Talk:Fife

population

""almost a third of whom live in the three principal towns of Dunfermline, Kirkcaldy and Glenrothes. Dunfermline has Fife's largest population of over 78,000."

that is utter CRAP!

Kirkcaldy is the biggest town with only 49'000 then Dunfermline 46'000 , that is from actully official record from the council! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.205.118.128 (talk) 23:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

the populations of the three main towns (Kirkcaldy, Dunfermline and Glenrothes) are all very close. you could argue that Dunfermline is the largest if you count the surrounding area of Rosyth-Inverkeithing-Dalgety Bay on top of the existing population. Kilnburn (talk) 16:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

notable fifers

Should this list be reorganized? I'm not a native, so I'd hate to prioritize somebody else's local heros, but both Adam Smith and Gordon Brown are buried in the middle of the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.86.240.9 (talk) 21:32, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Gordon Brown is not from Fife, could someone edit please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.251.105.110 (talk) 18:34, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Musical Instrument

There's no page on the fife (6 holed flute) musical instrument?

The disambiguation page Fife (disambiguation) mentioned at the top of the article has it as the first thing - simply Fife (musical instrument). Robovski 23:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

---

also occasionally known as Fifeshire

It is not occasionally known as Fifeshire but incorrectly known as Fifeshire.

You'll find people in Fife take offence at it being called Fifeshire.

---

Indeed. It's always interested me how Fife has been a Kingdom in its own right, a traditional county, a "reformed" county, a region and is still an administrative area... all under the name of "Fife".

Why is it the Kingdom of Fife, the public must know. --62.6.139.10 15:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Most documents which refer to it as "Fifeshire" are not Scottish. This has also happened with Ross, which was clumsily "renamed" Rossshire.

CFD

The related Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament from Fife constituencies has been nominated for deletion. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page.

--Mais oui! 09:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Governance

Just updated the scottish parliament constituencies. Please do not change them, they were outdated. They are now correct. 217.42.235.218 (talk) 11:35, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

King of Fife

I have removed a paragraph in the History section which I believe to be vandalism. NotMiserable (talk) 15:50, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Population, localities and settlements

The population figures given for the three largest towns in the lede appear to be for "settlements" rather than "localities" but the link is dead so one can't be certain. Per the definitions here it is the latter that pertains, "the more recognisable towns and cities", so the figures given are incorrect. Annoyingly I can't find the actual figures themselves. I believe the latest estimates are that Dunfermline has just overtaken Kirkcaldy but without access to the stats wouldn't want to state that definitively. Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:26, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Gordon Brown

Gordon Brown was born in greater Glasgow and his family lived there until he was three, so he also has some ties there. Thereafter he was brought up in Kirkcaldy, all his schooling was there, he has represented only Fife constituencies and he has lived, or at least maintained a home there, all or the bulk of his life since. He even supports the mighty Raith Rovers and has done since he was a laddie. The repeated assertion that he "is not from Fife or a Fifer" is not supportable. Stop removing the reference to him. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:48, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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'Fife' - Instrument vs Location?

When searching Wiki for "fife", the default page it takes you to is this page, for the 'council area in Scotland'. All other instruments (as far as I am aware) that share a name with a location take you to the instrument first, not the location... why doesn't 'fife' go to the instrument page? (Other instruments that are also locations: drum, trumpet, marimba, etc...) Please advise, thanks! Walterblue222 (talk) 21:44, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Never heard of an instrument called "fife" before you mentioned it, which probably explains why the more well known council area comes first. Also, the other instruments places you mention aren't really comparable to somewhere with 371,000 population... Boothy m (talk) 22:14, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

WP:PRIMARYTOPICs are decided on a case-by-case basis, on their own merits. A rule such as "musical instrument always trumps place name" would be a rather odd and arbitrary rule. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:45, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. Boothy m, you've never heard of a fife? Fife and drum? I'm not convinced that the council area is "more well known"... I wasn't aware that Fife had that large a population! Marimba has a population near 30,000... not as large as 'Fife' but not inconsequential. Do you know when/why the location was decided to be the primary topic? Thanks. Walterblue222 (talk) 00:33, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Correct, I've never heard of a fife - though I'm assuming it's more popular in America than the UK? And it would be more like pipes and drums here in Scotland! I don't think it has ever been decided, just that the location was created 18 months before the instrument page. Boothy m (talk) 21:47, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Is there a way to have the default be the disambiguation page? Fife and Drum Corps have been a staple in American history since the Revolutionary War, and were used as military musick most notably in the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. They were important both in camp and during battle, as they would signal commands to the troops, provide the beat at different tempos while on the move (march, quickstep, short troop, etc.) and announce schedules for daily routines (meal calls, taptoe, make/break camp, etc.). Fife & Drum Corps are extremely popular in New England, and throughout the United States of America especially for living history events, reenactments, musters, parades, ceremonies and concerts. Fife & Drum bands are also used in some other countries, particularly Switzerland (especially Basel). There is still a Fife and Drum Corps in the United States Army 3rd Infantry regiment, known as the Old Guard Fife and Drum Corps, who are the official escort to the President of the United States of America. They perform at armed forces arrival ceremonies for visiting dignitaries and heads of state at the White House, and participate in every Presidential inaugural parade, and serve as goodwill ambassadors throughout Europe, Australia and Canada; notable sporting events the Corps has performed at include NCAA bowl games, NBA games, NFL games, the Kentucky Derby, the Indianapolis 500, and the Olympics. Walterblue222 (talk) 19:42, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Doing a Google search for "Fife" is not necessarily definitive but, having done so, even checking out the results with different regional settings around the globe, the historic county/contemporary council area is overwhelmingly the primary topic in regard to hits. With some versions of the search, no mention of the instrument comes near the top for hits, in others the two leading hits are the two Wikipedia articles: this one, then the "(instrument)" article but followed by innumerable mentions of the place and only maybe a dictionary definition or two for the instrument, one or two companies or organisations, the acronym for which is FIFE, before you have dug deep into the successive pages of hits. Trying a search googling the terms "Fife Scotland" and "Fife instrument" gives about an order of magnitude greater in hits for the former than the latter. The current primary topic is the primary topic.

By the way, in regard to assessing this kind of thing, you might find WP:WORLDVIEW informative, and I say this to indicate what we both have to bear in mind, not to claim that I'm unbiased and you aren't. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:29, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Um, perhaps Google presents results based on who does the search? The very first thing that comes up when searching "Fife" is the instrument... "fife: noun: fife; plural noun: fifes 1. a kind of small shrill flute used with the drum in military bands. verb: fife; 3rd person present: fifes; past tense: fifed; past participle: fifed; gerund or present participle: fifing 1. play the fife. Origin mid 16th century: from German Pfeife ‘pipe’, or from French fifre from Swiss German Pfifer ‘piper’."

Not sure why this wouldn't come up the same for you. Also check out: http://www.fifedrum.org/links.shtml for a list of 80+ current organizations, as well as instrument manufacturers, music catalogs, links for books and recordings, tutorials and lessons, etc... far from "one or two companies or organizations", and you definitely don't have to 'dig deep' to find them. Some of these organizations have hundreds of members and long histories, just because they don't have a large online presence doesn't negate their validity. Yes, there are many links regarding the place when searching simply for "fife", most of which are travel agents, tourist info and vacation guides... advertisements, mainly, as far as I've seen. Walterblue222 (talk) 18:11, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Also, it is important to note that the Anglicized, English version of the location is titled "Fifeshire". This is the English encyclopedia, and in the English dictionary "fife" is the instrument while "Fifeshire" is the location... Walterblue222 (talk) 18:24, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, per my previous post, depending on regional setting, amongst other things, it does. With a search with regional settings for the US it gives a dictionary definition at the top left and Wikipedia definition at the top right, then a host of other hits, overwhelmingly for the subject of this article. I think with all other regional searches I carried out this Wikipedia entry was at, or at the very least near the top and a dictionary def may have been listed early on but again, overwhelmingly the entries in the list regarded this topic.

I am not saying that the instrument is obscure, or that it has no presence on the internet. It has, however, demonstrably significantly less of a presence than the subject of this article.

Yes, it has occasionally been referred to as Fifeshire in the fairly distant past. If you are trying to promote the notion that this is its proper, or any way approaching common or current, name and that it should not be called Fife, that is frankly risible. If you went there and referred to it so, people would fall about laughing. Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:46, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm not saying that "Fifeshire" is the proper Scottish name according to people within the location, but rather that "Fifeshire" is the Anglicized term used by people speaking the English language, who are not from the location. Japan is the English term for the East Asian country, but its inhabitants refer to it as Nippon or Nihon, not Japan. There are other countries and locations that have one name in the native language of the people inhabiting and a different, Anglicized name when other people refer to it in the English language. It is this principle that suggests that, outside from it's inhabitants, the proper English term used for the council area in Scotland is "Fifeshire". If this was a Scottish (or Gaelic) version of Wikipedia, it would be understandable to label the area "Fife", but this is the English encyclopedia, and in English, the proper name of the location appears to be "Fifeshire". The term "fife" in English does not refer to a Scottish location, but rather the instrument. For this reason, I believe there are two options: 1) change the primary page to be the disambiguation page, or 2) change the primary page to the instrument page, and move the page for the location to be the primary page for "Fifeshire". Walterblue222 (talk) 19:47, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm in equal measure of hilarity and bafflement. You apparently had barely heard of the place a couple of days ago and now you are making baseless learned proclamations? Have you just made this up? It really is utter nonsense. What is your reliable source for the assertion that ""Fifeshire" is the Anglicized term used by people speaking the English language"? It is "a" term but not a widely-employed one. Even were this remotely true, if the English spoken in Fife is not good enough for you it is good enough for Wikipedia.

I take it you have also checked "Fifeshire" for Google hits and have seen that it is much lower than that for "Fife Scotland", around two full orders of magnitude, depending on settings, and lower even than those for "Fife instrument", by around one order of magnitude. What's more, you'll be toiling for contemporary references to "Fifeshire"; they are overwhelmingly historical and scant in comparison. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:12, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you would afford me the same respect I've shown you. "Baseless learned proclamations"? No, my assertions are not baseless, nor are they "utter nonsense". I'd ask that you refrain from personal attacks, as I have remained civil. It is possible to disagree without discord and insults.

You have provided no information to suggest that the term "fife" is an incorrect title for the instrument, or "not a widely-employed one", and your exposure seems quite limited as you hadn't heard of the instrument at all a few days ago - yet you are making unfounded accusations regarding the validity of the term - I haven't seen a single English dictionary listing the location in the definition of "fife" above the definition of the instrument, if mentioned at all. Every definition of "fife" as a location clarifies that it is referring to "Fifeshire". Probably because the location "fife" is not an English title. Are you disputing this?

The "English spoken in fife" is Scottish-English; you're welcome to provide a Scottish-English dictionary, but the English term "fife" is undeniably defined as the instrument.

There is not a secondary term for the instrument fife - a fife is a fife. The location referred to as "fife" is also known as Fib, Fif, and Fifeshire, in the English language and in the rest of the world, regardless of what the inhabitants of the location call it. You say that the location has "been referred to as Fifeshire in the fairly distant past", but this is not true. On the very page itself, there is a map entitled "Fifeshire & Kinross-shire Civil Parish map" - that's today, not in some "distant past". When searching Google Maps with the term "Fifeshire", it automatically brings up the location.

"Fifeshire" is overwhelmingly historical and scant in comparison? Yes, words are historical. They progress and change throughout history.

The instrument known as the fife has been used since medieval times (which began around 500 AD) and there is no other name (in English, at least) for this instrument.

The location currently known as "fife" or "Fifeshire" is recorded as "Fib" in A.D. 1150 and "Fif" in 1165. Even if the location predates the instrument, the name of the location was not "fife" at this time. "The earliest known reference to the common epithet The Kingdom of Fife dates from only 1678" - I guess the term "fairly distant past" is subject to interpretation, but I certainly wouldn't consider less than 350 years ago to be the "fairly distant past".

The sources you provided actually support my argument: the term "fife" internationally refers to the instrument, while the location "fife" is Scottish-English, and "the English Wikipedia prefers no national variety of the language over any other." Therefor, the instrument universally referred to as a "fife" should take precedent over the nationally-prefered "fife" location title.

The page you reference even gives examples: "Use universally accepted terms rather than those less widely distributed, especially in titles. For example, glasses is preferred to the national varieties spectacles (British English) and eyeglasses (American English)." Thus, for the location, the universally accepted English term "Fifeshire" (English) would be preferred to the nationally-exclusive Scottish title of "Fife" (Scottish-English).

Due to the overwhelming evidence:

1. the instrument has a longer history

2. the locations title, in English (not Scottish-English) is "Fifeshire"

3. historically recorded terms for the location are "Fib" and "Fif", not "Fife"

4. the earliest known reference to the location being called "Fife" was in 1678

5. "fife" is the universally accepted term for the instrument, which has no other name

6. "fife" is a nationally-prefered Scottish-English title variant of the name, while "Fifeshire" is the Anglicized English version

I believe that the primary page for "fife" should be the instrument, while the page regarding the location be moved to "Fifeshire" or "Fife (Location)", both of which would also remain linked to from the "Fife (Disambiguation)" page.

Do you have any information that invalidates the 6 points above? Or is the strongest support for your argument you can make "if you went there and referred to it so, people would fall about laughing", your personal feelings of "hilarity and bafflement", suggesting that I "made this up", calling my argument "utter nonsense" and "fairly risible"?

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain the number of pages and advertisements indexed by Google is irrelevant, and certainly not strong enough of an argument to hinge the fate of a primary article on. Walterblue222 (talk) 15:40, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Your post is so riddled with errors and misunderstandings that I barely know where to start. I have made not a single remark of a personal nature; I have combatted only your grossly inaccurate factual claims. You have apparently misunderstood much of the posts above and the material upon which you are basing your claims.

It is @Boothy m: that had not heard of the instrument. I certainly have. I "have provided no information to suggest that the term "fife" is an incorrect title for the instrument" because that is not the case that I am arguing. It is the term for the instrument, there is no dispute in that regard. Dictionaries contain definitions of words, not lists of proper names, place-names or otherwise.

"Every definition of "fife" as a location clarifies that it is referring to "Fifeshire"." Presumably this is in support for your claim that "Fifeshire" is the common and actively the preferred term. As previously requested, list WP:RSs that actually specifically state this; as many as you like. You must avoid the WP:SYNTH that you employ in your posts above.

The "map entitled "Fifeshire & Kinross-shire Civil Parish map" reproduced in the article is a historical document from the Imperial Gazetteer of Scotland Volume 1, of 1854. (It may possibly be the 1868 edition but that is hardly "today" either.)

The bit about the "common epithet The Kingdom of Fife" regards the first instance of "Kingdom" being applied to Fife, not to the first instance of the term "Fife". Your dictionary will have a definition of "epithet" if required.

Need I go on? It is an indulgence to expect others to go through this level of detail in responding to your synth and misunderstandings. You are pushing a WP:POV and you won't let facts get in your way. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:50, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

So, my priority request to you is to provide all those reliable sources you claim to exist which state that "Fifeshire" is the preferred contemporary term for the place and that "Fife" is not. Specifically that, or I don't wish to know. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:55, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

You're correct in stating that "It is @Boothy m: that had not heard of the instrument.", and I admit I got that wrong. It is the only statement in your argument that is undeniably correct. The confusion was because you replied in the conversation that @Boothy m had started, instead of making a new response to my comment.

As for personal attacks, you mocked me, suggested that I "made this up", called my argument "utter nonsense", "fairly risible", "baseless learned proclamations". These are not neutral remarks, and I don't appreciate the ridicule. You claim that your remarks were not personal, and follow that false statement with another personal attack stating that my suggestions are "grossly inaccurate factual claims" and stating that I "apparently misunderstood much of the posts above" despite the fact that I clearly and respectfully explained my logic and reasoning to you.

You say that I "claim that "Fifeshire" is the common and actively preferred term" - I didn't claim this and this is not my assertion, as I explained in detail earlier.

Are you saying that Wikipedia is not a reliable resource itself?

I did not "employ" WP:SYNTH in my posts above, and I'm not sure what you think supports that accusation.

"The "map entitled "Fifeshire & Kinross-shire Civil Parish map" reproduced in the article is a historical document from the Imperial Gazetteer of Scotland Volume 1, of 1854" - okay, so not only is the Anglicized term "Fifeshire", but even Scottish sources refer to it as such. This doesn't support your argument and actually works against it.

Need I go on?

You have provided nothing to invalidate the points I made, aside from the 4th, and the way the article is worded "The earliest known reference to the common epithet The Kingdom of Fife dates from only 1678" does not explicitly state that it is referring to the epithet "Kingdom", but rather "The Kingdom of Fife", and there are no other references to the location being called "Fife" before this.

You conclude your comment by accusing me of "synth and misunderstandings", which while not a personal attack is certainly degrading and disrespectful. I'm not "pushing a WP:POV" and you haven't provided any facts or sources that negate my statements, aside from your interpretation regarding the epithet bit.

1. the instrument has a longer history

2. the locations title, in English (not Scottish-English) is "Fifeshire"

3. historically recorded terms for the location are "Fib" and "Fif", not "Fife"

4. the earliest known reference to the location being called "Fife" was in 1678

5. "fife" is the universally accepted term for the instrument, which has no other name

6. "fife" is a nationally-preferred Scottish-English title variant of the name, while "Fifeshire" is the Anglicized English version

Do you have ANY sources or information that invalidates points 1, 2, 3, 5 or 6 above? Walterblue222 (talk) 18:14, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

• "Fife" is the English (England) name per the Ordnance Survey which is based in Southampton. I have always known it as "Fife" and I don't think I've heard "Fifeshire". Counties that are named after settlements tend to include "-shire" to distinguish (such as Aberdeen, though that is now an independent council area) and Fife isn't one. "Fife" is also the name Encyclopædia Britannica uses. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

  I'd say from what I can see that "Fifeshire" is archaic at best today, some old sources do list it. While WP doesn't have to use the official name, it does tend to use the common modern name. Indeed if disambiguation is needed it should be to Fife, Scotland similar to Angus, Scotland. All the other council areas (ignoring Falkirk and Stirling which are named after towns, and Highland which is named after the Highlands) are at the base name, similar to the fact that all English counties (ignoring Durham, which is named after its capital and is at its common name anyway, and West Midlands which is also a region and is also not a traditional county) are at the base name and all US states are at the base name apart from Georgia, Washington and New York. Drum and trumpet are far better known that fife (which I'd never heard of), and marimba only has a stub which doesn't even list the population and whose primary language is Portuguese, while Fife's most common language is English (AFAIK). If you think this should be disambiguated, you should file a RM at Talk:Fife (disambiguation) to move the DAB to the base name and this to Fife, Scotland but I can't see any case to put the instrument at the base name, even though I would usually take the view that a noun should have priority over a place, it doesn't appear to be sensible here since its far from an every day one. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:25, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Using the suggested tools for determination of the primary topic would swiftly indicate that we have it right as things stand. Ratios for place v instrument:

WhatLinksHere, around 3800:235

article traffic stats, 660:170 daily average

redirect traffic stats, 676:220 daily average

Using the modified Google search string and Google books is harder to interpret, dependent on the search terms used. “Fife instrument” looks broadly ok as a term in a general search but for books hit more references to legal instruments relating to the place than it did for the flute. “Fife music”, after the first few pages of results, seemed to relate broadly as much to one topic as to the other and many unconnected to either. I guess “Fife Scotland” may have some hits which actually relate to the instrument in Scotland but I didn’t spot any. That said, even the most generous interpretation given to searches for the instrument gave a place:instrument ratio of about 3:1; otherwise about 10:1 or 30:1. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:03, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm personally skeptical about using link counts for determining primary topics since they will generate hits through people clicking on them as opposed to searching for the term, though they do show that the place has much more topics associated with it. Another test might be the number of WP articles on them, which is 13 for the instrument v 49 for the place. Like what I argued at Talk:St Kilda, Scotland#Requested move 19 October 2018 there is a direct link to the instrument but St Kilda has few other meanings and the other common topic derives its name from it. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:47, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm unclear about your points above, though I think we are in broad agreement that the current primary topic is clearly correct? My queries are: Surely, regarding your first sentence, it is traffic stats generated by links that you are calling into doubt, not the count of links, the very pertinence of which, presumably, is to indicate the number of associated topics. I'm unclear as to what your count of 13 and 49 is of; can you clarify? In the last sentence are you saying that those looking for the instrument but landing at the primary topic need only make one click to be redirected to their intended article (and the latter part of the sentence is an aside about why there is no such redirect at St Kilda)? Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:27, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm in agreement that this topic is the best candidate for being primary. I'm not in agreement that the place is the clear primary topic, as opposed to having the DAB at the base name, though I do think its clear that the instrument shouldn't be at the base name. My point about internal wikilinks is that if a higher percentage of the 660 who land on this article follow an internal link (say 10% of the 660 for example, with 80% from Google and 10% from entering "Fife" into the search box) as opposed to say 5% of the 170 for the instrument (83% from Google and 12% from entering "Fife" into the search box). In other words if a higher percentage of views come from people clicking internal links, there is likely a lower percentage of people who land here by entering "Fife" into the search box (those who benefit most from primary topics). So a higher percentage of the 660 may come from wikilinks than the 170. Sorry that's not that clear but I hope it helps.

The 13 and 49 is the number of WP article globally on the instrument v the place.

Yes my point about the mouse clicks does apply to both Fife and St Kilda, since there is a direct link to the instrument, readers can find it in 1 click which would have been the case for the place in Victoria if the proposed moved had have gone ahead. I was also saying that due to the instrument being unrelated to this place and there being more uses of "Fife" its more expensive for Fife to be primary than St Kilda. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:05, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks for the info, User:Crouch, Swale. Is it relevant that the location 'Fife' is also referred to as 'Fib', 'Fif', and (although it may be old) 'Fifeshire', while the intstrument has no other name? Also is it relevant that the instrument seems to have a longer history than the location? User:Matt Lunker, is the number of clicks from Google search relevant, and are Google link counts considered reliable sources? Also, regarding WP articles, there are others that refer to the location as 'Fifeshire'... for instance "The Fifeshire Artillery Militia was a British artillery militia regiment of the 19th century. It was based in and named after Fifeshire in Scotland." and also "The 1st Fife Artillery Volunteers, later the Fifeshire Heavy Battery, was a volunteer unit first recruited in Fifeshire, Scotland, in 1860, which fought on the Western Front in the First World War." - the second example not only lists "Fifeshire" as the title of the location, but also seems to suggest that 'Fifeshire' IS an appropriate title, because the '1st Fife Artillery Volunteers' changed into the 'Fifeshire Heavy Battery'... So 'Fife' became 'Fifeshire'? This doesn't seem to support the claim that 'Fifeshire' is an archaic or incorrect term for the location... Walterblue222 (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

  Yes alternative names are relevant, if a topic is known by multiple names, it means that some searches may have arrived through other terms (as indicated by the "redirect traffic stats" but as noted Fife doesn't have other common names today (even if it has stayed in the names of some entities). Yes it is relevant that the instrument has a longer history, the 2nd criteria of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:05, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@Walterblue222:, this link suggests tools for determination of the primary topic, as already posted above and will answer much of your last post, including the pertinence of Google hits of various sorts.

In answer to an earlier post, Wikipedia is fundamentally not to be regarded as a Reliable Source for itself. See WP:CIRCULAR.

Aerophones may have a longer history than the place but I find it unlikely and have seen no evidence that the specific one called a fife has anything of the sort. And the criterion is not longer history anyway but “long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term”; not the same thing.

I’ve not pointed out your mis-rendering before as I didn’t wish to give the impression that it annoys me, which it doesn’t, but as your attempt to ping me just now failed as a result I am User:Mutt Lunker, not "Matt" Lunker. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:33, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I see what you did there, calling it an "aerophone". You're trying to disprove the fact that there isn't another name for the instrument known as a "fife". Yes, it's an aerophone, but this isn't an instrument name, it is a huge category that includes the majority of other instruments, including every wind instrument and brass instrument. A fife is a fife, is a fife, is a fife. There are no other names for the instrument, labeling it an 'aerophone' is like saying a 'sofa' is 'furniture' - technically correct, but an extremely vague category.

Mis-rendering? What did I mis-render? Sorry for getting your username wrong, I guess?

You quoted the criteria being “long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term”. The instrument has a long-term significance, notability and educational value, as I explained quite awhile ago. The 'fife' is a musical instrument while the location is a place, not a topic, so based on this quote the instrument page should take precedence. Walterblue222 (talk) 02:23, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Please carefully read what I said again (similar thoughts have occurred to me continually throughout this discussion). You evidently thought you saw pretty much the opposite of what I actually "did there". Far from claiming that "aeorophone" is a synonym for "fife" I am saying that the generic class which the instrument in question is in (the aeorophone) has a very long history (in fact into pre-history) but the specific instrument in question (the fife) has a much shorter one (the "pfeife" came to a level of prominence in Switzerland in the 15th century, according to The Oxford Companion to Musical Instruments). Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:54, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

The instrument known as the fife "originated in medieval Europe" (which began around 500 AD) and there is no other name (in English, at least) for this instrument. Just because something is not prominent doesn't mean it didn't exist. The "pfeife" may have "come to prominence in the 15th century", but existed earlier than that ("pfeife" comes from the Latin word "pipare"). All of this supports the claim that the fife existed before the location, which was recorded as "Fib" in A.D. 1150 and "Fif" in 1165; thus, even if the location predates the instrument, the name of the location was not "fife" at that time.

What are you saying I "misrendered"?

The instrument has long-term significance, greater enduring notability and educational value than the location; furthermore, the word 'fife' is a term for the musical instrument, while the title "fife" is a name for the location... I think it's important to note that while 'fife' is the term for the musical instrument (and also the 'name' for the musical instrument) the 'name' of the location is 'fife', but the term 'fife' doesn't apply to the location (places have names, not 'terms').

Based on this and the previous points discussed, the primary page for the word 'fife' should be the instrument page, and the page regarding the location should be moved to "Fife (location)" and/or the disambiguation page. Walterblue222 (talk) 04:37, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Per above, “your mis-rendering” of “User:Mutt Lunker, (as) "Matt" Lunker” caused “your attempt to ping me (to fail)".

It is self-evidently unwarranted to imply that origins during a lengthy historical period are origins at the very start of that period (aside from your quote being WP:CIRCULARly sourced). This sort of thing is typical of your arguments. These origins anyway are as the generic transverse flute, not the specific fife. Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:06, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

@Mutt Lunker:, I'll concede that the year of origin is quite vague. However, even if you consider the time of origin to be at the end of the time period, it is still before the location 'Fib', 'Fif', 'Fifeshire' was named "Fife". The origins I mentioned are of the fife, not the transverse flute; the transverse flute dates back much further.

The word 'fife' is a term used for the musical instrument, while the title "fife" is a name for the location... I think it's important to note that while 'fife' is the term for the musical instrument, it is the name of the location. :Therefor, the term 'fife' doesn't apply to the location (places have names, not 'terms').

By the criteria you quoted (“long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term”) it is the term (for the musical instrument) that should take precedence. Do you have anything else to invalidate this? Walterblue222 (talk) 20:54, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

a) See above, again. b) That's not the way it works at Wikipedia; if you make a claim, the onus is on you to validate it with WP:RSs not just say it, then repeat it ad infinitum with your every post. There is no requirement to invalidate unsupported claims. Done waiting. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:44, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

@Mutt Lunker: "See above, again", what? Can you be a bit more specific? That's not the way WHAT works at Wikipedia? Can you be more specific??? I have supported my claims, many times, and have included more support and information with nearly every response I've posted. Done waiting for what? Can you be more specific??? Do you have anything else to add to this, or are you conceding? Walterblue222 (talk) 17:30, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Oh man, after this colossal thread (try reading the whole thing again, slowly and with consideration), if those are genuine questions, I concede only that it is futile to attempt dialogue. Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:50, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Your lack of specificity only makes serves to confuse. Perhaps that's you prerogative, though? You keep dodging relevant questions and your attitude is quite grating. Do you have anything else to add to this, or are you conceding that your arguments don't support the location's page having precedence over the instrument's page? I'm trying to help you understand my point here, and give you opportunities to respond, but you seem to just be either denying or ignoring most of the things I've said without responding directly. It's quite uncouth. Walterblue222 (talk) 22:12, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Walterblue222 I suggest you start a formal RM proposal since this clearly isn't going anywhere, I anyway strongly oppose making the instrument primary since there will be many links (both internal and external, see User:Andrewa/Incoming links) pointing to the place and it would be terribly confusing to send them onto the instrument, even if it does have a longer history. The best you can expect is putting the DAB at the base name. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:16, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

All right, thanks @Crouch, Swale:. What is a DAB? Walterblue222 (talk) 23:09, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

@Walterblue222: DAB is short for disambiguation where WP has different subjects that share the same name like Mercury for example. In the case of Fife, because the place in Scotland is currently deemed the primary topic, the disambiguation page is titled Fife (disambiguation). If you think the DAB should be at Fife (meaning there is no primary topic and the instrument stays at Fife (instrument)) you should follow Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting multiple page moves and add the template to Talk:Fife (disambiguation) with "new title for page 1" being "Fife" and "new title for page 2" being Fife, Scotland. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Fife (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 03:17, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Principal settlements

The table below was rejected when introduced into the article. Maybe it can be used as inspiration, if a similar table is added to the article in the future.

Settlement	Population (2022)	Location
Dunfermline	54,990	South
Kirkcaldy	50,370	Central
Glenrothes	38,360	Central
St Andrews	18,410	North
Rosyth	13,570	South
Cowdenbeath	12,030	South
Methil	10,890	Central
Dalgety Bay	9,710	South
Leven	9,420	Central
Cupar	8,960	North
Lochgelly	7,300	South
Burntisland	6,630	South
Ballingry	5,940	Central
Cardenden	5,190	Central
Inverkeithing	4,820	South
Newport-on-Tay	4,210	North
Buckhaven	4,050	Central
Anstruther	3,950	North
Tayport	3,750	North
Leuchars	3,160	North
Kincardine	2,940	South
Kinghorn	2,940	South
Newburgh	2,110	North
Auchtermuchty	2,070	Central
Elie and Earlsferry	640	North

Presently there are several county articles that contain both a main article settlements list as well as a settlement template in the bottom of the article, in which there is an overlap between the settlement list items and the settlement template items.

Examples:

Scotland

• South Lanarkshire
• Stirling (council area)
• East Dunbartonshire]
• West Dunbartonshire]

England

• Cumbria
• Tyne and Wear
• North Yorkshire
• Lancashire
• West Yorkshire
• East Riding of Yorkshire
• South Yorkshire
• Cheshire
• Derbyshire
• Nottinghamshire

Norway

• Trøndelag
• Vestland
• Rogaland
• Møre og Romsdal
• Troms og Finnmark

It seems that it is not unusual for a county article to contain both a main article settlements list and a settlement template that contains overlapping items.

A main article settlements list can be beneficial to the reader in that settlements information is directly displayed. A settlement template at the bottom of the article is also valuable, but probably not the first place a reader would look for settlement information.

185.107.14.2 (talk) 20:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Where do the North/South/Central designations come from? I'm not aware of any such scheme for a division of Fife, official or informal. Many of those noted as "South" would be termed as being in West Fife, informally at least. Auchtermuchty as Central? Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

The geographic designations was an attempt to address ("visualize") where in Fife the settlements are found. It stemmed from the initial list of cities, towns and villages, which in turn was created to categorize the long list of settlements. From other articles that list settlements, it appears that this is not a standard way to categorize settlements, instead many articles uses maps to indicate where settlements are located - good examples from the list above could be used as inspiration for the Fife article. For instance the map in Cumbria#Demography could inspire a similar locator map, and the mini-map list in Cumbria#Settlements could make basis for a corresponding Fife list based on Wards maps. Other examples that could be used for modelling are found in Lancashire#Settlements, Lancashire#Demography and List of settlements in West Yorkshire by population.

I will try to introduce an interactive locator map based on the map in Cumbria#Demography. 185.107.14.2 (talk) 16:00, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Commonly known as the Kingdom of Fife

The lead says and is still commonly known as the Kingdom of Fife within Scotland without a citation. I asked for one and was reverted, against our standard practices, with an edit summary that cites the #History section. There’s no citation that I can see for this assertion there either: the paragraph says common epithet The Kingdom of Fife but again without a citation. The edit summary also cites the existence of Kingdom FM in the area, as if this means anything at all.

Our rules require this type of assertion to be cited. Would someone please do so, especially if requests for such things are, unaccountably, not permitted in the article itself? — Trey Maturin™ 22:45, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Per MOS:LEAD it "it is common for citations to appear in the body, and not the lead", hence my removal of your tag from the lead, as reading the rest of the article, plus a perfunctory Google search indicates the mountain of evidence that the term (still) has currency, as it evidently did in recent history, from the citation in the history section. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11] to indicate a few, may not all strictly speaking be RS's for the specific assertion but common sense would indicate the multiple coinage is not coincidence. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:56, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

References

Emphasis on St Andrews in the lead?

Far be it from me to diminish St Andrews' importance, but almost a third of the lead is given over to it. Are we saying that's more or less the most important thing about Fife, just after its name and population? I'd be happy to diversify that section a little, but don't want to disturb a consensus, if it exists. — Arcaist ^{(contr—talk)} 18:14, 8 May 2023 (UTC)