Talk:Henry Cowell/Archive 1

Archive 1

Latin American connections

Could someone add something about how Cowell was an important link to the contemporary composers of Latin America (Chavez, Roldan, et al.), via the Pan American Association of Composers? Badagnani 19:58, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Cowell's book on Ives

There's a more recent edition of Cowell's "Charles Ives and His Music," from Da Capo Press, but online sources disagree as to whether it's 1981 or 1983 (of course, it's possibly both). Anyone have a copy? —DCGeist 17:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Anger Dance note

While the note on this piece is sufficiently long that the idea of moving it out into an entry of its own might be entertained, Anger Dance simply has nowhere near sufficient significance in musical history to merit a specific article. On the other hand, Cowell's description of its inspiration is revealing of his psychology and the question of just how proto-minimalist the piece raises questions most interesting in the context of his biography. The information in the note, I believe, is thus most useful in its present location. —DCGeist 06:44, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Endnote & external link auto-numbering sequence conflict

As stated in the history, I went in and hand numbered the inline external links as a separate sequence from the endnote numbering sequence. (It was doing fine through callout 1 [endnote], callout 2 [endnote], callout 3 [external link], callout 4 [endnote]...oops! Pops down to the right endnote text...but numbered 3.) My clumsy temporary solution would necessitate re-hand-numbering in the event anyone adds any more external links in the future. On the other hand, I can't stand the current Wikipedia:Footnote3 guideline for articles with both endnotes and external links--that a text fragment serve as the callout for each external link. I think it's visually klutzy and can severely disrupt the flow of reading. Any opinions on that? And what do you think's the best solution? Is it possible to restore the autonumbering of the external links and change to an older endnoting method that's somehow compatible (hand numbering the endnotes, for instance, though not a perfect solution, would be more practicable than my stopgap)? —DCGeist 09:50, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

It was suggested that either degree marks or arrows be used as the callouts for all the inline external links. A truly elegant solution! By their very nature, such links cry out for neither number sequencing nor text fragments. Though the arrows occupy a bit more space than degree marks, they seems more logical and appropriate. I'm very happy with this solution--please discuss what you think of it. —DCGeist 22:33, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it looks weird but may be the best solution if there are numbering problems the other way. All in all, Wikipedia is eminently user-friendly and easy to learn, footnoting being one of the only exceptions.

Earlier tone cluster guy?

Apparently, from one of the recent Cowell biographies (maybe the "Bohemian"), there was a young American pianist in the early 20th century (maybe the teens?) who achieved some renown for his original cluster-type piano solos. Cowell supposedly saw him play and was impressed; he introduced himself and showed the guy one of his early piano pieces and the guy said Cowell had promise or something. This guy (or his music) has essentially been forgotten but may represent an important precedent to Cowell's brash and modernist style of pianism. Anybody know who this was? Badagnani 06:57, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like Leo OrnsteinKylegann 19:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Monograph removed from bibliography

I removed the following monograph (my own) - *Gann, Kyle (1993). The Overtone Series's Influence in American Music. Brooklyn, N.Y.: Brooklyn College Institute for Studies in American Music - because it never appeared. It was scheduled to, and got listed in various places, but the series closed before it could be published - and even before I finished writing it.Kylegann 19:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

References

I think the "references and further reading" section needs to be given more organization, so that it isn't a mass of books assaulting the reader. Also, it should either be more selective, or include essentially everything, a la New Grove, including journal articles. Right now, I have no idea which of these references to go to first if I wanted further reading on Cowell, although I'm guessing I could rule out the various liner notes. Also, the monographs need ISBNs. I would attempt this myself, but I don't know anything about the literature on Cowell.

I realize that some will dislike my suggestion of removing some of the references, so perhaps we could create a Henry Cowell bibliography article (or some similar title) that can take the space needed to be a complete bibliography. -Sesquialtera II 19:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

This article needs more!

I came here because I wanted to see if there was a mention/list of prominent composers who had Cowell for a teacher, and I was surprised to see nothing about his teaching career, not even a mention. While what is in the article is very good, it seems to me to be rather unfocused, with some rather large gaps in coverage. --Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 07:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

D-u-u-u-d-e!! Before critiquing the article, try reading the article. Everyone who actually does that (after noticing, of course, that Cowell is identified as a "teacher" in both the lead sentence and infobox), finds this:

During this era, Cowell also spread the ultra-modernists' experimental creed as a highly regarded teacher of composition and theory—among his many students were George Gershwin, Lou Harrison, who said he thought of Cowell as "the mentor of mentors," and John Cage, who proclaimed Cowell "the open sesame for new music in America."

and this:

[Cowell] went on to investigate Indian classical music and, in the late 1920s, began teaching courses in world music at schools in California and New York—[Lou] Harrison's tutelage under Cowell would begin when he enrolled in one such course in San Francisco.

and this:

[H]e would spend the next four years in San Quentin State Prison. There he taught fellow inmates....

and this:

Cowell resumed teaching—Burt Bacharach was one of his postwar students....

I'd love to hear about these "large gaps in coverage," but maybe first figure out who's really "unfocused."—DCGeist 09:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

As Vman737 said on my talk page, where this was rather unnecessarily reposted, I am not criticizing you or your contributions. The article is unfocused, from the lead right to the references section. It's also rather puffy. I was remiss in stating that there are no mentions of his teaching, I should have said there are no substantive mentions of his teaching. Please take unwanted criticism as a chance to improve the article (which, as I noted, has not been substantially edited in a while) rather than defending its present state.--Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 16:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

SOFIXIT. The criticism was and continues to be quite non-specific (and incorrect in the only area in which it was specific). When you ask for more details, do you mean at which institutions he taught, what were the names of the courses, etc.? If so, then say that. The names of several of the students are already given. Badagnani 16:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Frankly I don't want to, the topic doesn't particularly interest me. There is a place on wikipedia for outside comments. If anyone wants to nominate this for FA anytime in the near future, you will get pleeeenty of specific criticism. I'm sorry if you think this is unwarranted hit-and-run criticism, but there you go.--Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 16:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay here's a specific bit of criticism that comes from the project page. Check out the suggested structure there: it breaks articles down into biography, style and influence, legacy, list of notable works, etc. I suppose you could say my general complaint about this article relates to the fact that all of the info is presented essentially chronologically, in relatively uncontextualized bits and pieces, which contributes to what I (and apparently Vman737) feel is the ambling nature of the text. Also, check out WP:LEAD.--Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 16:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Late in the debate, but whatever. I like this article. Chronological organization has one big advantage: it's makes it much easier for subsequent editors to add their bitty-bits. Since this is a wiki, chronology reduces chaotic piling on of information somewhat. 217.162.229.128 05:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Columbia University

Irwin Swack apparently studied with Cowell at Columbia University. Could Cowell's tenure at CU be mentioned in the article? Badagnani (talk) 02:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Certainly, if we can source when he actually taught regularly there, as opposed to giving the occasional lecture. Unfortunately, the Hicks biography gives very little detail on this. All it makes clear, in fact, is that he gave special lectures at Columbia in 1941 and taught three courses there in 1951–52. It seems likely that he taught there at other times, but I've yet to establish when. Are you quite certain he taught Swack in the 1930s, rather than after his release from prison in the 1940s or 1950s?—DCGeist (talk) 03:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Professor tenures, especially for non-full-time professors, can be maddeningly difficult to track down. Institutional memory can be short, and often records just aren't kept. Badagnani (talk) 03:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Right. I've looked up Swack's CV, and it looks there's no way he studied with Cowell before the 1940s at the earliest. Swack received his bachelor's from the Cleveland Institute of Music in 1930. His Columbia Ph.D. was awarded in 1954. I'll move his name to the appropriate spot.—DCGeist (talk) 04:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

CIM's alumni newsletter says he got his B.M. there in 1939. Badagnani (talk) 05:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, my typo. I found a composer CV book that gives 1940. At any rate, I can't find any record of Cowell teaching there. It seems quite likely the connection was made at Columbia in the early 1950s.—DCGeist (talk) 05:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It's very gratifying to "reunite" composition students with their teachers, and vice versa, via the links on our project--something that isn't easy to find in conventional print sources. Badagnani (talk) 05:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Henry Cowell/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Henry Cowell: 2009-01-18== This is an assessment of article Henry Cowell by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Few personal details. Bisexuality (and consequences) noted; why don't we know about his personal relationships? ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. No list of compositions. ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Plenty of critical and peer mention; no public reception. How often is his music played today? ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) Imagery is good; no sound clips; decent discography. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has extensive references; uneven inline citations. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Issues with lead and footer; see summary. ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Article footer material needs organization (WP:LAYOUT) ===Summary=== This is a pretty good article about a 20th-century composer; I felt like I learned something about someone unfamiliar to me. There were a few issues with the article that could be improved, however. The first is one of popular reception. He was clearly a hit with other composers, and even some critics; I have no idea how the public received his music. (Concerts are mentioned -- what were the reactions?) The next is that, unlike quite a few other articles about important composers (including some living modern composers), there is no complete works list. There is relatively little space given to his personal life. Given the extensive set of references, this lack is somewhat surprising. While I understand he may have led a somewhat closeted life, more words ought to be said, especially before we find out about his arrest. (It is sufficient to make reliably sourced statements that these things are not known, if that appears to be the case.) I also take some issue with the lead. While it clearly makes a powerful statement, it does not (per WP:LEAD) summarize the article very well. It should be possible to write a good 4-paragraph lead that does so, while still including the Thomson quote. The last items are (to me, anyway) more nitpicky: I would place the discography further up, before Notes. If the article is to be considered for a formal review (GA or FA), it will need a full complement of inline citations. Article is B-class; decent work, but room to do more. Magic♪piano 21:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 21:49, 18 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 14:56, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

To add

A member of the "American Five." Badagnani (talk) 05:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Student to add

Alan Stout (composer). Not sure where or when Stout studied with him. Badagnani (talk) 08:00, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class, but it has a number of defects. Notable ones include a lack of a complete works list, and only very minimal mention of his personal life. My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should go here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 21:53, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

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Ives's Alleged Homophobia

"...although a few, including Ives, broke contact with him" - This is not true. The article “The Cowell-Ives Relationship: A New Look at Cowell’s Prison Years,” by Leta Miller and Rob Collins, in American Music (Vol. 23, No. 4 (Winter, 2005), pp. 473-492) disproves this. On May 29, 1937, Cowell, in San Quentin, received a letter from Ives saying: "I’ve started to write you a few times or more, but didn’t because I didn’t know what to write or say or what to think or do – and I don’t now – so I’ll shut up! At least I can do all I can & I will to help New M[usic] Editions keep going as well as possible and as you would want… I do hope you can keep well & that things will go well in the future." I saw this letter in 1997 in an exhibition at Lincoln Center at the Cowell centennial conference. It was apparently Ives's wife Harmony who cut off relations with Cowell, not wanting her husband's name to be sullied by controversy. In this period Ives wrote most of his letters through his wife because of his diabetes-related health problems, but this was a rare letter in Ives's own hand. See https://www.artsjournal.com/postclassic/2010/09/homophobia_case_against_ives_c.html I hope someone will remove this lamentable calumny, which has been repeated far too often. Kylegann (talk) 04:57, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

@Kylegann please go ahead and update with the source! --Eezurr (talk) 16:34, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

"Diaspora" is the wrong word

"Compositions" section:

"Cowell wrote in a very wide diaspora of styles"

Per online dictionary, a diaspora is the dispersion of any people from their original homeland. It does not mean anything like range or variety. Edit needed with author's intent in mind. 73.241.67.220 (talk) 01:16, 4 July 2022 (UTC)