Talk:French cruiser Guichen (1897)

GA

Seeing it is up for GA, I decided to check if the article has taken any steps backward since I abandoned it to the capable hands of the ship people in February 2014. Two things I notice. (1) We need an article on the Black Sea mutinies. I think the red link should be restored. (2) Her role in the rescue of the Armenians is told in less detail. She didn't merely participate in it, she started it. Srnec (talk) 00:23, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

The question is, what is the appropriate title of an article on the French mutinies in 1919?

Is it? The early version of the article stated

"In September, under Captain Joseph Brisson, she helped evacuate Armenian resistors from Musa Dagh after one of her crew spotted an Armenian flag flying over the fortress. She conveyed her refugees to Port Said. It was, according to Lord Bryce, "the only story ... with a happy ending" in his report on the ttreatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire."

The current version states

"On 12 and 13 September, Guichen participated in the evacuation of some 4,000 Armenians from the city of Antioch, along with Amiral Charner, Desaix, D'Estrées Foudre, and the British seaplane carrier HMS Anne. The Armenian civilians had been pursued by Ottoman forces during the Armenian Genocide."

This strikes me as a more encyclopedic description. The name of the captain isn't particularly relevant (unless he was a notable individual - I don't know that he was or wasn't), nor are Lord Bryce's comments, IMO we now have specific dates, the number of evacuees, and the other vessels involved. We've also placed it in the context of the Armenian Genocide, which is important. Parsecboy (talk) 00:41, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

But that paragraph could go in the article on any one of those ships. If Guichen were in fact just one of several who showed up, I would agree. But she wasn't. She was the ship that first made contact with the Armenians. The key missing part is "after one of her crew spotted an Armenian flag flying over the fortress". I'd have to look into it more closely to get the exact dates and sequence of events, but all sources agree that Guichen made first contact. I also think Antioch is wrong. The Turks were between the Armenians and Antioch. It was Musa Dagh that was evacuated. And Jean-Joseph Brisson is notable. Commanded the French at Riga in 1919. Srnec (talk) 01:16, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

The two locations might not be mutually exclusive; the Ottomans had pursued the Armenians to Musa Dagh, but obviously they were not directly evacuated from the mountain. The French might well have sent boats up the Orontes to Antakya, where the Armenians were actually embarked. I've added a few details from Peterson's book that you originally cited.

We'd need a source for Brisson to add him to the article. He's not mentioned in Peterson. Parsecboy (talk) 12:09, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:French cruiser Guichen (1897)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Harrias (talk · contribs) 10:47, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I'll take a look at this one. Harrias ^talk 10:47, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, busy week.

• Add an article description.

References

• Are all suitably formatted in a consistent style to reliable sources. (No action needed).

Images

• Are all suitably tagged with appropriate captions except for File:French cruiser Guichen NH 78936.jpg; a bit of stray code in the Commons description for that one I think. Harrias ^talk 13:32, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Ah, it was a bracket issue that broke the template, good catch

Prose

• "..to the larger Royal Navy.." Clarify that the Royal Navy is British.
  • Good idea
• Wikilink materiel, otherwise someone at some point will change it to material, assuming it is a typo.
  • Done
• "..for a top speed of 23.5 knots (43.5 km/h; 27.0 mph) Coal storage amounted.." Missing full-stop.
  • Good catch
• "The sloped portion increased in thickness to 100 mm (4 in), though toward the bow and stern, it was reduced to 40 mm (1.6 in)." In the infobox, the imperial figures are given as 1.6 to 3.9 in, rather than 1.6 to 4 in.
  • Fixed
• "Guichen was built Ateliers et Chantiers de la Loire shipyard Nantes.." This feels like it is missing a couple of words: maybe "Guichen was built at Ateliers et Chantiers de la Loire shipyard in Nantes.." or "Guichen was built by Ateliers et Chantiers de la Loire at their shipyard in Nantes.."
  • Fixed, wonder what I was doing when I wrote that ;)
• "The ship was launched on 26 October 1897. Guichen was completed in 1899." Not keen on the short, snappy sentences; maybe blend them together?
  • Merged
• Wikilink French Indochina.
  • Done. Thanks Harrias! Parsecboy (talk) 01:13, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

That's the lot. Harrias ^talk 13:32, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your work on this, I'm happy it now meets the GA criteria. Harrias ^talk 07:06, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Refs

The footnotes are not consistent. Some contain a date and others do not. Srnec (talk) 23:02, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The ones with dates only have them to disambiguate them (i.e., there are two books by Jordan & Caresse cited and we have to be able to tell which one is being referenced by a given footnote). Thanks for adding the bit on Brisson, by the way. Parsecboy (talk) 23:12, 10 August 2020 (UTC)