Talk:De La Salle Brothers

Text removed from St. Joseph High School (Westchester, Illinois)

Possibly of some use here (but note the image is fair use, unknown provenance):

Christian Brothers and the Lasallian Tradition

SJHS is a Lasallian school and a part of the Christian Brothers Midwest District.

The Brothers of the Christian Schools, known as the De La Salle Christian Brothers, are members of one of the largest worldwide societies in the Roman Catholic Church. St. Jean Baptist de La Salle in France founded the order in 1680 for the purpose of providing a Christian education for youth. For more than three hundred years, in over eighty countries, the Christian Brothers have conducted elementary and secondary schools along with colleges and universities.

Currently, in the United States, nearly 2,000 Christian Brothers are involved in educational enterprises representing 75 high schools, several middle schools and seven colleges and universities. Alumni of Lasallian schools have traditionally shared a common bond of unity and pride through the years.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dhartung (talk • contribs) 18:22, 26 March 2007

Saint Jean-Baptiste de la Salle, founder

The first paragraph is specific to SJHS. The second is already more or less included in the article or in the related Lasallian educational institutions. The third may be added to the introduction of the latter article; however, I am reluctant to do so since it is not sourced.

Following your suggestion, I introduced the image into the article; it is different to the one presently given in Jean-Baptiste de la Salle, and fits the scope of the article well. However, I used a higher-resolution version that was available on the Commons (shown to the left). Ayla 20:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Ignorantines = Lasallians?

It appears that Ignorantines is an old alternative name for the Institute, so these articles should no doubt be merged.- choster 16:31, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Ignorantines now redirects to this article. Pol098 (talk) 12:21, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

St Joseph's College, Ipswich

I have removed the edit about abuse at St Joseph's College, Ipswich. There are no articles, that I can find, that mention any abuse by a past headmaster or anyone for that matter at that school.

There are articles on a St Joseph College in Australia or one in Croydon but not the one in Ipswich. The reference only mentions the property being sold, nothing about any abuse. Because of the controversy of the edit, I have removed it. If anyone can back it up with a secondary source, I will more than happy to have it restored. Pjposullivan (talk) 18:29, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

This sentence was inserted in the comment above at 12:02, 28 August 2017‎ by Survivora; I've moved it here:

(Try this then ) https://patmills.wordpress.com/2016/10/21/roll-of-dishonour/

The problem is that this reference doesn't conform with the Wikipedia policy on reliable sources; if used to support text in the article, it would quickly be deleted by someone. If a published news source can be supplied, then the text becomes acceptable, and the Wikipedia community will resist it being deleted if it's notable and relevant. You'll see by my other comments in this discussion that I've objected to, and reverted, deletion of reliably sourced information. I'm not trying to lay down the law here, rather to point out that what's needed is to find a published source; that's the way to get anything accepted by the multitude of people editing Wikipedia. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 13:54, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

"Sanitisation" of reliably-sourced sexual abuse

There has been at least one attempt by an unregistered editor to remove the impeccably-sourced section on sexual abuse in Northern Ireland by the De La Salle Brothers which was the subject of a 2014 official inquiry, with edit summary Sexual abuse of boys: This section referred to incidents committed by the Congregation of the Christian Brothers, NOT the Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/20_05_09_abuse.pdf. Whether this was done in ignorance, or as a deliberate attempt to remove material (justifiably) critical of the De La Salle Brothers I can't say. The article cites the 2014 Northern Ireland Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry; the source claimed correctly but irrelevantly in the summary not to mention the De La Salle Brothers is actually the 2009 Ryan Commission report, relating only to Eire (Ireland), and not the different country Northern Ireland. Future edits regarding this section need to be checked for validity; existing sources for the section are robust. Pol098 (talk) 13:08, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Another blatant example, a year later. This one is definitely intentional. Pol098 (talk) 21:51, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 21 August 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. I don't see any significant opposition.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:02, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

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Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools → De La Salle Brothers – as far as I can see, "Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools" is the WP:OFFICIAL title, not the WP:COMMONNAME.
The current title is also ambiguous with the Irish Christian Brothers, whose head article is currently at the official name: Congregation of Christian Brothers. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:41, 21 August 2016 (UTC) BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:41, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Term	Google News	Google Books
"De La Salle Brothers"	179 hits	54 hits
"Lasallian Brothers"	24 hits	26 hits
"Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools"	55 hits	45 hits
"French Christian Brothers"added later	5 hits	17 hits

Evidence of usage is in the table on the right.

Note that per WP:AT, I used Gnews and Gbooks (rather than Google web search), because Gnews and Gbooks concentrate reliable sources. In the book searches, I have tried to exclude Wikipedia republishers, and in each case I have checked to the end of the results, because the initial headline numbers for these searches are wildly exaggerated. I have also used pws=0 de-personalization parameter.

The Brothers own website is at http://www.lasalle.org/ where they appear to use a variety of terms. "De La Salle", "Lasallian", "the Institute" etc.

--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:59, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

As a comment (I don't have a strong opinion) both the Lasallians and the Irish are quite often referred to, confusingly as "Christian Brothers", usually with a clarification somewhere in a newspaper article. So the existing article titles, both of which include "Christian" and "Brothers", might be preferable. I have no idea of the comparative frequency of "De La Salle Brothers", "Christian Brothers", and so on - search engine statistics won't help due to the ambiguous name. It's not terribly important due to the redirects. Best wishes Pol098 (talk) 22:32, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

@Pol098: the page Christian Brothers is, quite appropriately, a dab page. I had intended to open an RM on the Irish order at the same time as this one, but didn't get to finish it last night. I have now done so, and have pasted the link below.

Given that ambiguity, it seems to me that we have a choice of three options:

1. Use the official title, as currently used
2. Use the most common unambiguous name, as I propose
3. Use parenthetical disambiguation, e.g. Christian Brothers (De La Salle) or Christian Brothers (Lasallian).

WP:NATURALDIS tends to frown on the parenthetical option when we have viable alternatives, which leaves a choice between "De La Salle Brothers" and "Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools". The former is much more recognisable, and much less ambiguous. How many non-specialist readers will be able to distinguish between "Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools" and "Congregation of Christian Brothers"? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:55, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

• Related discussion see also Talk:Congregation of Christian Brothers/Archive 1/Archives/ 1/Archives/ 1/Archives/ 1#Requested_move_22_August_2016. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:46, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
• Note CFD. This discussion (and the related RM discussion on the Irish Christian Brothers) arise out of the current (and still open) CFD debate on Category:Christian Brother (Irish) schools. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:21, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
• If the Irish organization is proposed to be renamed to Irish Christian Brothers, then why not rename the French organization to French Christian Brothers? Gjs238 (talk)
  • @Gjs238: because in the Irish case, "Irish Christian Brothers" is the WP:COMMONNAME. In this case, "French Christian Brothers" is not the commonname. See the table above for the Ghits for that terms, which I have added in this edit. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:02, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support Unlike my view on the request move of "Congregation of Christian Brothers" to "Irish Christian Brothers," I think moving this article to "De La Salle Brothers" is in order. In this instance, while "Christian Brothers" is commonly used to refer to the Lesallian Brothers (as well as their Irish counterparts), it is not as common as "De La Salle Brothers." I do also believe that the WP:COMMONNAME policy applies and would hold that the move be encouraged. Ergo Sum 03:22, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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