Talk:James Rowe (footballer, born 1983)

COI tag

Hey, REDMAN 2019, I'd removed the COI because the editor has disclosed and said she'll stop editing directly. Is there a reason you felt it still needed a COI tag? You didn't include an edit summary with an explanation. (I notice you very seldom use edit summaries; if you go to your preferences you can turn on a reminder. Edit summaries are nearly as important as the edits themselves.) —valereee (talk) 11:03, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

While there is no doubt that the article was created by someone with a WP:COI (more on this at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#James_Rowe_(football_manager)), I don't see any glaring WP:PROMO, WP:PUFFERY etc problems as currently written. Then again, football is not a topic where I shine. So, yeah, reasons for re-adding would be good. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:19, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee and Gråbergs Gråa Sång: Apologies, I was not aware that the creator had disclosed. Will remove the tag. Cheers! REDMAN 2019 (talk) 11:32, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Tag now removed. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 11:33, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

REDMAN 2019, thanks, I figured it might just be an oversight! —valereee (talk) 11:35, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Wikipedia at it's finest. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@REDMAN 2019, Valereee, and Gråbergs Gråa Sång: Thank you, all resolved nowSusy211 (talk) 12:59, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

coi editor

Susy211, it's best if we move this discussion to this page. We like to keep discussions about articles all at the article talk. —valereee (talk) 11:03, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

And to be clear, you are welcome to make comments, suggest sources, etc on this talkpage. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:45, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: hey, suggesting an amendment to the image displayed this being replace with more recent image, the replacement is not subject to copyright restrictions, would you be able to sort or perhaps another editor? Am I able to upload the image given COI editor? Happy New Year! Susy211 (talk) 12:15, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi Susy211, Happy New Year to you too! If it's your image, just upload it to Commons [1] like you did with the other one. WP/Commons is quite happy (in general) with COI-people donating their images. Ping me again, and I'll add it to the article (unless I think it's bloody awful). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:26, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång:, Hey, suggesting an update to the article if you agree, reference Extension of contract see sources below, https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9295259/Chesterfield-set-offer-highly-rated-young-manager-James-Rowe-improved-contract.html and https://www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/sport/football/chesterfield-manager-james-rowe-signs-new-contract-after-impressive-start-at-spireites-3153500 and another, can now add the cite for St Joseph's College that is missing https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/St_Joseph%27s_College,_Ipswich Susy211 (talk) 10:30, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Susy211 We like to avoid DM as a source, see WP:DAILYMAIL, but added the other. What ref do you have for Rowe-St Joseph's College? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:46, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

I added source [2] for Rowe-St Joseph's College. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:52, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

And some COI-editors say WP is difficult... Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:55, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

[[User:Joseph2302}} @Gråbergs Gråa Sång: great:) Susy211 (talk) 15:42, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

The other template, "This article appears to contradict the article Gloucester City A.F.C.. Please see discussion on the linked talk page."

Joseph2302 Care to comment more in detail? [3]. I have a hunch, but you added the thing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:29, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I have zero hunches —valereee (talk) 11:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

And my hunch went away: [4] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:55, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, oh, looks like he just quit. —valereee (talk) 12:07, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Spot on. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:13, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, been offline. This article said he was Chesterfield manager, but the Gloucester article and template said he was manager there. Looks like it's been clarified now. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:02, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Recent IP-edits

I don't have much interest in football, so if someone wants to check if these recent edits are WP-good, feel free. I wonder because the article has been vandalized in the past. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:27, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: I've edited it. The information wasn't all terrible (negative information can be included), but was heavily biased like the vandalism in the past. I tried to write it in a more neutral light. RedPatch (talk) 13:04, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@RedPatch, thank you very much. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:23, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Also, it was suggested at some point that per naming convention this article should have the title James Rowe (footballer, born 1983). If you think that's right, feel free to move. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:37, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

That would be the proper title per WP:FOOTY, but probably best to do it through a RM since would require James Rowe (footballer) and possibly James Rowe (Australian footballer) to also be moved. RedPatch (talk) 02:22, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Well technically it wouldn't, but you're probably right. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:45, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#The_James_Rowes Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: Hi, recent edits are repeat vandalism Susy211 (talk) 23:56, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi Susy211. It seems RedPatch dealt with it. In WP-language, something like [5] is more like WP:Disruptive editing or even "just" not WP:NPOV. WP:VANDALISM is generally more blatant, though as always there is a grey area. Anyway, should this continue there's a case for asking that IP to be blocked at WP:AIV, since they've been warned before. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:45, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi again the disruptive editing continues and is persistent would you be able to proceed with asking for this IP to be blocked? And/or would there now be a case for protecting this page as it is relentless... Susy211 (talk) 20:03, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 8 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 15:43, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

---

• James Rowe (football manager) → James Rowe (footballer, born 1983)
• James Rowe (footballer) → James Rowe (footballer, born 1991)
  • Also redirect James Rowe (footballer) to James Rowe disambiguation page afterwards.

– Per discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#The James Rowes. Also the Aussie rules footballer at James Rowe (Australian footballer). Could be fine as is, due to a different sport. There was also discussion about potentially nominating the first one for deletion. Previous discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 136/James Rowe (football manager) as well RedPatch (talk) 15:35, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. RedPatch (talk) 15:35, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support these moves. ...I assume both articles have acceptable refs for birthyear. ;-) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:44, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support as per the WT:FOOTY discussion. The Australian footballer is fine where it is, as it's not ambiguous with any of these English association footballers. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:50, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I'm not sure about Rowe #3. He can be said to be a "footballer" too. He would then potentially be James Rowe (footballer, born 1999). HiLo48, do you have an opinion? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:02, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nomination. The Australian rules footballer can either be kept as it is, or be moved to James Rowe (Australian rules footballer) (which I would actually prefer). For example, in Category:Australian rules footballers from South Australia there is a mix of (Australian footballer) and (Australian rules footballer), maybe they should be standardized? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:11, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

"Australian rules footballer" is better, I think. I may be a pessimist, but I see potential objection based on ""James Rowe (footballer, born 1983)" reads like WP considers these the real footballers, that's not NPOV." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:34, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Could someone notify WP Australian Rules Football about this RM? Sure people there would have an opinion on how to disambiguate the third person. (I'm on phone, so not easy for me to do it). Joseph2302 (talk) 20:07, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I posted a comment on their Talk page. I do like Nehme's suggestion, but will defer to what the convention is per their wikiproject. RedPatch (talk) 21:02, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support per WT:FOOTY. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 18:23, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom and standard naming conventions for footballers who have become managers. GiantSnowman 18:39, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:27, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: directed here from the WikiProject Australian rules football notice. Per the naming conventions for Australian rules footballers, Rowe #3 should be disambiguated as James Rowe (Australian footballer). Disambiguating with "Australian rules footballer" is only necessary when there exist other Australian sportspeople with the same name who play another code called "football" (such as rugby). (@Nehme1499: this practice accounts for why articles' disambiguators in Category:Australian rules footballers from South Australia are not "standardised"). Disambiguating by birth date is also not preferred; readers are far more likely to recall the fact Rowe #3 plays Australian football than that the fact he was born in 1999. – Teratix ₵ 12:05, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support both have played footballer rather than only been a manager and the 1983 one gets more views (3,572) than the 1991 one (777)[[6]]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recent edits about the circumstances under which he left West Ham

Gråbergs Gråa Sång I've taken a look at the source supporting the assertion that there had been complaints of impropriety. It was tricky to read the whole thing (it's behind a paywall, and I don't have an account), but from what I was able to read by taking a screenshot before the paywall came down (sneaky, I know...) they don't report on such complaints as fact - they write about receiving an anonymous letter that told them about the complaints and said that something should be done. I don't think that we can include anything in a BLP based on that kind of source - unless you've read the source in full, and can assure me that it definitely supports the content that you reinstated, can I suggest that you leave it out for now? The account that was blocked was wrong to make a legal threat against you, but they may actually have been right about removing the content. Cheers Girth Summit _(blether) 12:35, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I looked into the same issue, and the telegraph article ends with the sentence "There is no suggestion sexual abuse or physical violence led to Rowe being disciplined.", which was certainly implied by our article. Also it has no mention of any FA ban. (use the Google cache version, and stop the page loading before the paywall notice comes up) ActivelyDisinterested (talk) 12:59, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

@Girth Summit, thanks for starting the discussion. I would have, but you beat me to it. The text in question, In 2015, Rowe left West Ham following numerous complaints of impropriety in relation to young players in the Academy. Rowe was dismissed and was subject to a ban from the FA, leaving for that period to Holland, has again been removed by another James Rowe (footballer, born 1983) WP:SPA, Immersive01, that's fine while we try to reach a consensus. Btw, I don't think the LT was against me, exactly, but they might have meant it that way.

So, interested editors, let's talk.

Apart from The Telegraph currently in the article [7], there is also an earlier one on the same issue, [8]. Somehow I managed to get the full text from both, they are from June and August 2015.

The June one states (trying to keep the quotes short and relevant):

West Ham United have disciplined [Rowe] for “poor practice” following complaints about his treatment of young players.

[Rowe] was also ordered to undertake awareness training following an internal investigation by the Premier League side, the outcome of which was backed by the Football Association.

A West Ham spokesman added: “Following an internal investigation, a member of the club’s academy coaching staff was found to have demonstrated poor practice during his work.

“At an impartial hearing, he was then disciplined in line with the club’s standard procedures.

The Telegraph also states that they asked the club about this in the first place because they (TT) had received anonymous accusations against Rowe.

The August article repeats much of the above, and adds

[Rowe] who was disciplined following complaints about his treatment of young players has left the club. ... Acknowledging his departure, a spokesman said last night that the 32 year-old had left “to further his career” and had joined 10 other coaches from around the world on a “prestigious” master in coaching course at the Johan Cruyff Institute in Amsterdam.

So, per WP:PROPORTION, how about something like

"In 2015, Rowe left West Ham after having been disciplined for "poor practice" regarding young players. Following an internal investigation caused by complaints, he was ordered to undertake awareness training." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:48, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

That seems fine to me. Girth Summit _(blether) 14:52, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

References

The article is based on and evidences an anonymous letter. I don't class this as a reliable source? So surely if it is unreliable, it should not be used at all? Immersive01 (talk) 16:08, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Can reliable source content be found from the likes of West Ham, The FA or Rowe himself? Basing this on an anonymous letter, surely is dangerous territory? Immersive01 (talk) 16:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Did you read the quotes above (or the articles under discussion)? It's not based on an anonymous letter, it's based on what TT got from the club. The suggested text takes nothing from the anymous letter, and doesn't mention it. Interested people can read about that in the sources. "In 2015, Rowe was disciplined for "poor practice" regarding young players." happened before TT gor the letter. Because of the letter, TT thought it was interesting to ask the club about and publish. Then Rowe left the club, and they published that too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:40, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Pinging DeCausa incase you didn't see this discussion before you edited.[9] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:22, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, I missed this thread before editing - should have checked! I’m happy with your edit. I have a Telegraph subscription so could read the whole article. “Impropriety” is definitely the wrong word. But the Telegraph article is a solid source for supporting a statement that he had to leave because of his “treatment of” or “‘poor practice’” in relation to young players. It needs to steer well away and make it clear ther is no sexual issue. Your edit does that. DeCausa (talk) 20:58, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Then I count you, me and Girth Summit as being ok with the current [10] wording. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:06, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes. DeCausa (talk) 21:08, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes from me too. Girth Summit _(blether) 11:59, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I also noticed other text was removed from the playing career section by an IP now. RedPatch (talk) 19:25, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@RedPatch Right, this bit was removed here [11]:

Afterwards, he joined Stamford and Grantham Town for short spells, before signing with Rugby Town in July 2005. However, he left Rugby Town after three games by mutual consent, following being fined by the club for dissent.[12]

References

Afaict, the refs support the text. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:59, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Maybe someone should add "dissent" to WP somewhere. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:07, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Why would you add dissent . What’s the source ? We are in dangerous territory if unknown sources are being used as references. 78.86.128.215 (talk) 22:19, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Stats Source

All the match stats of Rowe's tenure at Gloucester City and Chesterfield are listed on Soccerway website, including FA Trophy.

Just need to scroll back and they are listed.

Soccerway is a reliable source of information. Immersive01 (talk) 11:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

The general Soccerway source you are using is not good enough. This is why you keep on being reverted. GiantSnowman 13:06, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I think the most reliable source (see my edits and replies below) is Transfer Market . See link below.

i think for the sake of everyone’s input on these just used the most reliable - it also eradicates having to add the games as you go as the games are totalled plus detailed if necessary .

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/james-rowe/profil/trainer/86523 Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:49, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Matches played since suspension

A quick question: As Rowe is now suspended and Chesterfield have an interim manager, do matches played under Rowe count towards his statistics or not? The reason I ask is that on Dario Gradi's page six matches are omitted from his stats while he was absent for health reasons, and one game on Neil Warnock's page is also omitted as he was self-isolating. I know these are for health rather than disciplinary reasons but is there a consensus as to how these are taken into account or not, as Chesterfield's match yesterday has been added to Rowe's statistics despite him not taking charge. Samuel J Walker (talk) 23:28, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

@Samuel J Walker I have no idea. If you don't get a good reply here, you can try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:23, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Notability

Having never managed or played in the EFL, is he notable enough to have a Wikipedia article? I ask as I know players in the National League don't get articles, but I'm not sure on managers. 89.243.152.31 (talk) 11:52, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

It has been briefly discussed at for example Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Archive_136#James_Rowe_(football_manager) and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Archive_143#The_James_Rowes. My impression is that he passes WP:GNG/WP:BASIC without problems. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:06, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

The Chesterfield suspension/allegations

This source [13] (Derbyshire Live) from today seems to be saying that the Chesterfield "thing" is the same as the one he pleaded not guilty to today. Is it a good enough source, and should we edit the article to say that? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:49, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

However, this source [14] does not state it like that, so I guess it's too unclear atm. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:45, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Noting that I made this edit [15] per a new source. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:44, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Recent IP-edits 2

@ChrisTheDude, hi. That IP [16][17] is back. I don't know if [18] is correct, but this [19] is not WP-good, though it may be in good faith.

86.13.234.9, if you're watching, consider WP:BLP and WP:COMMUNICATE. If you want to make WP-edits that can stick, you have to learn how to add WP:RS references correctly, this is essential. See WP:TUTORIAL on how to do that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:39, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Education/license

"Rowe holds a UEFA A Licence, and a Masters of Research Degree in Sports Science from Nottingham Trent University."[20]

I just removed the above, the source said nothing of the sort. Does anyone have a WP-good ref for that? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:41, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

The guardian article below says he has done a masters on sports directorship and graduated in 2024. His third masters degree . So I think that highlights his quals and be used as a reference.

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2024/nov/16/james-rowe-interview-chesterfield-trial Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Rowe's children?

[21] says daughters, an IP-editor says sons. I changed it to "children" for the time being. Opinions and WP:BLP-good sources? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 November 2024

However, he left Rugby Town after three games by mutual consent, following being fined by the club for dissent.

This is not referenced at all . It’s quite concerning when going through this page the amount of in referenced statements being made about Rowe. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 13:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Not referenced at all? There is literally a reference attached to the sentence, which you even copied in your post here. I also notice that immediately following this edit request you edited Daniel Webb (footballer) to say "After Rowe left the club, Webb remained a snake at the club under new manager Paul Cook". RedPatch (talk) 14:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: per the above comment. DrOrinScrivello (talk) 21:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately this can’t be used because it is unsourced and a blog. I think Rowe played 6 games at Rugby when researching so even that is wrong

It’s known in the fan base that Danny Webb has been a snake in his role at Leyton Orient and again while at Chesterfield. I will look for a reference from his Orient Days Super Mario 1887 (talk)

It's the club's official site, not a blog though. RedPatch (talk) 17:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

It’s a blog on their official site by an unknown. What type of dissent was it. This would never be on an official site . You’re on dangerous grounds and I would suggest it’s removed. It’s basically a random dig with no substance. If there was a report on this in a media reference to quote and rely on then yes by all means it should stay. I’ve looked and there is no media report ? Unless you can source one. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:43, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2024

2020</ref>

Egghead06 needs to stop violating this page with unreliable sources and unreliable information. It seems he has a personal vendetta against Rowe. Unsure if he knows him personally but is very factious in his editing.

I noticed that this was provided a few years back too.

- the match stats of Rowe's tenure at Gloucester City and Chesterfield are listed on Soccerway website, including FA Trophy. Just need to scroll back and they are listed. Soccerway is a reliable source of information. Immersive01 (talk) 11:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Very odd how you’re now attempting to use soccer base as a source and the stats are far more unreliable. It doesn’t matter if they have concluded what wins Rowe for it isn’t a reliable site that is used for referencing manager statistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Super Mario 1887 (talk • contribs) 00:28, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Equally odd now Rowe didn’t manage at all at AFC Fylde.

Please revert edits back to original along with solid references .

Super Mario 1887 (talk) 00:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

With regards to the stats, per FIFA and by extension WikiProject Football, if a match ends in a draw and is then decided in PKs, it is officially a draw and not a win/loss. That was the original issue on the page earlier. Explained and referenced at Penalty_shoot-out_(association_football)#Overview The reversion to the soccerbase reflects that. The AFC Frylde stats should be re-added though. RedPatch (talk) 17:06, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes I can see that however soccer see isn’t a reliable source. Transfermarkt is a far superior and reliable source. These are the stats that need to be used. For example Rowe managed 23 games at Gloucester. Please adjust accordingly .

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/james-rowe/profil/trainer/86523 Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2024 (2)

This is just going around in circles . As per edit reasoning below this should be removed. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 00:48, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 13:06, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

In 2015, Rowe left West Ham after having been disciplined for "poor practice" regarding young players. Following an internal investigation caused by complaints, he was ordered to undertake awareness training.

this needs removing. Reason being reference 21 does not say anywhere there were complaints. It also doesn’t mention an internal investigation. It says there was an anonymous letter sent to the club. Secondly reference 22 says Rowe was sanctioned,  ? Sanctioned with what and what proof is there. This paragraph isn’t a reflection of what’s reported. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:35, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2024 (3)

+ Managerial record by team and tenure Super Mario 1887 (talk) 12:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC)