Talk:Dixie Mission

Future Updates and Additions

At the moment, I would like to expand more on the mission, such as more detail on Barrett's and Service's initial activities. As well as Dixie's situation after the failure of the Hurley Mission. Pictures? Sure! Unfortunately, all my resources are packed up due to relocating (hopefully unpacked in less than a month). I will also look to see if I can incorporate (or at least create other articles) where I might be able to use scans of government files that I do have in my possession. RebelAt 15:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Communist Deception

I noticed that an attempt was made to address the question of Communist deception of their real intention and behavior and how much the Americans failed for it. The paragraph was deleted for violating NPOV. I thus created the topic "The question of Communist subterfuge". I hope I have created a suitable spot and tone of voice to address the topic which is worth looking at. If not, lets discuss how best to go about it here. If so, please edit, add on, or what have you, to what I just contributed. ~ The Rebel At ~ 18:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I read somewhere that presents a different picture. It says that the CCP were really socialist reformers, aimed to reeducate the bourgeois class and establish a "people's democratic dictatorship." That's why the CCP carried out various anti-rightist movements and mass collectivization programs to destroy any reactionary vestiges, so I'm not sure what does the sentence The history of the Chinese Communists offers evidence that they did not follow the path of socialist reformer mean. The CCP also never allowed it to be affected by American influences, therefore there was little chance that the United States could have reined in the CCP and prevent soviet alignment. Remember, the CCP was virulently anti-american since the beginning. Incidents including the alleged american marines rape case in Beijing to the charge that the KMT were the lapdogs of the United States. BlueShirts 00:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

What I had in mind was that the Communists pursued a policy that was based on Marxism versus the Socialist politics in Europe (Or the U.S. for that matter). I was also trying to remain NPOV, but I think I leaned to far to vagueness on that one. I'll see what I can to clarify that sentence to better communicate that the Communists were a lot more radical than people like John Service believed. Also in need of reference is the foreign correspondent trip to Yenan that preceded the mission by a few months. It played a role in encouraging the "Agrarian Reformers" view that became controversial. I'll also take a quote from Service's report, hopefully not too unwieldy, to serve as an example. Thanks for the feedback! ~ The Rebel At ~ 12:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh okay thanks for clarifying. Maybe we can make it clearer by substituting that with the perception of "agrarian reformer" who only wanted to share power within the framwork of the nationalist government. I'm not sure if they directly influenced american policy, but I think we can mention the reports from people like Edgar Snow and Agnes Smedly definitely helped to foster this perception. BlueShirts 21:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Snow and Smedley certainly affected civilian impressions of the Communists, in the same manner as the foreign correspondents (Both Snow and Smedley had visited Yenan prior to this official visit). I actually have tracked down a New York Times article from May of '44 which explicitly states "agrarian reformers," but was unsure if it would be suitable for reference or not. I think a sentence to reference Snow and Smedley would be acceptable as to impart an atmosphere. I know John Davies met Snow and Smedley both in Hankow only a few years earlier, and I'd believe anyone knowledgable about China in China at that time would have been familiar with the two authors' works. The one thing to avoid is getting too indepth on Communist misrepresentation, as thats probably something that deserves its own article. ~ The Rebel At ~ 12:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I went and created an article stub for a fuller examination of the topic here Wartime Representation of the Chinese Communist Agenda. Please reference the discussion page.~ The Rebel At ~ 13:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC) (Had time to move the page to a better phrased title, located now at Wartime Perception of the Chinese Communist Agenda.~ The Rebel At ~ 16:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC))

Blue Shirt, you say, Remember, the CCP was virulently anti-american since the beginning. I find no evidence of anti-Americanism from 1921-1949. DOR (HK) (talk) 05:32, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Material from Article

Below is a link to the material I took from the article, which I saved to a userpage. I think it can successfully be used in the article Wartime perception of the Chinese Communists, but it will require more than just a cut and paste, hence my saving it here,Saved Material, until an introduction can be written.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 14:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

GA Nom on hold

Enjoyed this, well done! Just some things that need to be worked on to make it GA

1. It is well written. In this respect:
   1. it has compelling prose, and is readily comprehensible to non-specialist readers; failed

• "Chiang was less than forthcoming and the matter was batted back and forth between Chungking and Washington" Needs a little more clarification for the reader who has no prior knowledge of this subject (like me!) - you have Chungking highlighted, but unfortunately the lead of that article doesn't let me know what the context is for this article. I thought I might have seen something like "former base for Chiang" or something. Since it doesn't, this kind of thing should be inserted in this article, as that's what I'm guessing it is since you use it like "Washington".
  • Ah, I see under "The Marshall and Wedemeyer Missions" it gives an explanation, so doing the same above and erasing it here will do the trick
• "Like the Hurley Mission, Marshall failed to find a common ground for both parties and the Chinese Civil War resumed." um, resumed? For a complete ignorant like me, you should probably mention somewhere above that one had started and stopped at some point?
• "best interest to continue supporting the Kuomintang" which is fine, but up until now the article had been using Nationalist party to identify this group. A novice would probably be thrown by this new term
• this sentence needs to be worded better: "As the ambassador, who retained his rank of general despite his civilian post, halted a promotion for Barrett to brigadier general endorsed by the theater commander, General Albert C. Wedemeyer, and accused the colonel of sabotaging his diplomacy between the KMT and CCP"
• Noteable members
  • This seems weird: "first State Department representative to arrive in Dixie" since Dixie wasn't really a place but a mission, right?
  • "behind enemy lines" what enemy lines? Was the territory of the Communist party considered enemy territory then?

1. 1. it follows a logical structure, introducing the topic and then grouping together its coverage of related aspects; where appropriate, it contains a succinct lead section summarising the topic, and the remaining text is organised into a system of hierarchical sections (particularly for longer articles); passed
   2. it follows the Wikipedia Manual of Style including the list guideline;
   3. necessary technical terms or jargon are briefly explained in the article itself, or an active link is provided. failed

• the section "At work in Yan'an" needs some wiki links (Bolshevik, Axis, etc) and also if Agrarian Reformer is a term you can link to, it should be, otherwise it should probably not be capitalized. Found other places where wikilinks would be good and added them but someone should probably do a once-over for this

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect:
   1. it provides references to any and all sources used for its material;
   2. the citation of its sources is essential, and the use of inline citations is desirable, although not mandatory;
   3. sources should be selected in accordance with the guidelines for reliable sources;
   4. it contains no elements of original research. failed

• This statement should have an inline citation: "Even before Service's trip to Yan'an, he had developed a strong bias against Chiang Kai-shek, and this bias only strengthened in the Communist atmosphere" so it can't be interpreted as your opinion.
  • This one too: "The Communists also impressed the Americans in an effective propaganda move against the Nationalists. They created a reputation for engaging and attacking the Japanese regularly, most often in guerilla raids, that dutifully impressed the Americans, used to Nationalist reluctance to fully engage the Axis power. In reality, the last significant military campaign by the Communists against the Japanese had occurred four years earlier in the Hundred Regiments Campaign by the Communist 8th Route Army. Ultimately a disaster, the Communists had held back on any further large campaigns against the Japanese, but still successfully sold the image of themselves as active fighters."
  • "Hurley failed miserably and, at the same time, helped to destroy the future of several of the Dixie Mission members."
  • The whole section: "The question of Communist subterfuge" contains a lot of opinion which needs to be backed up by inline citations

1. It is broad in its coverage. passed
2. It follows the neutral point of view policy. passed
3. It is stable passed
4. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic. passed, though does JPDmemo.jpg need permission for the scan to have been made?

plange 23:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks ever so much for the review, having a list like the above to work off will hopefully make for some quick work. I'll address each issue as I (or someone else) corrects them. Thanks again! ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 00:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

GA Corrections

• 1. it has compelling prose, and is readily comprehensible to non-specialist readers; failed
  • Made all changes that fell under this failure heading.
• # it contains no elements of original research. failed
  • Hopefully made the changes required and added sufficient citations to meet this. The Communist deception section should be entirely enforced by citations.
• It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic. pass though does JPDmemo.jpg need permission for the scan to have been made?
  • If you look closely at the image's upper left hand corner, you'll see a "Declassification" tag. As long as this tag is present, it represents permission for the researcher to make a scan or photograph of the document.

Please let me know what else needs looking at, thanks!~ (The Rebel At) ~ 14:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

GA Passed

As best I can tell, you have met all the concerns above and you meet my expectations of a GA article. Congratulations! I've promoted the article.

You all have done a nice job documenting the information here.

For what its worth, I suggest that you do a little rewriting. English readers find it harder to read texts that use indirect forms of speech, such as passives, participle constructions ("ing" words) and longer sentences. It's not that such passages cannot be read, but they feel "fuzzy", complicated and slow down the reader. For example, this passive: "This task was spearheaded by John S. Service" is easier to read in active form: "John S. Service spearheaded this task" or "commanded this mission." Also, participle constructions such as: "The Americans set immediately to their tasks of discovering as much as they might about the Communists" are easier to read if reworded: "Immediately, the Americans tried to discover as much as they could about the Communists."--CTSWyneken^(talk) 11:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

First, thank you for passing the article! Second, unless someone beats me to it, I'll edit the article using your suggestions. Thanks again!~ (The Rebel At) ~ 12:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

www.dixiemission.org

My grandfather was a "Dixie Mission" veteran and has one of most complete photo collections of the "Dixie Mission". There also is a partial de-classified list of the men who were assigned to this mission. All photo's are copyright of John "Jack" P. Klein who used his personal camera & film while in Yan'an, China. I have built a website of his experience and photo's which can be found at www.dixiemission.org cracyk 17:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Fantastic pictures! I'll go ahead and put the site address on the main article page in the external link section.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 23:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposed (John C. Colling)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The result was not to merge at this time.

---

I propose to merge the content of John C. Colling into here, since that article contains only very little biographical information. (The correct name seems to be John G. Colling, despite the article's title.) If Collings's participation in the Dixie mission is the only relevant fact to tell about him, it might be best to merge the articles, or to redirect "John G. Colling" to here.

Please add your comments below. Proposed as part of the Notability wikiproject. --B. Wolterding 12:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It was at the suggestion that I create stubs for the members of the Mission, when I was aiming for an FA for the article. At the time, someone suggested creating an article dedicated to the different members of the team, such as a list and what not. This would keep the main article on the Dixie Mission clear of a bunch of short biographies, and keep all such biographies into a fuller, larger, article. So rather than merge Colling into this article, I'd suggest creating a new article with all the assorted members together (and in turn, reduce them down, if they're simply stubs). As for the John "G." part, I'm not quite sure if thats accurate. Someone came in and changed it, though in my sources, I think it was a C., as the title suggests. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 22:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It's certainly a good idea to keep the biographical information out of the Dixie Mission article; my point was that John C. Colling contains hardly any biographical information (not enough for a biographical article). But your idea about a separate article on "Dixie Mission members" or similar is a good solution, I think. --B. Wolterding 21:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not agree that John G. Colling should be merged into the Dixie Mission section. His name is not correct the C should be G. His middle name was Gabriel. John Colling was my father and had a very important roll to play in the mission. There is quite an extensive amount of biographical information on my father. I have contact individuals that have worked with him to submit information. The biographical information on my father is not limited to The Dixie Mission alone. He was a very important player in the garment industry in Hong Kong and China from the early 50’s through the mid 90’s. He has written one book on the Dixie Mission, The Spirit of Yenan, which was published in Hong Kong and then later translated into Chinese and published in China. My father finished a second book that my nephew, his grandson DJ Dart, worked with him on and will hopefully be published in the not to distant future.Wcolling

Hi there, Wcolling, glad to see your input. As per the misspelling of your father's middle initial, it would appear that it has occurred because documents associated with the mission referred to him as having a "C." I'm familiar with Spirit of Yenan, and look forward to the next project out.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 04:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• It seems that we do not have a consensus to merge at this time, so we should refrain form doing so. I will add a note to the talk page of the John C. Colling article and also rename it. --B. Wolterding 08:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Agrarian Reformers?

I took out the language saying that Service "many times" called the Communists "agrarian reformers." I have the Foreign Relations of the United States 1944 VI China (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1967), which has his reports, and I don't see the phrase, which is neither in the index to Esherick's edited volume, Lost Chance in China.

In addition, I will add to the references: Kenneth E. Shewmaker, Americans and Chinese Communists, 1927-1945: A Persuading Encounter (Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1971), which is a standard academic study based on reading virtually all of the wartime accounts. Ch. 16 "Are They Really Communists?" discusses the "agrarian reformer myth," and states that "much nonsense has been written about it. The conclusion is that the phrase was used at various times, but that Snow and Smedley's overall message is that the CCP were in fact Communists, and to take the use of the phrase out of context is to distort their views. ch (talk) 19:35, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The FRUS China editions during the war are wonderful books. If I ever get the chance, I'll look up the added sources. I don't know if "agrarian reformer" would fall into the index or not. Its been a couple years now since I thoroughly examined the reports and what not. Regardless, the absence doesn't do really affect the spirit of the content. If there was a place for it on Wikipedia, I'd upload more of the reports that I scanned in during research on the mission. Thanks for taking a close eye to the mission.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 01:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Good. I think the phrase got overemphasized in the heat of the argument at the time and is not all that significant in itself. So thanks for indulging my nit picking! But we should return to make sure that the bigger argument over the nature of the Chinese revolution does get spelled out in sufficient, though not exhaustive, detail. ch (talk) 05:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I further tweaked the language in the lead paragraphs as the original intention was not to make an alliance or break with the KMT. Theoretically (!) there was a United Front, and even Jiang, when he gave in, went along. ch (talk) 21:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Dixie Mission/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

Start GA reassessment. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:15, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Checking against GA criteria

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose):

   • Reasonably well, written, I did have to make copy edits to remove errors of grammar. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

   b (MoS):

   • sufficiently compliant. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references):

   • There are a number of unreferenced statements:
   • Prior to the Dixie Mission, the U.S considered military interventions into CPC held China, such as an unimplemented idea by the Office of Strategic Services to send agents into north China. The Dixie Mission began with John Paton Davies, Jr.'s memo of January 15, 1944. Davies, a Foreign Service Officer serving in the China Burma India Theater (CBI), called for the establishment of an observers' mission in Chinese Communist territory.  Done
   • The first members of the Dixie Mission arrived in Yan'an on July 22, 1944, on an Army C-47. This team consisted of: Colonel David D. Barrett, John S. Service, Major Melvin A. Casberg, Major Ray Cromley, Captain John G. Colling, Captain Charles G. Stelle, Captain Paul C. Domke, 1st Lieutenant Henry S. Whittlesey, and Staff Sergeant Anton H. Remeneh. This may be in the reference for the next paragraph.  Done
   • Dixie Mission participants such as John Service were criticized for viewing the CPC leadership as socialist agrarian reformers, who claimed that China under their rule would not follow the violent path of Russia under the Bolsheviks. Instead, socialism would come to China only after economic reforms that preserved capitalism, so as to mature the society to a point where it would be prepared for a peaceful transition to a communist society. This belief was disseminated to the American people prior to and during the war by the popular authors Edgar Snow and Agnes Smedley.
   • The Dixie Mission had consequences for individuals, and for the nation. Many participants were accused of being communists, such as John Davies and John Service. Both were subjected to multiple Congressional investigations that consistently found that they were not Communist Party members, agents of foreign powers, or disloyal to the United States.
   • Misperceptions of the Dixie Mission contributed to the nationwide Red Scare in the 1950s and 1960s. Thawing relations between the Peoples Republic of China and the United States in the 1970s opened a new chapter for the mission. For the first time, the mission and its participants became the subject of serious scholarship, and many of the mision participants were among the first Americans invited to visit China in twenty years. OK, I put a dupe cite earlier in paragraph for clarity.
   • These points need addressing. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC)  Done

   b (citations to reliable sources):

   c (OR):

3. It is broad in its scope.

   a (major aspects):

   b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):

   • tagged with rationales and licenses

   b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   • suitably captioned.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   • Just some unrefrenced statements to be fixed. On hold. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

   OK alright now, thanks for your hard work. Keep GA status - pity the McCarthyites sabotaged a useful foriegn policy initiative. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Gracias.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 13:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Needed Citation Areas

1. There are a number of unreferenced statements:
2. Prior to the Dixie Mission, the U.S considered military interventions into CPC held China, such as an unimplemented idea by the Office of Strategic Services to send agents into north China. The Dixie Mission began with John Paton Davies, Jr.'s memo of January 15, 1944. Davies, a Foreign Service Officer serving in the China Burma India Theater (CBI), called for the establishment of an observers' mission in Chinese Communist territory.

The memo is cited after the next sentence, as the two are related.

Yes, but Prior to the Dixie Mission, the U.S considered military interventions into CPC held China, such as an unimplemented idea by the Office of Strategic Services to send agents into north China. isn't cited. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:35, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

1. The first members of the Dixie Mission arrived in Yan'an on July 22, 1944, on an Army C-47. This team consisted of: Colonel David D. Barrett, John S. Service, Major Melvin A. Casberg, Major Ray Cromley, Captain John G. Colling, Captain Charles G. Stelle, Captain Paul C. Domke, 1st Lieutenant Henry S. Whittlesey, and Staff Sergeant Anton H. Remeneh. This may be in the reference for the next paragraph.

You're on the money. It is referenced in the next paragraph.  Done

1. Dixie Mission participants such as John Service were criticized for viewing the CPC leadership as socialist agrarian reformers, who claimed that China under their rule would not follow the violent path of Russia under the Bolsheviks. Instead, socialism would come to China only after economic reforms that preserved capitalism, so as to mature the society to a point where it would be prepared for a peaceful transition to a communist society. This belief was disseminated to the American people prior to and during the war by the popular authors Edgar Snow and Agnes Smedley.

The first part of this was cited earlier in the article (wonderfully, someone decided to delete the files I'd uploaded without giving any warning - but the cite is still good). If you're looking for something about Smedley and Snow, that shouldn't be too hard to drum up.

 Done

1. The Dixie Mission had consequences for individuals, and for the nation. Many participants were accused of being communists, such as John Davies and John Service. Both were subjected to multiple Congressional investigations that consistently found that they were not Communist Party members, agents of foreign powers, or disloyal to the United States.

Added cite for Davies and Service. Same Service cite should be applicable to the next.  Done

1. Misperceptions of the Dixie Mission contributed to the nationwide Red Scare in the 1950s and 1960s. Thawing relations between the Peoples Republic of China and the United States in the 1970s opened a new chapter for the mission. For the first time, the mission and its participants became the subject of serious scholarship, and many of the mission participants were among the first Americans invited to visit China in twenty years.

Added obit to this, but let me know if it doesn't work completely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RebelAt (talk • contribs) 01:28, 6 July 2009  Done

OK I have duplicated the cites where it semmed to be neccessary.

File:Marshallmao.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Marshallmao.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 3 December 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 11:53, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Dixie Mission. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20070928011026/http://www.dixiemission.org/ to http://www.dixiemission.org

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 17:47, 29 February 2016 (UTC)