. That makes sense and explains why Punjabi khatris has higher literacy than others and were able to prosper better than other Khatris after independence. We have to stick to the sources. Even Todar Mal's caste is disputed and I am not sure we can include a disputed person on this page.LukeEmily (talk) 22:39, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Well Todarmal in his own work Todarananda has identified himself as a Tandana (Tandon) which is a clan of khatris alone. This is the problem with Western scholars, their understanding of ground realities and traditions are so very limited.

The fact is the Khatris of Punjab and those of South are two different stocks altogether with nothing in common but a name which is purely coincidental. This is like equating Bengali Brahmins to Boston Brahmins. Nonetheless I am not even going there since I know how Wikipedia works and as long as there is an academic source stating this, none of my arguing would work.

Coming back to Jürgen Schaflechner's, his lack of knowledge regarding the subject is all over the paper.

One just needs to read medieval works in Punjabi or Urdu or Persian to dismantle his arguments. The Kshatriya status of Khatris was well established before Britishers ever even on the scene.

As a matter of fact khatris actually had to become more caste conscious because of British desire to rearrange the caste system and their misunderstanding of equating it with the class system of Europe. Latter was a occupation based system while the former a ritual based. This was the primary reason for them asking stupid questions like 'how could Khatris be Kshatriya when they are in trade' Sayanha7 (talk) 22:50, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

As far as Puri is concerned, an editor could personally disagree with his views. But as long as the work is not violating the norms of Wikipedia, his view has to be represented. Perhaps more so than Mr. Unknown Dashrath Sharma. Sayanha7 (talk) 22:56, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Yet I am not advocating remove the opinions of either Jurgen or Puri, I feel both their works are within the wiki norms and should be here. Let every kind of view be represented and the editor's personal opinions regarding the credentials or motives of the authors kept at Bay. I was just mentioning a general problem which I've noticed with most Western commentators on caste related subjects, yet they could not be blamed entirely given the complexities involved.

As far Tavernier is concerned, I feel his views should be represented. He did write several paragraphs about the caste system, obviously based on the information that he must've received from the locals and mentions about Khatris as Ketris there. Though I'll leave the decision upon the general consensus here. Sayanha7 (talk) 23:27, 27 August 2021 (UTC)