Talk:Fatah al-Islam

Al-Qaeda

Are the two groups linked. Sources from Arab media say no sources from American say yes. In my experience Al-Jazeera and Lebanese TV do a better job at this type of conflict than CNN and FOX. NPR says they only share the same ideology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.159.146.17 (talk) 20:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Not sure. The current article says that they "draw inspiration from al-Qaeda," which is slightly vague but neutral. — George Saliba ^[talk] 22:29, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Importance rating

I suggest that the importance rating of this article should be changed from 'Low' to 'Mid' since it seems to fit that category in the WikiProject Lebanon Importance scale. Since the group is now engaged in a 3 day battle with the army and is appearing in international news. Any objections? -Zer0fighta 20:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Fatah and Fatah al-Islam

Since the Fatah and Fatah al-Islam are different organizations, shouldn't this be pointed out in the introductions to avoid confusion? I am not sure how to do this correctly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.164.136.72 (talk • contribs)

I added something at the top of the page. Is that what you had in mind? Or do you think it should be clearer. Tiamut 23:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I changed a bit. It is now in the leading part of the article as the article Fatah can more easily be found than this one. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 20:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Franklin Lamb

Is he really a researcher at AUB? Please provide evidence. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.85.124.138 (talk) 11:29, 2 June 2007‎ (UTC)

German train bombings

Nothing about the attempted train bombings in Germany. (2006 German train bombing) Have to write on that.

• http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/05/29/africa/ME-GEN-Lebanon-Germany-Terror-Investigation.php
• http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274154,00.html

--Rabbeinu 14:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

the "bombs" were soda bottles filled with gasoline. It's ridiculous to claim they "would have killed hundreds of people". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.66.58.120 (talk • contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 21:15, 4 June 2007‎ (UTC)

Very nice, but it's not what the sources say. --Rabbeinu 21:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Acronym?

The statement regarding Fatah being an reverse acronym for "Harakat al-Tahrir al-Watani al-Filastini" needs a source. Furthermore, why is this in this article, and not in the Fatah article? Lastly, how is FTH a reverse acronym for HTWF? Aren't you sort of missing the W... — George ^[talk] 21:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Ahh. So I looked this up, and it's a reverse acronym if you include the short vowels and match them with the longer vowels. However, this belongs in Fatah, not here. I can't find anything to link it as a reverse acronym to Fatah al-Islam. — George ^[talk] 21:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The statement in question:

'Fatah' (Arabic: فتح), literally conquest, is a reverse acronym from the Arabic name 'Harakat al-Tahrir al-Watani al-Filastini' (Arabic: حركة التحرير الوطني الفلسطيني, literally: "Palestinian National Liberation Movement")

I don't quite understand why it needs a citation. for starters it's pretty obvious that it's a palestinian based movement which declares that it's fighting for "filasteen". secondly, there's no reference on the West-Bank based Fatah article eaiter (and no one is deleting this info there), which means that this is common knowledge on how the name is derived when the military goal is "filasteen". i think that maybe a more balanced solution would be to add the {{fact}} tag on it, while leaving it in... should also be added to the West-Bank based Fatah article. Jaakobou 07:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you're getting the "Palestinian based" movement, unless you mean that its leader is Palestinian. I agree that this appears to be the source of the West Bank based Fatah's name, but I haven't found any sources stating that the same reasoning applies to Fatah al-Islam. If you have a source for that, then it could totally fit in this article. Otherwise, it only belongs in the main Fatah article, as simply assuming that this group uses the word "conquest" due to the acronym also is OR. — George ^[talk] 07:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

User:George, you totally ignored all my points. please adress them properly. Jaakobou 09:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• ref1 for "palestinian based group" - al-jazeera: (Fatah al-Islam) is one of the youngest Palestinian armed groups in the country.
• ref2 for "palestinian based group" - (Fatah al-Islam) a Syrian-backed Palestinian group based in Lebanon.

The second of your references doesn't state this (you mis-quoted the source, which is describing Fatah Uprising), but the first is sufficient, with regards to being a Palestinian movement. I would still question the specific wording of "Palestinian based", as many readers may confuse this for "based out of Palestine" (which I did). However, this still doesn't establish the link between Fatah's use of the name "Fatah" as a reverse acronym, and Fatah al-Islam doing the same for the same reason. — George ^[talk] 09:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

now that we've established the "ok, they are Palestinians" issue, we could debate that this group is a "filasteen" liberation movement (a.k.a. "resistance jihad" movement), something both lebanese and palestinians don't have much interest in admitting to... lebanon wants to blame syria and everybody else wants to place blame on allready villified/glorified (depending on affiliation) al-qaeda.

i think you're wrong when you say they are not "coming out of palestine" considering that both the leader and the people have (probably) at some point been residents of ottoman palestine -- which btw, included the tsidon and damascus regions (don't know the ottoman word)... technically, i don't know if nahar al bared is within' the tsidon (or damascus) regions, but regardless, it's beyond obvious that this group is fighting for "filasteen" and stateheood of the Palestinains who are forced refugees (arabs don't want to incorperate them back into their society).

considering also that the 'West-Bank' (politically motivated name) Fatah article has no citation - i suggested the median solution that we add this info with a {{Fact}} tag. Jaakobou 09:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not even going to get into the OR discussion about where they came from, and whether or not it was part of some century-old nation. The Fatah article cites no sources, but I'm readily able to find such sources. Sources are only necessary with information that is "challenged or likely to be challenged". In the case of Fatah al-Islam, however, I'm unable to find such sources. Please review the citing sources guideline, which states, in part, "All material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a source." This statement is disputable, therefore, this material needs a source tying the reverse acronym usage to Fatah al-Islam itself. If you feel that the statement is legitimate, then find sources to support it. I see no reason to include it if it's so difficult to find sources to support it. — George ^[talk] 10:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

would be great if you add a couple sources when you mention it's easy to find them (i might look for a few also). i'd like to add that when the issue is somewhat obvious (even if it might be disputed), the fact tag can sit for at least a week before the "obvious yet disputed" text is deleted... this way, more editors can give this text a search. Jaakobou 10:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't view the claim with regards to the main Fatah article to be in dispute, so I don't see adding sources there as necessary. Here, however, I view the statement as doubtful, and potentially harmful to the article – harmful in that it may cause the reader to believe that it is associated with Fatah, when the two are apparently enemies. From guidelines on citing sources in unsourced material, "If [a statement] is doubtful and harmful, you should remove it from the article; you may want to move it to the talk page and ask for a source... Do not be inappropriately cautious about removing unsourced material; it is better for Wikipedia to say nothing on an issue than to present false or misleading material." — George ^[talk] 10:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

P.S. If you want a reference for the reverse acronym for the main Fatah article, here's a good one. — George ^[talk] 10:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

User:George,

1. nice work on the link. :)
2. ^{(quoting you:)} "the two are apparently enemies" ???
3. anyone who actually does a search finds more than the "truth" inside his heart. seems you're protesting this only because there's no citation just yet and you think something but have no valid reference for it... there's plenty reasons which make the name connection possible.

• figting the jews ("filasteen" anyone?)
• the palestinian mujahadeen "resistance jihad" connection.

putting it shortly, there's really no reason to think Fatah al Islam doesn't mean "Islamic Palestinian Liberation Movement" and that it means "conquest of islam" when the palestinian connection is so obvious. Jaakobou 10:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

(de-indenting)

• With regards to the first video, the article already states that it's main targets are Israel and the United States.
• The second video shows the "Head of the Islamic Palestinian Council in Lebanon". I don't see how this relates to Fatah al-Islam, as he isn't identified as their spokesman, or in any way related to them.

I'm looking for a source stating that Fatah al-Islam is based on a reverse acronym, not proof that Fatah al-Islam supports a Palestinian state. I have no idea why you would imply that one suggests the other. — George ^[talk] 11:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

allow me to repeat myself for effect:

there's really no reason to think Fatah al Islam doesn't mean "Islamic Palestinian Liberation Movement" and certainly there's no reason to think that it does mean "conquest of islam" when the palestinian connection is so obvious. Jaakobou 11:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

1. Wikipedia isn't a place for possibilities and original thought, it's a place to cite reliable sources that are verifiable. Please review "What Wikipedia is not".
2. The English "Conquest of Islam" is based on the fact that this is what the Arabic name "Fatah al-Islam" translates to, word-for-word. It translates to this regardless of whether or not the Palestinian party Fatah's name is also an acronym, and regardless of any Palestinian connection period. — George ^[talk] 11:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

(de-indenting)
SUGGESTED COMPROMIZE:

The 'Fatah' part in the name, literally conquest, has been attributed in the case of another Palestinian organization (Fatah) to be a reverse acronym from the Arabic name 'Harakat al-Tahrir al-Watani al-Filastini' (Arabic: حركة التحرير الوطني الفلسطيني), which means "Palestinian National Liberation Movement".^[1]

hope this works. Jaakobou 08:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is the problem: If you're talking about "another Palestinian organization", then it doesn't belong in this article, it belongs in that article (and it already exists in that article). If you're talking about this organization, then you need a source that draws the connection that you're attempting to establish between Fatah al-Islam and the usage of the word "conquest" as a reverse acronym. — George ^[talk] 08:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Allow me to try to illustrate the problem with an example: Let's say that there's an exercise machine company named FIT, which is an acronym for "Fitness is terrific!". If I was writing an article about that company, I would mention the acronym. Now, let's say one of the employees leaves, and starts his own company named GET FIT. Now, if I was writing an article on his company, I wouldn't mention the "Fitness is terrific!" acronym, unless I had a source linking said acronym to GET FIT. For instance, GET FIT could stand for "Get exercising today, free intial trial!", or it could indeed stand for "Get exercising today, fitness is terrific!", or it could just be a name with no acronym meaning whatsoever (since GET FIT is two readable words, and may not be an acronym at all). The problem is for me to mention that GET FIT is an acronym, I would need something to back that up. For me to state that it shares the same acronym as the company FIT, just because it was started by a former employee and both produced fitness equipment, would be OR without sources. To even mention that the company FIT is an acronym in the GET FIT article (the equivalent of your latest proposal) would imply a correlation that may or may not be true, and wouldn't belong without sources. Hopefully that clears it up a bit... — George ^[talk] 08:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

you're really comapring between fitness machines and two groups adamant of the "liberation of filasteen" through terrorism? i can't take this rehtoric seriously, i've established that both groups have a connection, and that both are "filasteen liberation" groups.. making the name mention/connection is fair and certainly encyclopedic. Jaakobou 18:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That was an example, not rhetoric. I'll try to break it down more simply:

1. The connection between the groups is already outlined in the article. Fatah al-Islam broke off from Fatah Uprising, which broke off from Fatah.
2. I agree that both groups are pro-Palestinian, to varying degrees.
3. What does any of this have to do with whether or not the name Fatah al-Islam is a reverse acronym? — George ^[talk] 19:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

take another look at the suggested compromize, and try working with it. Jaakobou 12:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't see any reliable source which establishes what your suggesting. Until and unless you cna produce a reliable source, then sorry you haven't established anything. End of story... Nil Einne (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Hariri funding

Seems like Bahia al-Hariri admitted to have (at least indirectly) funded Fath al-Islam, and Jund al-Sham for certain. Any sources on this? Funkynusayri 19:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Translation of Fath al-Islam to Conquest of Islam

It seems to me that the "conquest of Islam" isn't a great translation, as reading that it is unclear whether Islam is the one doing the conquesting of the one being conquested, whereas I think the Arabic is clear that Islam is the one that is conquesting, not the one being conquested. Any comments or ideas for a better translation? Or maybe it's not really that important? Alyssay (talk) 15:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "Leopold" :
  • Evelyn Leopold. [http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N21357304.htm> "Syria says militants in Lebanon work for al Qaeda."] AlertNet
  • Evelyn Leopold. [http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N21357304.htm> "Syria says militants in Lebanon work for al Qaeda."]

DumZiBoT (talk) 23:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

U.S. Funding

I think the first sentence needs revising: "Fatah al-Islam [...] is a radical Sunni Islamist group, trained and funded by the U.S government [2] [3] and Saudi Arabia, that first formed in November 2006."

1. The second source ([3]) is redundant, as it is solely based on the first source.

2. While this is definitely worth mentioning, I think it should at least be rephrased or getting a dedicated section. The first line should provide a summary of the most distinctive attributes of the subject.

This description gives a false impression, suggesting that the group is basically funded and trained by those two states. Let me depict the situation, as stated in the sources: According to the cited New Yorker article (whose truthfulness I don't want to contend), the (Lebanese) Siniora government received funds from the U.S. to combat groups such as Hezbollah. Siniora used that money among other things to fund groups hostile towards Hezbollah, such as Fatah al-Islam. Thus, U.S. money went towards this group. The group was made up partially of veterans, trained by the U.S. and Saudi Arabia in the Afghan war against the USSR, but this must have happened no later than in the 80s.

While this is a good example of how uncareful training and financing efforts can backfire, this sentence suggests much more intent than the result of ricocheting and badly planned endeavors. Makrom (talk) 20:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I have now removed it from the introduction and created a new section, explaining the circumstances more detailed. I felt this was necessary in order to avoid a wrong impression and putting it in the right context.Makrom (talk) 04:51, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Role in Syrian insurgency

http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2012/04/23/in-syria-lebanons-most-wanted-sunni-terrorist-blows-himself-up/ FunkMonk (talk) 17:51, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Description

• "Fatah al-Islam" Islamist gets About 673 results
• "Fatah al-Islam" jihadist gets About 418 results.

GregKaye ✍♪ 19:25, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Active status

The article was updated recently (diff) to state that the group "had largely become in active [sic]" as of 2015. While multiple sources report that the group has weakened, I did not find any supporting the claim of inactivity. On the contrary, the group was "still a factor in Lebanon" in 2014 (source) and took part in clashes in the Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp as recently as August 2015 (source). I replaced the unsourced claim with sourced content (diff). -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 23:32, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

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