Talk:Diesel fuel

seems to focused on car use

I know for a fact that diesel engines are used on ships and for electricity generation — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fdsdh1 (talk • contribs) 19:31, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Add from Portal:Current events/2012 June 12?

• The World Health Organization (WHO) concludes that diesel exhaust causes cancer. ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18415532 )

108.195.138.38 (talk) 05:03, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Fuel economy/greenhouse gases: no difference anymore between Diesel and Otto

Modern gasoline (Otto) engines are as efficient as Diesel engines. According to volkswagen.de, the current VW Golf with a 118 kW TSI (gasoline/Otto) engine gets 139 g/km CO₂ compared to 138 g/km CO₂ for the 103 kW TDI (Diesel) engine, both with DSG.

The according section of this article urgently needs an update, since it cites outdated sources from 2006–2008. --178.2.188.106 (talk) 21:30, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Guess it depends on your definition of efficiency. The energy per unit volume of diesel is still considerably higher than that of gasoline.1812ahill (talk) 11:56, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Price

Perhaps an average price of petrodiesel can be given ? In Europe price is about 1,4 euro and in USA about 0,6 euro/liter. The price of vegetable oil for example is about 0,6 euro in both territories. Link to vegetable oil economy.

BTW: reading the intro, this article deals around every fuel that can be used in Diesel engines. Thus, the name should be Diesel engine fuel. "Diesel fuel" however refers to petrodiesel. 91.182.37.177 (talk) 07:10, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Types

This article doesn't mention the distinction between the two types of diesel that are used in the U.S. (at least), #1 and #2. The Emory citation that's already being used here discusses it. 70.228.68.126 (talk) 10:38, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Distillate

"In Australia Diesel fuel is often known as 'distillate'." I've lived in Australia my entire life and have never heard it called this. Is there anyone here from another part of Australia who does? Otherwise it should be removed.Lenny (talk) 10:44, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Protection

Should this article be protected? It has been protected since 2011, but I could not find any explanation. Could someone please unprotect the page, or locate the reason for the protection and post it here on the talk page? 192.249.47.209 (talk) 21:08, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Added well regarded Harvey reference

I added the well regarded Harvey academic text from the UK as a reference in "Further reading," as it is, from my reading, almost certainly a text on which the original contributing editors drew (without acknowledgment). 71.239.87.100 (talk) 11:58, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

==='Well regarded'?!? Is this you 'Harvey', doing a little self-promotion? If Harvey is 'well regarded', that should be reconsidered. In reference 31, Harvey claims over 100% fuel efficiency is available for cogeneration power plants. Also, his quote in this article is incorrect. Diesels do not admit a set amount of air per unit fuel. Harvey and his quotes should be removed from this article. Does anyone know how to search Wikipedia for other 'Harvey' references, just in case there are some more that might be self-promotion masquerading as legitimate references?

BGriffin (talk) 01:26, 6 May 2017 (UTC)BGRIFFIN

Harvey misquoted?

The article has

quote

As Professor Harvey of the University of Toronto notes, "due to the absence of throttling [constant amount of air admitted, per unit fuel, with no user-determined variation], the high compression ratio and lean fuel mixture, diesel engines are substantially more efficient than spark-ignited engines"

unquote

Is the phrase inside the square brackets in the cited source or added by a WP editor? (I ask because it makes no sense - how is a diesel car controlled? The user determines the position of the accelerator pedal, and thereby varies the amount of fuel per stroke, but the amount of air per stroke is constant!)

86.162.138.178 (talk) 13:16, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Misleading diesel fuel definition

I think it is misleading to define diesel as "any liquid fuel used in diesel engines". Most marine engines are also diesel engines but they are not build to use diesel fuel instead they use Heavy Fuel Oil-s like RMB, IFO or MGO http://www.wartsila.com/products/marine-oil-gas/engines-generating-sets/diesel-engines

All EU countries define diesel by distillation curve.
Please see the difference in gas oil and fuel oil:
"(e) ‘gas oils’ (subheadings 2710 19 31 to 2710 19 48 and 2710 2011 to 2710 2019) mean heavy oils as defined in paragraph (d) above of which 85% or more by volume (including losses) distils at 350 C (ISO 3405 method (equivalent to the ASTM D 86 method);
(f) ‘fuel oils’ (subheadings 2710 19 51 to 2710 19 68 and 2710 2031 to 2710 2039) mean heavy oils as defined in paragraph (d) above (other than gas oils as defined in paragraph (e) above) which, for a corresponding diluted colour C, have a viscosity V:
not exceeding that shown in line I of the following table when the sulphated ashes content is less than 1% by the ISO 3987 method and the saponification index is less than 4 by the ISO 6293-1 or 6293-2 method,
exceeding that shown in line II when the pour point is not less than 10 C by the ISO 3016 method,
exceeding that shown in line I but not exceeding that shown in line II when 25% or more by volume distils at 300 C by the ISO 3405 method (equivalent to the ASTM D 86 method) or, if less than 25% by volume distils at 300 C, when the pour point is higher than 10 C below zero by the ISO 3016 method. These provisions apply only to oils having a diluted colour C of less than 2."
https://www.gov.uk/trade-tariff/chapters/27
I suggest to define diesel as any distilled gas oil used in diesel engine. Diesels is similar to light fuel oil, not to the heavy fuel oil used in central heating plants. Light fuel oil is mostly used for domestic heating. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.191.76.230 (talk) 21:42, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

This article is a mess. It's going to take a major re-write to fix it. The basic problem I think is that many people think "diesel fuel" is whatever you put in to the tank of a diesel engine, but to an engineer or chemist, diesel fuel is a petroleum distillate with a particular fraction profile, perhaps with some additives. This article can't decide which definition to use. Compounding the problem is that the section on "real" diesel fuel, "Petroleum diesel", is by far the shortest. The Biodiesel section is way longer despite there already being a separate article on biodiesel.

Fixing this will take more than just tweaking a few words in the lead. Since the article uses the vernacular definition that includes both petro- and bio- diesel, we can't contradict that in the lead. Kendall-K1 (talk) 22:38, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Some marine big Diesel motors are designed to use LNG, mainly in LNG carriers, and developments are now in progress to use ammonia as fuel · Thence, the word Diesel should be used only for definition of motors, and not for the fuel they use.Dojada (talk) 16:10, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

References

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Weight of Fuel ?

What is the weight of different kinds of diesel fuel in kg/L ? Tabletop (talk) 04:55, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

This talk page is not for discussion of the subject; it's for discussion about the article. See Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Kendall-K1 (talk) 05:00, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

• Good question, thanks for raising it. It's covered in the article, but not in detail and not sourced.

Unsurprisingly, there are varying standards for different grades, and some leeway within them. Government standards often mandate these, often because there are tax issues involved and whenever a government wants to tax something, the first thing is to define precisely what the thing is. https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/fuel_reference.php

Road fuel has a density of 833 to 837 kg/m³, non-road vehicle (usually lower taxed) is denser at 835 to 845kg/m³. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:56, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

By comparison, water (in the Metric system) weighs 1kg/L, or 1000kg/m³.

A tabulation, in this article, of the various characteristic of different fuels, plus non-fuel water as a benchmark, would be handy. Tabletop (talk) 06:33, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

producers (2017)

Missing Information about producers, market shares and world consumption — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.202.35.167 (talk) 04:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Aviation fuel and Diesel fuel

can diesel fuel be used in stead of aviation fuel without causing any damage to the aircraft or failure in operation?

MSG Rees — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.95.254.2 (talk) 19:20, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

JP-4 (fuel) and diesel fuels are both kerosenes. A gas turbine engine should have no problem with either. Yet for maximum efficiency the burners may have modifications to suit each fuel. Aspro (talk) 23:42, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

No, JP-4 is not kerosene. Nor is it usable for diesel engines.

"Jet engine fuel" is, broadly speaking, "kerosene"; as is diesel fuel. However both have specialist developments for their particular applications.

Diesel fuel must be injected at high pressure. This requires high precision and low wear rates in the fuel injectors and injection pump. Fuel for a diesel engine must have high lubricity. Biodiesel, and simple kerosene, do not, which is why neither can be used in all diesel engines without developing pump components that are extra hard-wearing: why some particular Volkswagen and Mercedes models are so favoured by the biodiesel experimenters.

Jet fuel has its specific requirements too. Jet A-1 is the standard civil aviation fuel worldwide, except for the US, whilst military fuels might have even stricter performance requirements for low temperature operation, high temperature operation (supersonic speeds "heat soak" friction heating into wing tanks), flammability and static sensitivity, or low soot combustion to avoid visible smoke trails. Then there are specialist ultra-high-speed fuels like JP-6 and JP-7 for the Valkyrie or Habu.

The formula for jet fuel is also closely tailored to what the engines are expecting to burn. Although they can be adjusted, this is a complex process, especially in the early days of hydraulic controls rather than FADEC. Military jet fuel must also be cheap, storable and producable in large quantities in time of war. In the 1950s, the road diesel engine was still relatively rare (smaller trucks were still petrol) and so there was a larger availability in the US of gasoline than of diesel. US Air Force jet aircraft were designed around the first JP-1 fuel (kerosene) or AVTUR but USN or USMC jet aircraft in Korea were using JP-3, a "wide cut" kerosene / gasoline mix. JP-3 also allowed better use of fuel bunker space on carriers that were still predominantly carrying piston-engined aircraft. Bunkers of kerosene and gasoline AVGAS could be mixed on board, as needed, to produce JP-3 for the jets. In fact, some Marine jet aircraft could be adjusted to run on neat AVGAS itself. The Navy hated always hated AVGAS though, because of the fire risks, and wanted a plain kerosene fuel.

In 1951, the USAF recognised (slightly) that the USMC were not the enemy and agreed a new unified standard for a single shared jet fuel, JP-4 or AVTAG. This was another wide cut fuel, with a mixture of kerosene and gasoline. This became the standard US jet fuel until 1995.

The USN though still wanted a less risky fuel, and weren't sure about this whole "The USAF are not the enemy" thing. So they invented JP-5 or AVCAT, a fuel of their own. This was kerosene based, for the lower fire risk.

Diesel engines will not run well on JP-4 or JP-5, they break. See notes above on lubricity. Yes they will run, under wartime conditions, but they break. Soviet diesel engines though, owing to the poor fuel quality of soviet diesel fuel anyway, always had the hardened injection components that are less fussy and they run fine on it. The Soviets always loved to hard chrome plate everything.

After the end of the Cold War and the Gulf War, NATO decided to remove the last petrol engines from service and go to entirely diesel land forces, for reduced fire risk. The last Meteor-engined tanks (Centurion AVRE) and the Rolls-Royce B range engines from the Alvis Saracen and Stalwart were withdrawn whilst the CVR(T) were re-engined from the Jaguar car engine to a British Cummins BTA diesel. Light motorcycles and chainsaws remained a problem though. An entirely diesel land fleet also allowed potential fuel sharing with a jet aviation fleet. JP-8 fuel was used for this, a single fuel that the USMC and other sea-carried land forces had been using for some years already, and the Soviets had been doing since the outset of jet engines. This is a pure kerosene fuel (alleged by troops to be blended with either whale oil or the fat of Falkland penguins, according to its extreme oiliness and persistent smell). Again, it isn't perfect for diesel engines and requires their injection systems to be hardened - in practice it works for the heavy military vehicles intended for it, but it breaks civilian cars (except in Germany) purchased as staff cars. It's also smelly enough to make Autolycus a credible detection system again. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:58, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

@ Andy Dingley: Where did I say that jet fuel was suitable for diesel engines? Pointed out that that diesel will fuel a gas turbine engine, just like methane, methanol, ethanol, hydrogen and any other suitable fuel will do. Your diatribe (although interesting) isn’t about what the OP was asking. Even if you only have one eye or have to rely on a 'text to speech' machine, please read and comprehend the posts first. Why did you go off on a tangent about oil compression ignition engines and put words in to my mouth -which I did not say nor suggested? Aspro (talk) 13:47, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

You said that JP-4 was kerosene. It isn't.

As to "diatribe", then don't flatter yourself - you're not that interesting. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:07, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Said and note: I said and quote “broadly speaking” ! The fact that the cheaper paraffin fractions have cheap low-flash point hydrocarbons added (which have no use for infernal combustion engines due to their low octane and cetane number – hence cheap). does not address the OP's question. However, I think 'your' interesting for an example as to how people can go off on a tangent and drop the ball. Touché perhaps? Aspro (talk) 21:52, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

As ever, WP has an article about it: Kerosene and related jet aircraft fuels. |Major products. Mind you, your approached to this, is like, you have some professional experience rather than being just a gas-station attendant. You often show you posses a polysyllabic vocabulary. What is your professional background? Aspro (talk) 22:24, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Higher?

Could someone clarify this statement in the article:

Diesel engines have found broad use as a result of higher thermodynamic efficiency and thus fuel efficiency.

Higher than what? Julesd 11:51, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Higher than almost any other engine. The Carnot cycle represents a theoretical limitation on engine efficiency. Carnot shows that the higher the compression ratio, the more scope there is for reaching higher and higher efficiency. Diesels have high compression ratios and this alone (thermodynamic efficiency, so affecting their gas expansion and mechanical power extraction, rather than anything involving combustion) makes them potentially more efficient than any lower compression engine. As all engines have now had long efforts expended on improving their efficiencies, these theoretical limits become important.

For vehicles, diesel engines have long (1930s to 1950s) replaced petrol engines. This is the case for anything where fuel efficiency outweighs convenience, so trucks, trains, ships, taxis but not private cars. For generating plants, diesel are up against gas turbine plants. Now this is tricky - gas turbines have increased their pressure ratios (their analogue to a compression ratio) in recent decades, so they're also theoretically efficient. The difficulty is that they still can't extract as much waste heat from their exhausts, also they're too expensive for small applications. So gas turbines have replaced diesel for gas-powered electricity generating plants and also fast ships, but not trucks.

Another virtue of the diesel is its part-power performance. A large petrol engine, and especially a gas turbine, become far less efficient when used at low power. The diesel remains much more efficient (in fuel burned per horsepower per hour). So for varying loads, like road vehicles, the diesel has an advantage. Also, when idling off-load, the diesel uses far less fuel. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:11, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

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"Diesel fuel/redirs" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Diesel fuel/redirs. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 14#Diesel fuel/redirs until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm _Bacon 04:50, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Taking content from a pressrelease

Can I use the below content from a press release and cite it. I think this is a valuable content.. Would require other authors inputs.

Cetane improver additives are extensively used in the automobile industry to facilitate better combustion in diesel fuels and to follow stringent government regulations. There are two national diesel fuel standards in China – GB 19147 for on road vehicles and GB 252 (general diesel fuel) –for other applications including non-road engines. China V Emission standards have been set with an objective to decrease sulfur content down to 10 ppm and increase Cetane levels up to the 51 level. The specifications for China V and China VI fuel, GB 19147-2016, were issued in December 2016. The China VI gasoline and diesel standards are generally more stringent than the Euro V fuel standards currently in force in the European Union, although China’s fuel quality standards otherwise mostly follow European precedents. - https://www.industryarc.com/PressRelease/2418/Cetane-Improver-Additives-Market-Research.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bejjamvijayvardhan (talk • contribs) 11:31, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Chemical composition

I'm not sure how much sense it makes to cite an 'average composition' of a substance that is 75% alkanes with chemical formulas that are not alkanes. Alkanes must have formulas of the form C_nH_2+n*2. Thoughts? --Fish-man (talk) 20:04, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The problem with the term Diesel fuel is that its definition is very vague – therefore, in Europe, the term Diesel fuel is narrowed down to what is standardised in the Euronorm 590 standard. However, ideal fuel for Diesel engines consists of 100 % Alkanes which makes it not EN 590 compliant – thus it is not Diesel fuel. If the section was about "ideal Diesel fuel", then the chemical formula should be changed, obviously. However, that particular section is on the chemical composition of American Diesel fuel, which apparently consists of 25 % aromatic hydrocarbons. In that case, non-Alkane chemical formulas make sense (so there is no need for changing them). Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 10:17, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Different Types of Diesel Fuel at Gas Stations

Pumps usually offer two type of diesel fuel. PLease would someone knowledgable add information about what the difference is ? Many Thanks ! Darkman101 (talk) 01:34, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

That depends upon the petrol station where you're getting the fuel. I suppose you're in the US, and in the US the ASTM D975 standard is used. There are two categories of road-vehicle fuel according to this standard, No. 1-D and No. 2-D. The key difference between these fuels is the volatility; No. 1-D fuel is basically better suited for low temperatures. In Europe on the other hand the Euronorm 590 standard applies. This standard allows a certain range of different fuels, because it only limits the physical properties of the fuel. Most importantly, it specifies the density (0.820...0.845 kg·dm⁻³). Typically, bog-standard diesel fuel complies with this standard, but has some disadvantages, namely the poor ignition characteristics (>51 CN). An ideal Diesel engine fuel with good ignition characteristics consists only of alkanes that are lighter than what the standard allows (>80 CN). Therefore, an ideal Diesel engine fuel cannot be sold as "diesel fuel" across Europe. However, it is possible to mix bog-standard diesel fuel with alkanes in a way that the resulting fuel blend still complies with the EN 590 standard (>60 CN). This means that "officially" there is only one type of fuel; in practice though, these optimised fuels are often sold as performance fuels (Shell V-Power or Aral Ultimate). Due to their much better ignition characteristics these fuels perform better during winter. Fuel is typically mixed with anti-gel agents during winter, so there is no need to buy "special winter fuel" (=all diesel fuels sold during winter are winter fuels). Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 11:22, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I am in the UK, where many fuel pumps have "Diesel" and "Premium Diesel".

I cannot find any clear reliable source of information that will tell me if the extra price will really give me more miles per gallon. Darkman101 (talk) 13:32, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Move

Diesel fuel should be moved to diesel because that is the overwhelmingly primary usage. If not, then at least to diesel (fuel) because it is extremely rarely referred to as diesel fuel in modern times. 2A02:C7F:31CF:6400:DCB0:FD34:6E4A:1596 (talk) 12:24, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Do you know of any reliable sources that can be used to verify your claim? I strongly believe that this is a delusion because virtually every WP:RS-and-WP:V-compliant book related to the topic refers to fuel suited for Diesel engines as "diesel fuel". The same is true for the most common diesel fuel standards (EN590 and ASTM D975). Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 12:46, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Fatty acids

This sentence is misleading:"Biodiesel is obtained from vegetable oil or animal fats (biolipids) which are mainly fatty acid methyl esters (FAME), and transesterified with methanol." Biolipids are esters of propan-tri-ol (glycerine) and fatty acids, not methyl esters. They become FAME through transesterification. 153.100.134.67 (talk) 14:08, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

"Otto" engine

it would be useful to link to Otto engine to clarify. 142.163.195.114 (talk) 14:48, 15 March 2024 (UTC)