Talk:Kenjutsu

More Cleanup I'd Like to Try

to Quote:

Kenjutsu is the core means by which koryū train their students to employ the Japanese swords against a variety of classical weapons, while indoctrinating the student in the combative mindset of the school. Therefore, kenjutsu can be seen as an integral aspect of all classical Japanese sword school curricula.

This appears to be original research, and be written from a non-neutral point of view, e.g. "kenjutsu can be seen as an integral aspect of all classical Japanese sword school curricula."

to Quote:

Today most koryū schools continue to employ kenjutsu as part of their curriculum.

Given the number of koryū focused on unarmed combat a citation would be good here. I'll see if I can find one... if not...

I also think this is not NPOV and looks a bit original to me:

"Many other schools can legitimately trace their history from the founder dating back to the 14th century, such as Maniwa Nen-ryū (founded: 1368) or Tatsumi-ryū (founded: Eishō era 1504-1521) or Kashima Shin-ryū (founded: ca. 1450).

I don't doubt that they do trace their founding back to these dates but it would be much nicer to have a citation to a good source, and loose the 'legitimately' as this sounds like non-NPOV.StringTokeniser (talk) 20:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Kenjutsu as a General Term

There appears to be some serious differences of usage in the term Kenjutsu -for example some Kenjutsu schools include Iai techniques, and the term seems to be fairly generally used for Japanese killing arts using the sword. For example in 'Looking at a Far Mountain' ISBN 0-8048-3245-5 the translation given is 'Killing Art, with sword', Ozawa describes it as 'the art of the sword'. There is some interesting discussion here:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3490&page=1

The other major usage seems to be to distinguish the old Kenjutsu koryū from modern 'Do' styles (Kendo & Iaido). I think that describing both usages in the article would be good - possibly a 'modern Kenjutsu' section to discuss modern martial arts which self describe as Kenjutsu, as well as links to the Kenjutsu Koryu . A section on the origins of Kendo Kata in the specific Kenjutsu Koryu might be interesting? StringTokeniser (talk) 22:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

New Section?

I think this article would be improved by a history section giving an overview of when the different schools of Kenjutsu developed historically? Any have an opinion on this? I think the article as it stands is to technical - since Kenjutsu is a term used to grouping various diverse schools, more emphasis on the development of the schools and less on the technical nature of Kenjutsu and the differences with Iaido/Iaijutsu may help this? And more references :-) StringTokeniser (talk) 21:28, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Rewritten

I rewrote the article, because I found it to contain misunderstandings. Habj 22:58 Mar 26, 2003 (UTC)

According to a respected Japanese acquaintance with whom I discussed the matter recently, the art known as kenjutsu has not existed since its formal abolition in the late nineteenth century, and anyone who claims to practice it today is no more practicing kenjutsu than a modern Wiccan is following the ancient pagan religion -- that is to say, what they are doing should not be mistaken for an ancient tradition, because in practice it is no more than a reconstruction based on surviving descriptions. Note that this is entirely separate from any consideration of whether the practice is "good" or "bad"; I do not intend to insult Wiccans or kenjutsuka, merely to say that, as I understand it, the schools they follow are often mistaken for things they are not. If the foregoing is true, it should be incorporated into the article; if it isn't, this comment should probably be removed. I leave it to those who have more knowledge than my mere hearsay to judge.

Your acquintance seems confused. Kenjutsu is a Japanese word for "sword technique", with emphasis on using the Japanese sword in distinctively Japanese manner. It is not something that can be "formally abolished". Maybe you mean the abolishment of samurai as a sosial class in 1877? The kenjutsu styles extant today (there are several dozens) did not "reconstruct" anything (well, some might have done little bit of that also) but are based on unbroken instructor lineages. Beware, charlatans abound in kenjutsu also, see McDojo. Given that maybe less than one percent of Japanese people alive today even know that they country's premodern combatative traditions have ever existed (much less know anything about their characteristics), I wouldn't change this article based on your vague comment. After all, there are reliable English language sources readily available. jni 12:35, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

I think jni has a point here, kenjutsu is merely an arbitary label for something people do. There are many styles that were lost during the Meiji Restoration and the few that have survived to this day have undoubtedly changed. Although there are many people who may claim to teach "traditional" martial arts, the art that they teach will not be the same as it was 100 years ago, things change, there is no doubt about it. A large clue to this change is in the name itself: Ken-jutsu as I understand it roughly translates as "technique of the sword", over time this was refined by its practitioners into Ken-do "way of the sword". The "do" suffix seems to indicate this new art being more than just a set of instructions on how to use a sword in combat, it became a way of life. Instead of learning the techniques like you would subjects at school, the practitioner devoted his whole life to trying to understand the greater meaning of the art taking it to almost a spiritual level. As we can see, there is not a lot left in this spiritual aspect in modern Kendo.

As for the point of merging kenjutsu with Japanese swordsmanship, I think they should stay separate as the article on kenjutsu should discribe the art and techniques where as Japanese swordsmanship should describe the behaviour of the swordsmen themselves.

I heavily disagree. Kenjutsu being refined into Kendo is a totally different subject, one that concerns Kendo itself and the evolution of it from a killing art into a sporting art. I'm sure that Kenjutsu as a killing art is still taught in some places, albeit probably hard to find. Kendo was created within schools to allow competitions and sporting, as perhaps iaijutsu might have gained the name iaido when the killing intent of the drawing sword was lost.

Also...as a kenshi who practices Kendo, I would say that the spiritual aspect is definitely still within the sport. That's an entirely different subject, however.

As for your point about kenjutsu and behavior of swordsmen...there are two different articles. Ever heard of Bushido? Kishyotai 11:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Kendo AND Iaido or Kendo OR Iaido

Hello, 203.51.231.180! I noticed your edit on the above topic, but I didn't quite agree with it, so I edited it back (and tried to improve the original sentence).

It seems to me that the way you left the sentence, it was a little hard to understand. Would you like to discuss that? Claus Aranha 05:07, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Kenjutsu abolished?

Hi, I'm sorry to butt in like this, but I'm not entirely sure what the acquaintance there said is true. Some time ago I read an entire list of Kenjutsu-ryu that still exist today in Japan, such as Hokushin Ito-ryu, Tennen Rishin-ryu or Niten Ichi-ryu. There is however something of a debat brewing for over a longtime about how genuine you can consider kenjutsu today. But as far as I hear from my sensei (I practice kendo, which is an entire different story), you begin with wooden swords and you evolve to blunt swords and eventually sharp swords. This in itself seems genuine enough, unless you want to risk your lives with sharp swords from the beginning :-) Soliber 30/12/2005

Merge

May I inquire the concensus for the merge template being placed on this article..? The article is exceptionally refernced and elaborated, and like Iaido, it a distinct and seperate art concerning the usage of the sword. If there are no objections, I request the template be removed. -Zero^Talk 18:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

See the current discussion on Talk:Japanese swordsmanship. I'm personally in agreement with you. --Kyle Davis 19:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Just a little note

The current traditional styles of kenjutsu have not changed significantly in recent history. Many of the schools listed in the origional article (Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, Kashima Shinto-ryu, Kashima Shin-ryu, Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, ect.) have gone mostly unchanged over the years. Minor cosmetic changes may have taken place from time to time: The rearranging of the kata, the removal of obsolete techniques, ect. However, aside from this, the schools of kenjutsu have changed very little. The ceremonies they do as they go through their practices, the inner belief system of these schools, and many other aspects are still in tact from when they were founded. Things do undoubtedly change over time, like a previous poster said; however, these schools have a desire to keep to how they were. They have a deep feeling for tradition, and as such are slow to change.

I'd also like to address the comment about kenjutsu evolving into kendo. This is a false statement. Kendo was created to fit school curriculum by the Ministry of Education in Japan in the early 20th century in order to change a very European method of exercise practiced in schools to a Japanese one. It took elements found from books written by Miyamoto Musashi, along with the current exercise method of a full body workout, and combined them to form kendo. It is a sport restricted to the striking of 4 spots and an exercise method. While it excels at what it does, it is not the evolution of kenjutsu. Meanwhile, traditional kenjutsu koryu excel at what they've always done, train its students in the Japanese art of war, battlefield stratagems and stratagies, the use of a sword as well as other weapons. They do not give a full body workout, and instead focus on only the techniques themselves and the muscels they use. There is a significant distinction between kendo and kenjutsu, and while both have their merrits, they are not the same thing, nor is one an evolution of another. April, 2006

Rewritten

I have rewritten the kenjutsu wiki due to the errors in the text and to reconcile the contradictions inherent in the text. I have based my entry not only on my readings on the seminal works in English - The Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan 3-volume set by Diane Skoss (Koryu Books) but also in conjunction with my own training in Koryu.

Style commentary

This article contains a lot of technical information and little explanation; it seems very like a subsection of a larger article. I've added a cleanup tag to indicate that the text does not currently read like a full article in itself although it is infomative enough. Chris Cunningham 09:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

the problem with Kenjutsu

Hi

The problem with Kenjutsu is that it is a diverse set of practices, and it hard to elaborate detailed information without becoming contradictory or inconsistent. Because each ryu has a different approach maybe we can use some footage from http://www.youtube.com/index to illustrate certain concepts. Can http://www.youtube.com/index movies be posted into wikipeadia?

I will ad a section on pedagogy in kenjutsu and the jo, ha, kyu structure for education.

I am happy to develop the Kenjutsu post further.

Thumbsucker

Art

Hi, I remember there was an art which I believe primarily had 3 steps in which a battle was fought with a sword. One of those steps was the art of removing the blood from the sword. Does anyone know which art I am talking about? Mallerd 13:58, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I finally found it: Iaidō Mallerd (talk) 11:20, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The picture

What do those two gaijin know about kenjutsu? 70.89.165.91 (talk) 19:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Martial arts isn't bound by race. 97.118.207.2 (talk) 21:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Recommendation with the picture

I totally agree with you (the guy who posted above me) there. I have to be honest, but the pictures don't really go with the feel, especially the blue-haired guy. Don't mean to be racist there. It just doesn't seem, well, proper? I'd rather see a Japanese do that stuff.

I recommend the usage of photos from this user in Flickr, just get his/her permission: http://flickr.com/photos/7762281@N08/

Silenthill_addict (talk) 22:30, 08 August 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree, but in my book, the picture of the blue-haired guy is better than no picture. I don't care that the guy's not Japanese, but the blue hair screams "poser." Please replace it, though if you can find something else. Bradford44 (talk) 21:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

For anybody interested, the hair was dyed blue to raise money for cancer. Much like the typical head-shave event, but gets a better turnout. 68.151.251.42 (talk) 20:29, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Please please please, change the picture now! Anyone aquainted with Kenjutsu can tell straight away these fellows are just enthusiast, not real pros - your weekend familly fella' playing samurai - it is clearly not the real deal, and the lack of a picture that really shows what the art is all about really weakens the main text and makes the art look foly. Kenjutsu is one of the finest japanese traditional martial arts, having its roots to be found millenia ago. Please put a picture that is really up to the nobility of such a great, great martial art!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.189.112.20 (talk) 13:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Kenjutsu unlike kendo is not well organized. So it's hard to say what's "correct" and "incorrect". 97.118.207.2 (talk) 21:51, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Kenjutsu in the modern Kendo

At this moment one can read: "The modern styles of kendo and iaido that were established the 20th century included kenjutsu in their curriculum too." Maybe this information is right but the modern kendo do not have documentation on this kenjutsu is from the feudal era of Japan (prior to 1868). Development of "kenjutsu" in the modern time of Japan (after the Meiji Restoration in 1868) most be modern development within "kenjutsu". Therefore the sentence above must be changed to: "The modern styles of kendo and iaido that were established the 20th century included modern form of kenjutsu in their curriculum too." - Kontoreg (talk) 12:31, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

A little weird discontinuity

Hi, it strikes me (ha) as a little odd to give the names of three classical schools, and then use a fourth one as an example of the ancestor-descendant relation. Is it possible to either use one of the three listed, or include the one used (ono ha Itto ryu) in the list?

T 2001:4610:A:5E:0:0:0:1414 (talk) 18:39, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Techniques section

I removed the entire section for two reasons. The main one being that it is direct copy of a copyrighted article (see http://www.liquisearch.com/kenjutsu/techniques_and_styles/techniques) and the reference given at the end of it does not free up the obligation. The second is that wikipedia is not a how to manual which is how this section came across.Peter Rehse (talk) 09:07, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Edo period

This section states that sparring with shinai as we know it in modern kendo began in the 19th century, whereas The History of Kendo as quoted in the kendo article, gives the beginning as around 1700. At any rate, should the kenjutsu article not refer to the kendo article anyway, to save duplication and contradiction?

14:57, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

History

Dfg 79.69.57.93 (talk) 23:42, 26 November 2022 (UTC)