Talk:Habesha peoples/Archives/2020/October

Diaspora countries/flags in infobox

I'm not sure exactly which countries/flags we should retain in the infobox, but I think we don't need all of these and might at least pare it down to the listings that cite sources. For example, given the history of the past 45 years, it's hard to imagine there's any substantial Habesha population in Somalia. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but in that case, we need to cite a source that there's a Habesha diaspora population in Somalia. Djibouti and Kenya make more sense but, again, no source. If I look through older versions of the article, the infobox only cites the populations in Ethiopia and Eritrea. I don't know that we need to pare it down that far, but I think right now it's a bit unwieldy. (On the other hand, the addition of other countries in the infobox, at quick glance, might be attributed to the blocked account(s) who've involved themselves with this article over the past year or two.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:01, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

For my part, I'm fine off the bat with getting rid of everything but national origin, & I might be persuadable even on that. But I probably have an unreasonable dislike of infoboxes to begin with. Pathawi (talk) 03:59, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Remove all, unless a source counts the people concerned explicitly as "Habesha". I doubt that any does. Everything else is WP:SYNTH, even if it is just arithmetics with figures of individual ethnicities/nationalites that are considered "Habesha", based on whichever POV. –Austronesier (talk) 11:11, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Good points. I was going to suggest that the only source that breaks things down by language (that I'm aware of) is the Ethiopian census. Presumably other countries do this, too. But then we get into the question of whether language is the same as ethnicity; then there's the issue of whether the ethnicity is Habesha or not, and according to whom. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:26, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Here's a proposed version:

Habesha peoples

Ge'ez: ሐበሠተ, romanized: Ḥäbäśät or Ḥabäśät Amharic: ሐበሻ, አበሻ, romanized: Häbäša, 'äbäša Tigrinya: ሓበሻ, romanized: Ḥabäša
Regions with significant populations
National Origin: Ethiopia Eritrea Diasporic Populations: Eritrean Americans Ethiopian Americans Eritrean Australians Ethiopian Australians Ethiopian Canadians Eritreans in Denmark Ethiopian Jews in Israel Eritreans in Norway Eritreans in Sweden Eritreans in the United Kingdom Ethiopians in the United Kingdom
Languages
Languages of Ethiopia, Languages of Eritrea
Religion
Predominantly: Christianity | Orthodox Tewahedo (Ethiopian Orthodoxy - Eritrean Orthodoxy) · P'ent'ay (Evangelicalism) · Catholicism (Eritrean Catholicism - Ethiopian Catholicism) Minority: Islam-Sunni; Judaism-Beta Israel (ethno-religious group); "Traditional Faiths".

Perhaps also reduce the religions section to Religion in Eritrea & Religion in Ethiopia. I'm not attached to the above at all. Just a proposal. Pathawi (talk) 15:44, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

@Pathawi: it's an improvement, in any case. Thanks, once again! As for religion, maybe either do how you've suggested, or get omit the "Majority" and "Minority" qualifiers (those, and the hard rule in between them, come off as divisive -- I doubt that was the original editor's intent, and I might be the only one who perceived it that way). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:20, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

@Gyrofrog:: &, I suppose, those categories are a little wacky: Muslims outnumber Protestants & Catholics in both Ethiopia & Eritrea. I'm fine with either approach. Pathawi (talk) 01:13, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I think just link to "Religion in..." like you first suggested, the way you've linked to "Languages of...". Other than that your infobox looks fine to me. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:20, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Pathawi's proposal looks fine, no objections to it. Using Religion in Eritrea & Religion in Ethiopia is also uncommited, and depending how you define "Habesha", every reader will find their answers there. –Austronesier (talk) 08:14, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

New batch

Tigayans are not the only people who are Habesha

Tigayans are not the only people who are Habesha, there are several other ethnic group who are Habesha. Everyones knows that Amharas, Agawa, Arogaba, Tigre, Hareri, and several others have always been considered Habesha too, while the Oromos, Beja, Kunuma, Woylata, and others are also Habesha but under an expanded definition. Habeshas aren't only Tigrinya speakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:140:5:A86E:E48C:5E4A:1EF7:1EE7 (talk) 17:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

All Muslim Highlanders (and non-Highlanders) who are Ethiopian or Eritrean are also Habesha

All Muslim Highlanders (and non-Highlanders) who are Ethiopian or Eritrean are also Habesha, people automatically loose their Habesha identity if they're a different religion, there is religious diversity in Ethiopia and Eritrea, even in the highlands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:140:5:A86E:E48C:5E4A:1EF7:1EE7 (talk) 17:46, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Conflicting Definitions of Habesha Exists and Is Perfectly Natural And That Variation Should Be Included

• Understanding Contemporary Ethiopia: Monarchy, Revolution and the Legacy of Meles Zenawi By Gérard Prunier, Éloi Ficquet

• Yates, Brian J. “From Hated to Häbäsha: Oromo Identity Shifts in Wällo and Shäwa during the Late Nineteenth Century.” African Identities, vol. 14, no. 3, Aug. 2016, pp. 194–208. EBSCOhost, doi:10.1080/14725843.2015.1121462.

Some say you can be both Muslim and Habesha while others say you have to be Orthodox to be Habesha. Both conflicting arguments are factual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:140:5:A86E:E48C:5E4A:1EF7:1EE7 (talk) 17:52, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

At this point

There's no reason for us to engage the above. I don't intend to. This doesn't actually engage the article as written & is a bad faith response. The complaints made are about claims that do not actually appear in the article, & the writer has made literally zero effort at constructive engagement. Pathawi (talk) 04:32, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Comment: I've made a note at WP:SPI that Habesha Union's very first edit contained a link to an Instagram account called "Habeshacomedies" (same user name that had been active here over the past couple of weeks). Habesha Union's personal webpage -- at one point, misleadingly cited as an article in an academic journal (see talk archives) -- now contains their version of the events concerning this topic area (including wiki code), including a link back to this talk page. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:56, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Agaw People

Why are our (mine and @Leulseged3:'s edits being deleted?

Here bellow are some peaces of information I got from my friends who know about Eritrean and Ethiopian culture and history that I talked to in a group chat asking them if they've run into the same situation I'm in right now. I copied this conversation down and put it here because I did not have the time and energy to rewrite the whole thing in my own words again. So I'm just leaving this here to help you understand where I am coming from.

Person 1: Hey, aren’t Agaw people Habesha even under the most strictest definitions of Habesha? They don’t speak an Ethiosemitic-languages (that’s not an accurate requirement) they speak Central Cushitic (Agäw)-languages which has had a considerable influence/substratum on Ethiosemitic-languages, and the Agaw were fully integrated into the political, social, and aristocratic structures of the Ethiopian Highlands.

Several Wikipedia editors have been been adding the Agaw to the conservative definition of Habesha (and they keep deleting it). There are conservative/exclusionary and liberal/inclusionary definitions of Habesha identity. The conservative/exclusionary says only Highlanders are Habesha while the liberal/inclusionary definition says anyone of Ethiopian and Eritrean national origin who choose to self-identify as Habesha can do so. Both of these definitions are accurate showing both the historical definition along with modern conventions. But on Wikipedia, it’s insinuating that you have to be (Orthodox Thewahdo) Christian in order to be Habesha and Muslims of these same constituent ethnic groups aren’t considered as such. And in one instance it’s even insinuating that only Tigrayans/Tigrinya speakers are Habesha, people tried to correct it saying this definition may only apply in Eritrea in contrast to Ethiopia (pretty much the main/only Highland ethnic in Eritrea is Tegaru). ...

... when people try to correct the error, that wonts budge and end up deleting it.

See the comparison: https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Habesha_peoples&type=revision&diff=982916442&oldid=982886187

https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Habesha_peoples&type=revision&diff=982880134&oldid=982864272

Person 2:

I consider them to be habesha honestly because of the shared history and culture they have with neighboring ETHIO semetic speaking tribes (especially Amhara

Would y’all say that in order to be considered “Habesha” a tribe has to be both ETHIO semetic speaking and orthodox?

Person 3: No, religion has nothing to do with being Habesha and strictly speaking you had to be an Ethiopian Highlander not necessarily an Semitic language speaker.

Person 1:

I wasn’t saying it’s Ethiosemitic I’m saying even under the strictest of definition for Habesha, the Agwa were considered as such, and traditionally speaking (excluding confusion made by European historians). In other words according to the conservative definition speaking an Ethiosemitic language was never a requirement, the main requirement was being from an ethnic group that hailed from the highlands which traditionally included Central Cushitic speakers like the Agaw.

Person 2: Makes sense I agree

Person 4:

Ya labels don’t mean much anyway. At least in modern times. If someone wants to say they are habesha no one should say no your not and vis versa if someone doesn’t want to be considered habesha that should be respected. It’s a ambiguous term that has held many meanings

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Habeshacomedies (talk • contribs) 20:05, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

More of the same... --Francis Schonken (talk) 04:52, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I am going to request page protection of any article pertaining to Habesha people, Ethiopia and Eritrea, and other related subjects because this has been similar grammar, and just about the same character of every other sockpuppet that has been blocked from editing on Wikipedia. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 13:28, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Edits I Proposed

Can we go over the edits that I had made, Please? I don't know what is wrong with my edits. All I did was try to clarify there are two major distinct definitions for Habesha. I know that it already contained both, but the wording is confusing and I didn't want it to confuse others. Habesha people are a Supra-Ethnic group or cultural community with very vague definitions. It contains two types of Supraethnicities, one is a Meta-ethnicity and the other is a Panethnicity. The Meta-ethnicity portion is mostly restricted to the ethnic groups that haile from the Ethiopian Highlands and Eritrean Highlands, and who's ancestral language is either an Ethiosemitic or Central Cushitic language, and are linked by a Common Ancestry. The Panethnicity portion is more inclusive of other ethnic groups and is mostly used by diaspora communities outside of their ethnic homelands as a broader community identifier encompassing all peoples of Eritrean and Ethiopian national origin who self-identify as such regardless of ethnicity; these people groups don't always share the same common ancestry (some do) but the main point of using the Panethnicity is about identifying with a larger cultural community that encompass several cultures and ethnic groups with these groups having interrelated but distinct cultural Commonalities. The Panethnicity is an offshoot of Ethiopian and Eritrean national identity in communities outside of their ethnic homelands or country of origin because most of them by now have lost their Ethiopian citizenship by gaining the citizenship of the country these diaspora communities live now as well as the national identity leveling through cultural diffusion between those of Eritrean and Ethiopian national origin who already have a linked culture and history while combining the cultural practices of their new homes outside their ethnic homelands. The Panethnicity not only encompasses the peoples of Ethiopia and Eritrea and people of Eritrean and Ethiopian national origin, it also encompasses the cultural practices and Habesha regionalism (that is unique to their city, province/state, geographic region, costal sea board, etc.) that they have adopted in their new home. With this Habesha diaspora regionalism, Eritrean Americans and Ethiopian Americans are closer in culture to each other than Eritreans and Ethiopians in their motherland, or in North American, US-Canada East Coast Ethiopians and Eritreans having a regional cultural similarity to each other that is distinct from their West Coast counterparts in both the USA and Canada. Another example would be the regional distinctiveness that contrasts each other between DMV Habeshas (Washington DC Metro), ATL/Atlanta Habeshas (Metropolitan Atlanta /other parts of Georgia), and Toronto Habesha or YYC Habesha (Greater Toronto Area/Southern Ontario). Separate Ethiopian and Eritrean national identities don't adequately describe this phenomenon, so a pan-ethnic sense of Habesha identity emerged encompassing Ethiopia, Eritrea, the various ethnic groups of both, people of both national origins, and the Habesha diaspora regionalism that make them distinct in a way that Ethiopians and Eritreans in one region are closer to each other than they are to their counterparts in another region or country. (Habeshacomedies (talk) 18:01, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

WP:RS. Pathawi (talk) 04:17, 15 October 2020 (UTC)