Talk:Clint Hocking

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Clint Hocking/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: OceanHok (talk · contribs) 02:19, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

I requested this article at WP:VG/R before. Nice work! OceanHok (talk) 02:19, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. When I saw this request, after looking at the amount of coverage online I was suprised the article was not made earlier. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

• 2005's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, which was critically acclaimed and a commercial success. - "which was both a critical and commercial success" seems to flow better

   Done

• due to him being too comfortable and wanting a new challenge - being too comfortable to what?

   Done Clarified to "due to him being too comfortable at the studio"

• The second paragraph in the lead is a bit clunky. Just mentioned he briefly worked at Amazon, Valve and LucasArts before returning to Ubisoft for Watch Dogs Legion.

  Not really sure what to change here since that is a summary of his later career though it does include when he coined ludonarrative dissonance and writing for Edge. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

I think the first four sentences of this paragraph can be simplified into one. His stint in Amazon/Valve/LucasArts isn't that significant given that he did not release a single game during this period.

 Done Condensed to "Between 2010 and 2015, Hocking joined LucasArts, Valve, and Amazon Game Studios in various senior roles, in the United States. Throughout this period, he did not release any new games and in August 2015 returned to to Ubisoft, this time at their Toronto studio."

• this time at their Toronto studio - which studio he worked at in the first time? Montreal? Quebec? Good to mention the year he returned to Ubi as well.

  Is this referring to the lead or Carrer section? In both cases, I established that he worked at the Montreal studio before. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed that! Thanks!

• There is way too much references. Remove some of them per WP:CITEKILL

  I condensed the large number of references in the ludonarrative dissonance section to a note since a fair number of refs are needed to demonstrate a the term has been "widely used" and removed some other refs.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• During the two year development, Hocking was working 80 hours a week - During the game's two-year development.

   Done

• This high-level of working caused him - "high-level of working" seems strange. Maybe "huge workload" instead?

   Done Changed to "large workload"  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• Information on Far Cry 2 is a bit lacking. Maybe a bit more information on the game itself since you mention the game breaks "many conventions of its genre".

  I added some more infomation stating it is a first-person shooter featuring an open world.

But what conventions does the game break though? What is his part in envisioning all these genre-breaking elements? I don't quite remember Far Cry 2 now but I remember it has like, malaria infections and stuff? Maybe a bit more on the "unconventional" gameplay elements?

 Done Elaborated on various polarizing gameplay elements in Far Cry 2: "Hocking and critics noted some of its reception was polarizing, which he attributed to the game breaking many conventions of the shooter and open world genre. Some gameplay elements, which immersed the player, critics found polarizing. This included when the player's firearm would jam, a map being a crumpled piece of paper in the player character's hands as opposed to one found within a menu, and malaria which the player character can get throughout the game and needs to treated by medicine from civilians otherwise the player character will die."

• Hocking joined LucasArts as the creative director on an unannounced project being worked on in their San Francisco, United States studio - Don't really need to mention that SF is in US. "Hocking joined LucasArts in SF as the creative director on an unannounced project" seems to flow a bit better

   Done

• It was suspected he was working on the unannounced Left 4 Dead 3 during his eighteen months at the company - This is WP:RUMOR.

   Done Removed

• In April of the same year, Hocking, along with Kim Swift, joined Amazon Game Studios, also based in Seattle - along with Kim Swift doesn't sound necessary. They are not working together on the same project, right? Swift has previously worked on Valve's Portal, Left 4 Dead, and its sequel Left 4 Dead 2. isn't relevent as well.

  Removed, not stated if they worked on the same project. But they were both hired as senior game designers [1].  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• He said he enjoyed working with new people but we wanted to start working on something that people will get to play.[51] He stated, "I realized I had not shipped a game in seven years" - we => he. "He said he enjoyed working with new people but we wanted to start working on something that people will get to play, having realized that he has not shipped a game in seven years" seems to flow a bit better.

   Done Merged the two sentences.

• Hocking also expressed difficulties in obtaining a green card and being on his third visa whilst in the United States, he wanted to return to Canada - "he wanted to return to Canada" because of problems with the green card. Is there a casual relationship? It is unclear.

   Done Clarified to "...which was another reason he wanted to return to Canada"  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• He was excited to return to Ubisoft and he stated: "I know most of the people who were involved in founding the studio personally, and almost all of them are still here" - You should paraphrase this.

  I see your point about parapharsing. I decided to paraphase a part earlier in paragraph: "I realized I had not shipped a game in seven years" to "Hocking realized that he had not released a game in seven years". Since that was a rather uninteresting quote as opposed to the Hocking knowing his former co-workers. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• You don't really need the notes. They are unnecessary and didn't add much even as an appendix.

   Done Removed.

It would be great if you copyedit the article one more time. I would look at the sources after you fix the WP:CITEKILL problem. Putting this on hold. OceanHok (talk) 10:51, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

@OceanHok:I have responsed to your comments above and looked over the article one more time c/e small parts. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:59, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the part about WP:CITEKILL, I don't think you need all these sources to establish that the ludonarrative dissonance term is commonly used. One or two sources that establish the term's significance is good enough. Normally, by the end of each sentence, usually 1 source should suffice. It is ok to have 2 sources, fairly uncommon to have 3, but having 4 is definitely excessive. For simple things like In January 2014, Hocking left Valve without releasing a game, having 1 source to support the statement is good enough already. OceanHok (talk) 04:19, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

@OceanHok:I have responsed to your comments above (condensed lead section about Amazon/Valve/LucasArts and expanded section on Far Cry 2 gameplay elements). Regarding WP:CITEKILL, we must take caution when quoting CITEKILL as it is a user essay not part of policy or MoS. I generally take the stance that more reliable sources being cited against a claim is better than less especially so on material relating to living persons. I do this becuase if a source becomes depreciated (or no longer generally reliable) I will not have to rework the whole article. Is there any part similiar to CITEKILL found in policies or relevant MOS found in the GA criteria? Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 20:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

MOS usually won't hold back a GA, but I think it will be way better if you try to limit the number of sources in your future nominations. Anyway, source 3 is a IGN wiki source and needs to be removed/replaced. Source 51, 55, and 56 are not listed as a RS and should be replaced/removed as well. OceanHok (talk) 11:56, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

@OceanHok: I have removed Source 51, 55, and 56. Source 3 from IGN seems to be a profile page. These are found are linked to in articles about the subject. For example an article by IGN on LittleBigPlanet ([2]) links to its profile page ([3]) as opposed to a wiki. It gives a summary in the About page and related news. I have also removed two more sources for CITEKILL, though is any part of CITEKILL in MOS? Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 14:46, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and removed it for failed verification. Anyway, beyond that, I think the article is in good shape. CITEKILL is MOS-ish, though MOS is never considered part of the GA guideline. Anyway, I think the article is in good shape, and I can pass this for GA. OceanHok (talk) 14:59, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

If you cannot view the site an archive can be seen here [4]. Regardless, thank you for the review and feedback. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 15:14, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

DYK

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:36, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Clint Hocking in 2007

• ... that during the development of Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory that Clint Hocking (pictured) had brain damage as a result of working 80 hours a week? Source: "Clint Hocking said the 80-hour weeks he worked during the development of Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory "gave me brain damage"" PC Gamer, [5]
  • ALT1:... that during the development of Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory that Clint Hocking (pictured) had brain damage whilst working as scriptwriter, lead level designer, and creative director? Source: PC Gamer, [6], Ubisoft [7]
  • ALT2:... that during the development of Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory that Clint Hocking (pictured) had brain damage whilst working 80 hours a week? Source: "Clint Hocking said the 80-hour weeks he worked during the development of Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory "gave me brain damage"" PC Gamer, [8]
  • ALT3:... that Clint Hocking (pictured) was the scriptwriter, lead level designer, and creative director for Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (2005)? Source: Ubisoft [9]
  • ALT4:... that Clint Hocking (pictured) worked at Ubisoft Montreal, LucasArts, Valve, Amazon Game Studios and Ubisoft Toronto in various senior roles between 2010 and 2015? Source: Various. Left Ubisoft Montreal [10] (2010). Joined LucasArts [11] (2010). Left LucasArts [12] (2012). Joined Valve [13] (2012). Left Valve [14] (2014). Joined Amazon Game Studios [15] (2014). Left Amazon Game Studios (2015) and joined Ubisoft Toronto [16] (2015).
  • ALT5:... that Clint Hocking (pictured) was the level designer, game designer, and scriptwriter for Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell (2002)? Source: MCV/Develop [17]

• Reviewed: Exempt: fewer than 5 DYK credits.
• Comment: Promoted to GA status on 25 April 2020

Improved to Good Article status by Spy-cicle (talk). Self-nominated at 23:46, 26 April 2020 (UTC).

• While the first two hooks are interesting, I’m not sure that a primary blog post quote of gave me brain damage can be used as an unattributed “he had brain damage”. ALT4 is also less interesting than the others. Copy editing issues to be resolved on the talk page. — MarkH₂₁^talk 17:21, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

• @MarkH21: Considering this was reported in numerous reliable, secondary sources I considered it to be true but it could be changed to "Hocking claimed to have brain damage whilst...". Although there are other ALTs to choose from. The copy editing issues have been resolved. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 12:13, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

• The secondary sources themselves attribute it as a primary source quote though, right?
  Sorry, this DYK has slipped my mind for a while. I’ll review it soon! — MarkH₂₁^talk 01:03, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

• QPQ Exempt, recent GA, meets length and formatting requirements, no copyvios found via Earwig and manual inspection. I prefer ALT5; ALT3 is almost the same but the 2002 game was the first in the series so perhaps slightly more "iconic"; the first three hooks are interesting but would probably have to be modified to reflect that it's him saying that he had brain damage, which would then make the hooks too long; ALT4 is less interesting, as mostly a list of workplaces. — MarkH₂₁^talk 09:00, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

  Thanks for the review. Regards Spy-cicle 14:05, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Lead formatting, WP voice, overlinking, and "when" tag issues

@Spy-cicle: I'll break down the four separate issues with the status-quo reverting here and here that just states I see no improvement in the lead. Pinging OceanHok as the reviewer of the recent GA review. — MarkH₂₁^talk 16:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Lead formatting

The lead should be a summary of its most important contents (MOS:LEAD) and the first paragraph should define or identify the topic with a neutral point of view, but without being too specific (MOS:LEADPARAGRAPH). Major parts of the lead describe Hocking's career moves with far too much detail for such a short article, and the first paragraph only covers pre-2010 events of his life. The first paragraph is for provide an overview of the entire subject, not for the first half of the history of a subject. — MarkH₂₁^talk 16:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

@MarkH21: The first two sentences already define the topic. Clint Hocking is a Canadian video game director and designer. He has primarily worked at the Canadian developer Ubisoft, where he first designed and wrote scripts for 2002's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell. There is little point of having a one sentence long paragraph of an article when the lead is already pretty short. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Again, MOS:LEADPARAGRAPH means that the first paragraph (not sentence) is for an overview of the subject. Since the article is quite short, the lead should really be trimmed to just one short paragraph because there's way too much detail relative to the body right now. Regardless, it's a greater issue that the lead into two paragraphs based on pre-2010 and post-2010. — MarkH₂₁^talk 21:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

To meet MOS:LEADPARAGRAPH perhaps something like:

Clint Hocking is a Canadian video game director and designer. He has primarily worked at the Canadian developer Ubisoft, where he helped develop three titles and briefly worked at LucasArts, Valve, and Amazon Game Studios.

Hocking started his career at Ubisoft, where he first designed and wrote scripts for 2002's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell. Hocking rose to prominence when he moved up to direct 2005's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, which was both a critical and commercial success. He went on direct 2008's Far Cry 2, which was positively received by critics. In 2010, he left Ubisoft Montreal due to him being too comfortable at the studio and wanting a new challenge. Between 2010 and 2015, Hocking joined LucasArts, Valve, and Amazon Game Studios in various senior roles, in the United States. Throughout this period, he did not release any new games and in August 2015 returned to Ubisoft, this time at their Toronto studio. Soon after, development for Watch Dogs: Legion began with Hocking as the creative director. Across his career, Hocking has written monthly columns for the video game magazine Edge, and coined the term ludonarrative dissonance, which has been widely used in the industry.

Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 21:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

This is similar to the version that I changed it to and largely fine. I still think that it has a few unnecessary details for the lead, like in the United States and Throughout this period, he did not release any new games, or passive wording in development for Watch Dogs: Legion began with Hocking as the creative director. The lead does not need to describe everything that a person has done nor emphasize each location where a person has lived; the article body covers that. — MarkH₂₁^talk 16:56, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

End up changing the lead to:

Clint Hocking is a Canadian video game director and designer. He has primarily worked at the Canadian divisions of the French developer Ubisoft, where he developed three titles and briefly worked at LucasArts, Valve, and Amazon Game Studios.

Hocking started his career at Ubisoft, where he first designed and wrote scripts for 2002's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell. He rose to prominence when he moved up to direct 2005's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, which was both a critical and commercial success. He went on direct 2008's Far Cry 2, which was positively received by critics. In 2010, he left Ubisoft Montreal due to him being "too comfortable" at the studio. Between 2010 and 2015, Hocking joined LucasArts, Valve, and Amazon Game Studios in various senior roles. Throughout this period, he did not release any new games and in August 2015 returned to Ubisoft, this time at their Toronto studio. His first project at the studio is directing Watch Dogs: Legion. Across his career, Hocking has written monthly columns for the video game magazine Edge, and coined the term ludonarrative dissonance, which has been widely used in the industry.

Removed in the United States. Condensed Soon after, development for Watch Dogs: Legion began with Hocking as the creative director. to His first project at the studio is directing Watch Dogs: Legion. Also clarified that Ubisoft is a French video game developer but he worked at the Candian divisions. I decided to keep the mention that he did not release any games at LucasArts, Valve, and Amazon Game Studios since it is quite unusual to leave a video game developer without releasing a single game let alone three developers. Regards Spy-cicle 19:06, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Made some minor changes; it’s not necessary to delineate where Ubisoft is from in the lead here (specifying Canadian divisions is sufficient) and an upcoming game / first project at the new studio doesn’t need to be in the lead unless/until it becomes one of his major accomplishments (i.e. after the fact). — MarkH₂₁^talk 02:52, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

WP Voice

The lead states he left Ubisoft Montreal due to him being too comfortable at the studio and wanting a new challenge. This is attributed to him via a primary source (his blog) and not something that can just be stated in the lead in unattributed WP voice. This is also not really a detail that is "summary"-style mention for the lead. — MarkH₂₁^talk 16:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

That statement is found throughout reliable secondary sources as well. That statement is uncontroversial to be in Wikipedia's voice. Because this is Hocking's reasons as to why he left not anyone else's. Saying "According to Hocking, Hocking left Ubisoft left Ubisoft Montreal due to him being too comfortable at the studio and wanting a new challenge." would be illogical. I would understand if it were are more contentious statement like:

E.g. Statement from Hocking: "Far Cry 2 was the best game of 2008" --> Wiki voice: "Far Cry 2 was the best game of 2008". That would be violation of Wiki's voice. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

The secondary sources only quote his blog post. The way that it's presented in quotation marks, Hocking left because he felt he had become "too comfortable" at the studio is an appropriate level of WP:INTEXT. But the reasoning for his moves from different companies isn't really something for the lead anyways (unless it is demonstrably controversial or an otherwise important part of his biography). — MarkH₂₁^talk 22:05, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I have changed he left Ubisoft Montreal due to him being too comfortable at the studio and wanting a new challenge. to he left Ubisoft Montreal due to him being "too comfortable" at the studio. I think it is worth a brief mention in the lead considering that he was there for nine years and a important part of his career. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 21:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Overlinking

Per MOS:REPEATLINK: Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers. I removed duplicate links, which are currently common throughout the article.

MOS:REPEATLINK reads: Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, a link may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, hatnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead. The ones you removed were their first occurence in the main body. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

It may be helpful. I'm not sure that it's helpful when the lead is barely longer than the article body. — MarkH₂₁^talk 21:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you here I think it is helpful for reader to access these links within the main body regardless of the length of the article. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 21:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Per MOS:OVERLINK: Unless a term is particularly relevant to the context in the article, the following are usually not linked: [...] The names of subjects with which most readers will be at least somewhat familiar. This generally includes major examples of: locations (e.g., Berlin; New York City, or just New York if the city context is already clear. The link to San Francisco or Montreal currently in the article are examples of this. — MarkH₂₁^talk 16:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I understand not linking to major cities like: London, New York City or Tokyo. I am familiar with both SF and Montreal. But we have to remember English is spoken across the world so it is very easy for North American and other users to say they are familiar with these cities but in other places in the world they may not be as familiar with these cities. If you still think that it is overlinking feel free to delink them. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

These are pretty major cities that don't need wikilinks. — MarkH₂₁^talk 21:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and delinked them. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 21:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

When tag

If the date is unknown, then there's no reason to remove the {{when}} template. The tag is for indicating vague timeframes and asking for clarification, like the current text Soon after which is less specific than something like sometime between 2002 and 2005. It's not clear what soon really means. — MarkH₂₁^talk 16:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

The "Soon after" here already suggests "sometime between 2002 and 2005" as clear from the context since in the previous paragraph it was noted that Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell was released in 2002 and it was noted that Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory was released in 2005 in the same sentence. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

It's still vague and imprecise language. It's not even certain when, between 2002 and 2005, development started let alone whether different people would consider that "soon". It's easily avoidable, so I would propose its replacement by something like: Hocking continued as the scriptwriter as well as the lead level designer in the development of 2005's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory or After the 2002 release of Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell, Hocking worked as the scriptwriter as well as [...]. — MarkH₂₁^talk 22:12, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I have changed "soon after" to --> "After the release of Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell, ..." Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 21:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)