Talk:Federal Reserve
(Redirected from Talk:Federal Reserve System)
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Kiwipete in topic Term Deposit Facility
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Q1: Is the Federal Reserve private or public/governmental?
A1: The Federal Reserve is not one entity but several, and each has its own status in relation to the government. The Board of Governors, which supervises the system, is a federal government agency. The twelve Federal Reserve Banks are privately owned corporations organized under the Federal Reserve Act that have public responsibilities. They are not organized under the laws that govern other private corporations, such as for-profit businesses. Q2: Who owns the Federal Reserve?
A2: There are multiple answers depending on which part of the Federal Reserve is meant.
Q3: Does the court case Lewis v. United States (1982) prove that the Fed is a private bank?
A3: Lewis v. United States held that a man injured by a Federal Reserve Bank's vehicle could not sue the federal government for damages. The court decided that for the purpose of a tort claim, the Reserve Bank was not a federal agency, because the government did not control its detailed activities and day-to-day operations. The decision noted that in other cases, for other legal purposes, courts have treated Reserve Banks as government-affiliated entities. Q4: Why is the structure of the Federal Reserve so complicated?
A4: The structure reflects the development of the Federal Reserve over time from a regional system into a de facto centralized system. The original Federal Reserve Act provided for banks to cooperate with each other and the government on a regional basis to meet credit demands. This was intended to prevent banks in more commercial parts of the country from dominating others. Each Federal Reserve Bank managed credit within its region, while the Board carried out regulatory and policy functions. (House Report 69 (1913), pp. 17–19). The Banking Act of 1935 increased the authority of the Board and the status of the Reserve Bank of New York, while reducing the role of the other Reserve Banks. Q5: Does the Federal Reserve have a connection with federal income tax?
A5: Yes. The Federal Reserve Act and the first "modern" income tax were both enacted in late 1913 by Woodrow Wilson, who saw them as ways to strengthen the federal government against the large business interests of the time. Although they were enacted around the same time, each proposal had its own separate political history. Additionally, the Federal Reserve processes payments for the federal government. Therefore, any payment to the US Treasury (including income tax) is eventually deposited to the Treasury's account at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and becomes part of the government's operating cash. Q6: Does the Federal Reserve have a connection with the national debt?
A6: Yes. The Federal Reserve Banks are significant owners of federal debt securities, about $5.6 trillion or 18% of the debt as of June 2022. They draw part of their income from these holdings, which they use to pay their expenses and dividends before remitting their earnings to the Treasury. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York also conducts (but does not participate in) auctions of new federal debt securities. Fiscal policy — how the government raises and spends money — is decided by Congress, not by the Federal Reserve. Q7: Did Woodrow Wilson regret creating the Fed?
A7: No. A supposed regretful quote from him ("I am a most unhappy man...") is assembled from words that he said and wrote, but not about creating the Fed. See the Wikiquote page for Wilson. Q8: I have a book/web site/video that contradicts these answers.
A8: Works claiming that the Federal Reserve is the creation of a sinister banker conspiracy have been raised here many times before. There are separate articles about writers and works that make such claims, like G. Edward Griffin and America: Freedom to Fascism. However, they are not mentioned in this article, because they are not widely acknowledged among authors who write about the Fed, even to criticize it. Wikipedia aims to fairly represent the significant points of view on a subject but not to promote fringe theories held by a tiny minority of adherents. Q9: Where can I find more answers about the Federal Reserve?
A9: The Board of Governors has its own frequently asked questions list. |
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Attempt to add Fed ownership to article lead rejected as a "fringe POV"
editI made the following edit below but it was rejected as "fringe POV" by @Ravensfire. The Fed itself names itself as an "independent government agency but still accountable to Congress". Come on folks, this is public domain knowledge that the Fed is literally owned by its member banks. There is no such thing as an "independent government agency" as all government agencies answer to one of the three branches of government.
Similarly, the Fed is not a reserve since the USA went off the gold standard. Again, public domain knowledge.
Rude accusations and capricious rejections of content that is applicable and public domain hurt Wiki, not help it. I'm not going to debate this with someone who rudely accused me of having a fringe POV but I hope some other admin will correct this. Thank you.
The Federal Reserve System is neither federal nor a reserve. It is not part of the federal government because it is privately owned and operated by its member banks for profit.(1)(2) It is not a reserve because it no longer holds reserves in gold since the United States went off the gold standard in 1933.(3)
1. "Who Owns the Federal Reserve Banks | In Plain English | St. Louis Fed". www.stlouisfed.org. Retrieved 2021-09-01. 2. "The Fed - Appendix B. Dividends". Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System. Retrieved 2021-09-01. 3. Editors, History com. "FDR takes United States off gold standard". HISTORY. Retrieved 2021-09-01. Wikiguy91311 (talk) 01:18, 3 September 2021 (UTC)— Wikiguy91311 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- This is fringe SYNTH and erroneous horsepucky. It will never stay in the article. Also, please move this thread to the bottom of the page. SPECIFICO talk 01:24, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- There's a couple of issues with the edit in question. First, there's a lot of original research. Let's look at the first part - the Federal Reserve System being private. There's a source (that's good!), but it's being misrepresented. Right at the start, it explicitly says "So is the Fed private or public? The answer is both." It then goes on to talk about the Federal Reserve Banks as being organized like private corporations. Not the entire system. The Banks. The part about the Banks earning profits is accurate but let's read that source you included where it says that after operating expenses are paid, the member banks for each federal reserve bank (again, note BANK, not system), are paid a fixed 6% dividend and the rest is handed to the US Treasury as a franchise tax. [1] has the balance sheet from FY2018 - Net income/loss is a pittance, exactly how the system is setup.
- The second sentence also has WP:OR issues. Yes, the US left the gold standard which is supported by the source. But the rest of the sentence, about the FRS not being a reserve, is not correct. From the Reserve Bank article - "A reserve bank is a public institution that manages a state's currency, money supply, and interest rates." The FRS does all of that through the public aspects of the system - the Board of Governors and the Open Market Committee mainly. In addition, the Federal Reserve Banks maintain the federal funds which are the reserves from the member banks. Reserves aren't measured by some arbitrary holdings of metal and haven't for quite some time world-wide. It's measured by assets. Assets of what kind? Whatever is deemed appropriate by the central bank for each country. Ravensfire (talk) 01:43, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Ravensfire: Sir, why are you trying to pretend the issue is with whether or not the Fed is "public"? Not one word of the edit used the word "public", nor did the edit raise that topic. The edit simply corrected a very common misconception that the Federal Reserve is "owned" and run by the US Federal Government. It is literally indisputable and actual fact directly from the Fed (as cited) that the Federal Reserve banks are privately "owned" and run by the member banks (those that hold shares in the Federal Reserve), although still accountable to the US Congress. Is this something you still wish to deny? Would it help if we added in that Congressional oversight caveat? As for the issue you raised about the amount of profits the member banks take or whether that's a "pittance" or not, again Sir, the edit has absolutely nothing to do with that. The sentence is literally absolutely correct that the member banks take a profit. You admitted that in your reply, so again, what's the issue? Re your issue about the Fed not being a "Reserve Bank", you did it again. You pretended the issue was with the definition of what a "Reserve Bank" is. It was not. Once again, the edit says absolutely nothing about what a "Reserve Bank" is. The edit says nothing about "a state's currency, money supply, and interest rates", the definition of a Reserve Bank that you injected into your reply. The edit simply said the Fed is not a "reserve". Using the plain English language definition of a "reserve" in the context of banking [1], the Fed hasn't been a "reserve" since 1933, and intentionally so![2]
- It is you sir who seems to be repeatedly injecting all sorts of WP:FRINGE theories into an edit that simply doesn't contain any.[3]. I purposely made the edit right the start of the article (2nd paragraph) to help define what the Fed is. And I made it short and sweet to address the biggest misconception about the Fed in a simple manner that helps educate Wiki readers by giving them the basic facts right up front, and then letting the remainder of the article expand on the edit, which covers all of your concerns (both founded and injected). You may want to read the talk history of this page and see that this is a valid issue that has been raised but never settled.
- @SPECIFICO: Your rude comments violate Wiki TOU[4] and add nothing to the discussion. Considering that you are an admin, I would greatly appreciate if you could follow the very rules that you agreed to enforce! If you persist I will ask for impartial admin attention to your behavior. Thanks! Wikiguy91311 (talk) 05:21, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- The sooner the better, please. SPECIFICO talk 13:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- This is clear WP:OR. Please provide WP:RS that state these claims together. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:41, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- Wikiguy91311, the article already notes in the lead that the system as a whole is a mix of public and private entities. And I'm hoping you read the Bank reserve article you linked, reserves are the deposits held by the central bank, which is the US is the federal reserve. Member banks are required to have a minimum amount under deposit with the FRB they are under. So yes, the federal reserve is, in fact, the reserve bank for the United States. Being on a gold standard (or silver standard) has nothing to do with being a reserve bank in the modern banking world. Ravensfire (talk) 13:39, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- @SPECIFICO: Your rude comments violate Wiki TOU[4] and add nothing to the discussion. Considering that you are an admin, I would greatly appreciate if you could follow the very rules that you agreed to enforce! If you persist I will ask for impartial admin attention to your behavior. Thanks! Wikiguy91311 (talk) 05:21, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Income tax
editNo discussion on the history of the national income tax being paired with fed reserve creation? Also, no discussion on where some of citizens tax money goes, to interest payments on the national debt? 173.172.127.147 (talk) 02:26, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
- You are confusing disparate subjects. You would need to make specific proposals, backed by valid references in order to start a discussion. SPECIFICO talk 02:36, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
- No, because it wasn't, and no, because it's irrelevant. 67.180.143.89 (talk) 00:25, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
CPI
editRecently added to a section* pertaining to the CPI - however this was not deemed relevant. Any opinions that say it may be relevant / noteworthy to include? :)— Preceding unsigned comment added by BlockchainusMaximus (talk • contribs)
- Please see WP:NOTNEWS and WP:WEIGHT. SPECIFICO talk 22:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
FAQ
editI have rewritten the talk page FAQ to address questions / objections raised frequently on this talk page. A link to the Board of Governors' FAQ is included at the end. 67.180.143.89 (talk) 05:39, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Term Deposit Facility
editUser:A. C. Santacruz tagged this section for excessive use of quotations. The section is mostly quotations, one of which spans four paragraphs. I condensed and paraphrased it, and this was reverted by User:Beauty School Dropout who called it "unhelpful" and said that "disputed topics" should be discussed. First, I was acting on someone else's request, which is the definition of "helpful." Second, I don't see a content dispute here. No concern about the neutrality or factual accuracy of the section has been raised. If someone wants to make a case for keeping the section as it was, they can do that here. Otherwise there is no dispute, only obstruction. 67.180.143.89 (talk) 16:30, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- IP, please do not attribute your edits to me. I do agree that the section was over-quoted heavily, but I am not accountable or responsible for how you respond to a clean-up tag that I place. I'll take a look later to see if I agree or not with your edit, and if not I'll propose some alternative phrasing. Let's all try to resolve this constructively without engaging in an edit war. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 20:05, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Kiwipete and Beauty School Dropout, I believe IP's summary is more encyclopedic than the previous version. If there are any things you believe they shouldn't have removed, I suggest we build upon IP's version. Feel free to discuss below. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 20:39, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
It looked like page blanking to me. A. C. Santacruz I'm going to back out of this discussion and let more experienced and knowledgeable Wikipedians such as yourself decide the fate of this one. Beauty School Dropout (talk) 20:42, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Beauty School Dropout, that's fair. Your wikignoming is appreciated :) ! A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 20:50, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm with Beauty School Dropout on this one - I'm not a subject matter expert, just a pending changes reviewer, so I'll leave it to more knowledgeable people to resolve. I'll say this, though, to IP - I'm much more likely to revert anonymous changes than those done by registered users, so you might do yourself a favour and create an account. Cheers, Kiwipete (talk) 08:06, 28 February 2022 (UTC)