Talk:Famicom Detective Club

Tose

DrSanic Regarding Tose, they are a well known shadow developer, meaning they do work on contract and don't carry much in creative direction of the projects they work on. They might get mentioned in the credits, but are not normally considered "co-developers" and should be omitted from the infobox. If you can find a source stating that they worked on one or both of the original games, it could be mentioned in prose, but not the infobox. According to the Virtual Console page, they share copyright with Nintendo over the Wii Virtual Console release of the first game [1], but not the second game [2] or its remake [3]. I don't know if that means they worked on the original or only the VC version. We need better sources. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 15:55, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Image

Do we really want to use the remake artwork for the infobox? I know that normally VG articles tend to use English cover art, but this is a classic from 33 years ago - it feels odd to then be using 2021 art, especially as the infobox artwork is meant to serve as visual recognition of the article subject. We can still "represent" the remake visually by adding its logo, as it "consists only of simple geometric shapes or text".--Alexandra^IDV 16:39, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

So I understand what you are saying. I picked that artwork because I felt it was the best compromise, but I agree with your thoughts and I'm not totally convinced it's the best choice. My reasoning with picking that artwork was:

• The original artwork is virtually unknown and unrecognized outside Japan.
• The original games actually have four covers. Two games, released on two discs each, so four total separate cover arts.
• MOS:LEADIMAGE suggests that while image should be "representative", they should also "give readers visual confirmation that they've arrived at the right page" and "what our readers will expect to see".
• Once the games are released on the Switch, those versions will be primarily what is known among our readers, not the FDS logo/art.
• The logo actually differs between the Switch games, and this was the only official combined logo I could find.
• Finding a PD version of the Switch logo (without the design) may be difficult. A PD version of the FDS logo (all japanese text) isn't really helpful to our readers.

Maybe putting both Switch logos (as seen here), the second below the other, instead of trying to find a combined version would be better. Open to suggestions. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 16:58, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

I think the main problem is that the two games are on a single page. This isn't like The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Season and The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages which were made at the same time, and must both be played to reach the ending. Or Pokemon Red Version and Pokemon Blue Version which are the same game with slight alterations to make them different enough to require trading with a friend. This is one game that was made and sold in 1988, and another that was made and sold in 1989. But that aside, I think the combined English logo is prefered. That's what would be on the cover art of the box...if the physical release wasn't Japan-only. Maybe it would be better to zoom in on the logo so the conflicting artwork won't be seen. Then you're left with only a logo (and some moon, buildings, and sky). I made one (counted the pixles to make sure it was perfectly centered), and it looks alright. It would do till Nintendo or America or Europe puts out the clean logo somewhere. Linkdude20002001 (talk) 04:29, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

We can't use custom crops like that unfortunately, but hopefully we can get an official crop like that soon. That or we show both covers or logos like Link: The Faces of Evil and Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 13:32, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

If we can show multiple covers, I'd suggest showing all four of the original FCD covers then. Tho, I suppose it would make the most sense for it to be a logo, like all the other main Nintendo pages. I guess I vote to leave it as is...for now. There will be a clean version of the logo eventually. I'll even ask NoA and NoE for it. Maybe they'll post it. Advertizing these games is cruicial to their success. Linkdude20002001 (talk) 18:33, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Actually, for the mean time, maybe this (https://cdn02.nintendo-europe.com/media/images/11_square_images/games_18/nintendo_switch_download_software/SQ_NSwitchDS_FamicomDetectiveClub_Combo.jpg) would be a better depiction of the logo. I think it the logo would be slightly larger for the reader to see. Linkdude20002001 (talk) 19:10, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

@Alexandra IDV: @Linkdude20002001: I have changed out the image to show all four FCD covers. Curious what your thoughts are. Linkdude, sorry I changed out the image before seeing your suggestion, but I think yours is better than the first one, at least. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 19:44, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Happy with the image, although it would be good if you could fill in the sites you got them from in the file's Source parameter instead of vaguely referring to "various internet sources".--Alexandra^IDV 22:33, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Done. Random Japanese blogs. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 22:52, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Oh, that looks nice. Good work! It really shows what the page is about. It's a shame that one day it'll be replaced with just the series logo, but it's like that for all the other Nintendo franchises, so I guess it's only fair. Linkdude20002001 (talk) 22:25, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Oof, I don't like the montage of the four covers. Too busy, too shrunk down. I would just use the first of the historical covers. (Or the modern image. I liked how the modern one was in English and how it elegantly covered both games. But I understand Wikipedia has a general preference for using the original artwork for media.) WanderingWanda (talk) 19:02, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

IDK, I've come around to feeling that the current four cover montage is the best we can do at this time. I understand it's busy, but no Disk System cover is more iconic or recognizable than the other, and Part II is arguably the more well known entry. The Switch cover, while nice for a number of reasons, is inferior to the Disk System art collage in that the latter reflects the art design of the original, its episodic nature, and their age. The look of the remake is quite different. Since most of the article is talking about the originals, it is not representative of the topic to use the remake artwork. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 03:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

TarkusAB, Alexandra IDV, Linkdude20002001: Well, let me point to precedent: I can't think of any other series article that uses a montage in this way, including articles about other episodic videogames. The Walking Dead (video game series), Strong Bad's Cool Game for Attractive People, Half-Life (series), Star Fox, Cooking Mama, Naruto, The Boxcar Children, The Chronicles of Narnia, Canon of Sherlock Holmes, etc, etc. I think it's a poor choice for the same reason that, say, using a 5pt font in an article would be: the images are shrunk down to the point of almost uselessness. WanderingWanda (talk) 19:27, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

WanderingWanda, all the video game series examples you gave use the logo, which is, last I checked, not possible for this one due to some stupid "no cropping" rule. And I don't know what you mean by "episodic", since none of the examples you gave are like this situation with a Volume 1 and Volume 2 of the same game. I could see how maybe ommiting the second game would make sense, but you'd still have two cover arts... Really we just need to try to get the logo from NoA or NoE, like we have for all the other serieses.Linkdude20002001 (talk) 22:57, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

2024 discussion

Realized that waiting out for the combined logo of the two games was unnecessary as that wouldn't even be what Nintendo would use as a series logo if, say, a character from the series ended up added to Smash Bros., or any other places Nintendo puts their non-specific-game logos. So I added the basic logo that's only text (no game-specific markings or subtitles). Finally Famicom Detective Club's Wikipedia article can be like every other Nintendo series Wikipedia article, which all use their series basic logo.Linkdude20002001 (talk) 18:41, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

This isn't a series page. It's one shared game experience, released in separate volumes. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 19:32, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Linkdude20002001's reasoning of using a logo for the duology kinda reminds me of what occurred with the Tekken articles, where the arcade flyers were replaced with the PlayStation cover despite earlier entries originating as arcade titles. There are currently only three games under the FDC banner, and nobody knows if we'll see a fourth FDC title. Roberth Martinez (talk) 20:13, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

But TarkusAB, this IS a series page. Otherwise the two games would be on separate pages, as they're two different games. And as such, we had been trying to get a logo instead of box art, but couldn't find a way, so we went with the box art as a temporary fix.

Roberth, that's completely different. I'm not suggesting the use of the remake collection's art like TarkusAB had originally changed it to. I just think it should be the English logo. It's the only official English logo, and doesn't specify any particular version. It just means "Famicom Detective Club" and nothing more, and that's all we could as for for a Wikipedia article. Linkdude20002001 (talk) 20:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. The article uses a game infobox, and is structured like a game article. As such, I think the original release box art is most appropriate. I recognize I have a bias as I wrote and structured most of the article, so I will ask WP:VG for some other opinions. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 21:53, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with Linkdude's assessment. This is not a series page. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 22:06, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Look Linkdude20002001, we're not fighting with you. All we are saying is that it is not currently possible to use the English logos as this article is all that there is for Famicom Detective Club, aside from the Satellaview entry (which i don't think we'll see that one becoming a stand-alone article unless enough sources are found to establish its notability). Roberth Martinez (talk) 00:43, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Ideally, this will all be moot once I do research and find enough sources to cover the originals and the remakes separately. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Given how The Portopia Serial Murder Case still uses the original Japanese cover art but not the English banner on Steam, I oppose changing the current image to the English logo. MilkyDefer 15:16, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Composer of Vol. 1

The composer is given as either a pseudonym or a mononym, and the actual, full name is not known. I asked on Manual of Style/Film for what to do in such a situation, and was told that the name, pseudonym/mononym or not, should be credited. Linkdude20002001 (talk) 11:51, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Why did you ask MOS/Film and not MOS/VG? Lots of early Japanese games used pseudonyms and I've never seen them in infoboxes. It's not helpful to the reader to list a pseudonym, and could mislead the reader that it is their actual name. The composer is not known. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 12:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

But just listing Kenji Yamamoto will mislead the reader...into thinking that he composesd for both games; they aren't going to click on the little "b". And I asked on the one for films, since it's "more important", being that far more people watch movies than play video games (ie. more mainstream). So if that's what the bigger, more mainstream media does, it makes sense to do that for the smaller media categories.Linkdude20002001 (talk) 22:51, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I have edited the article to try and find a compromise, but...video games and films are different in many aspects, which is why we have two separate communities with their own guidelines. It just doesn't make sense to ask FILM when we have a VG project to ask first. The majority of Japanese video games in the 1980s and early 1990s listed pseudonyms due to company policies. This contrasts to film credits which have largely not been pseudonymous through history, so the FILM project may have a unique approach. Also, the video game industry is larger and more mainstream than film on several metrics, but that's neither here nor there. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 02:28, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Do we add Emio-the Smiling Man here

or do we make new pages for that game and the whole series? Serouj2000 (talk) 13:19, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

My thoughts is we create a new page for Emio and for the series as a whole and just have this page for the first 2 games. If they make more after Emio, id feel it would be best to have each game with its own page like the other Nintendo franchises on Wikipedia 192.223.136.5 (talk) 15:23, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Separate page for Emio. This page is about the first two games. I don't think a separate page about the series as a whole is warranted at this point. There isn't much to say about it hollistically. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 19:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

then I think we need to specify that it is the first two games in the title. thoughts? Serouj2000 (talk) 11:52, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

It says so in the first sentence. And there is no series page so any type of title disambiguation is against guidelines. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 15:08, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

But now the Emio page links to this page for its "Series" part of its info box, despite this page only referring to the originals Serouj2000 (talk) 15:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I mean, I've seen plenty of that here over the years. That type of link is generally acceptable when there is no series page. You can create a series page if you think it's warranted. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 17:39, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I've seen the series not linkjng to any page too, but that's a point about the Emio page, not this one.

(I was gonna suggest splitting off the games and have this name reserved for the series page, but that would have been a MASSIVE undertaking, so nah) Serouj2000 (talk) 19:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

With the Satellaview game AND all the ports, I don't think the "Legacy" section is sufficient to cover it. Personally, I think we should convert this article into a series article and split out the duology later, either as such or as individual games, depending on what the sales of Emio warrant. After all, it already covers two games that didn't launch together in the first place. WikidSmaht (talk) 23:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Visual Novel

Why isn't the genre of these games categorised as visual novels? Jamie64326 (talk) 23:33, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe some sources call them VNs, but others call them adventure games. They have a significant amount of non-linearity to them, and investigative gameplay that is more akin to ADVs than VNs. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 00:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Similar to Ace Attorney then which gets put under both visual novel and adventure. So maybe it'll be right to put these games under both genres. Jamie64326 (talk) 15:06, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not opposed, but it's important to understand that visual novels, as a genre, were not yet legitamized when these games came out. They were considered adventure games, and I'm not sure that context would be lost by calling these games VNs straight up. Might be OK to put in infobox like The Portopia Serial Murder Case. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 17:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd say we should do that for now until decided further. Jamie64326 (talk) 20:27, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I've just noticed that the visual novel genre was edited back out, making them solely listed as adventures titles. Do we edit back in the visual novel genre? Jamie64326 (talk) 20:10, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The right thing to do would be to find a source that supports it before adding back. I checked a few Switch reviews and they all call it an ADV. In fact, GameSpot specifically says: "While Famicom Detective Club's updated presentation has a lot in common with modern-day visual novels, the gameplay is reminiscent of old school LucasArts adventures like The Secret of Monkey Island or Day of the Tentacle." TarkusAB^talk/contrib 20:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I've seen some sites call it a visual novel such as Polygon, but this is regarding the Switch remakes. On top of that, visual novel fan sites such as vndb.org have it listed, but then that's just a fan site. Jamie64326 (talk) 20:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Please provide links to actual sources. Anecdotes like "I've seen a source..." don't help. Sergecross73 msg me 00:51, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't want to post the sources as I didn't know they'd be considered as reliable sources. I'm happy to if they can be considered reliable. Jamie64326 (talk) 20:20, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm against classifying the Famicom Detective Club games as visual novels. One important thing to note is that the classification of visual novels differs between Japan and internationally. In the case for Famicom Detective Club, Japanese sources such as here reporting on the 3DS Virtual Console reissue of The Missing Heir have cited it as an adventure game with no mention of it being a visual novel. The Famicom Detective Club games fit better under adventure games as they share more in common with other similar adventure games such as Shadowgate instead of visual novel games like Play Novel: Silent Hill. Bro3256 (talk) 02:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Adventure games and visual novels are not mutually exclusive. The Adventure game page even lists visual novels as a sub-genre.ThanatosApprentice (talk) 06:23, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I feel this page should be split into a franchise page and pages Dedicated for FDC 1 and 2

From looking at this page it seems to be acting as both which is awkward now we have a 3rd game in the series and there is a release timeline for all those games despite usually series timelines only appear on franchise articles for instance. Gemini.skywalker (talk) 00:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)