Talk:Chełmno extermination camp/Archive 1

Archive 1

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hi im looking for advice for a project i have to pretend like im going to a concentration camp and have to pack a light bag containing what i think ill need in the camp!! help please

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dcbabe1313

I don't think they had much to take from a Getto. It really depends on who's perspective? A Jew, a Gypsy...a Pole. A mother, a father, a child.... suggest you imagine yourself as a child and remember what was most important to you then. Devoid of race, religion. It's about the core, the immediate emotion of leaving everything..and having perhaps 2 minutes to collect those things that you love the most. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.46.20 (talk) 17:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Driver?

"I then drove the van back to the castle " Should it be "He then drove the van back to the castle" ? Rich Farmbrough 13:00, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

No, it's a quote. 193.157.228.182 (talk) 00:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Eichmann's purported comments

The comments attributed to Adolf Eichmann need to be correctly sourced and referenced. Kingsbury 22:00, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Chełmno extermination camp

Such camp has never existed, the name was Kulmhof.

There is Auschwitz concentration camp, even if the place is called in Polish Oświęcim. Xx236 06:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This should be moved back - in English language histories, the name Chełmno is invariably used. In common usage, the camp complex at Auschwitz/Oświęcim settled on the German version of the name, the one at Chełmno/Kulmhof on the Polish. Is this inconsistent? Yes. But the page-naming policy is to use the most commonly-recognised term. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 10:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I've moved it back. The common name in English is "Chelmno extermination camp". English Wikipedia uses common English names. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Chelmno extermination camp has never existed. Even English language isn't able to create virtual objects. The article should include German name of the camp - it doesn't.Xx236 10:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

There was a death camp, it is named after the nearby village, which has both German and Polish names. The name that is in common use in English for the death camp is the Polish one, Chełmno. That is what the article should have in its title, to conform with usage by historians. You are wrong that the article doesn't include the German name, it includes it in the very first sentence. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 12:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The article doesn't inform what was the real German name of the camp. The staff was called SS Sonderkommando Kulmhof.Xx236 14:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It does now. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is more complicated. I bet the Nazis haven't used the name "Vernichtungslager Kulmhof", it's a post-war German name. The same Auschwitz concentration camp informs that Auschwitz II (Birkenau) was "an extermination camp or Vernichtungslager".Xx236 10:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree the German name should be used. Besides, "Chelmno" isn't even the Polish word. --Offensiveword (talk) 16:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The castle

deathcamps.org/occupation/chelmno.html writes "manor house". Xx236 07:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Any details of this castle?159.105.80.141 15:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Operation of the Camp: word "Plunder".

The first paragraph states: "....an administration section, barracks and storage for plundered goods;"

I would use "plundered" only if the the goods were stolen violently from the houses of the victims. As this storage probably was for goods stolen from the victims at arrival I think the word "stolen" would be better.

Your opinion is appreciated before I would like to change this. Pukkie 06:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Did Mr Burmeister ever tell where the burial site was. If it was done in vans then there must have been an awful lot of trips made to the woods - the trail must still exist. A good chance for forensic verification.159.105.80.141 12:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Gas van / error

The foto shows a van "Magirus" - this type of van was not used as gas chambers vans - look at Weblink: deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/gas_chambers_vans --Holgerjan (talk) 14:21, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Correct, this is not a gas van, see http://www.gombinsociety.org/history/zamosc_enquiries.html I deleted the picture. 91.77.182.187 (talk) 13:02, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Please help me to move this article (December 2009)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Since I'm not an administrator, I can't move it. For a person who doesn't know Polish, it may seem to be a small detail, but this is fundamental in Polish phonology. The name of this camp is Chełmno extermination camp and as I told you, the difference between Chełmno and Chelmno is fundamental. Calle Widmann (talk) 06:31, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, you are completely right in your thinking about the name change. I'm going to try contacting an admin about it.Hoops gza (talk) 14:10, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Superceded by move requested March 2011

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested Move (September 2010)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

• Chelmno extermination camp → Chełmno extermination camp (move) – Spelling correction, see #Please help me to move this article - Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 09:55, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Superceded by 2011 March move request

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Two or three survivors?

According to a number of sources, there were two known survivors of Chelmno: Mordechaï Podchlebnik and Simon Srebnik. In the article on Sara Roy, it says "Her father, Abraham, was one of the two known survivors of the Chelmno extermination camp". Then, in the article on Simon Srebnik, it says he "was one of three people to survive the Nazi German death camp of Chelmno". Were there two or three survivors, and was Sara Roy's father one of them? Shoplifter (talk) 05:46, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

The Simon Srebnik article said 2 when I went to look at it. The reference in Sara Roy is to a book called Prophets Outcast; you can search inside at Amazon and the relevant pages are 344 ("my father, Abraham)-345("My father's name was recognized in Holocaust circles because he was one of two known survivors of the death camp at Chelmno"). From the credits of that book, I find that this was reprinted from Sara Roy, "Living with the Holocaust: The Journey of a Child of Holocaust Survivors", Journal of Palestine Studies (32):1, 2002]; it was given as a lecture previously. Roy, Sara (Fall 2002). "Living with the Holocaust: The Journey of a Child of Holocaust Survivors". Journal of Palestine Studies (125). Institute for Palestine Studies. Retrieved 2008-12-28. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |quotes= (help), reprinted in Shatz, Adam (2004). Prophets Outcast: a Century of Dissident Jewish Writing About Zionism and Israel. NationBooks. pp. 343–356. ISBN 9781560255093.

I think this needs further investigation. I also can't explain why the Polish museum, Chelmno talks about Michał Podchlebnik rather than Mordechaï Podchlebnik, either. Do you know Sara Roy's father's full name? Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 10:50, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

And the article on Shoah_(film) says that the two known survivors were interviewed. Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 10:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Seems like someone has made the call that the three survivors were Mordechaï Podchlebnik, Simon Srebnik and Mordechaï Zurawski. This has been implemented in the relevant articles (not by me), but the article on Sara Roy still says her father was one of two survivors. And still, there is no sourcing for any of these claims. I've not been able to find the full name of Roy's father, but she does claim that he was one of the survivors herself, see [1]. I think the best way to deal with this is to make a new section called "Survivors" and relay that the exact number is disputed, pointing to the disparate claims in works on the topic. Shoplifter (talk) 14:21, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

I think that's reasonable. The museum at the site would be the most authoritative source, I think, if there's info available from them. Perhaps asking for help on the Polish language version page would help. I did eventually figure out that Michał and Mordechaï are both versions of the same name. Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 19:18, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I've tried to set the record straight according to the information available. I'm guessing that Lanzmann's Shoah is the source for the claim that there were two survivors; I've seen the film referenced in a number of sources. I can't explain Roy's assertion, obviously I don't think she's being untruthful. It might be some kind of name or translaton mishap. Shoplifter (talk) 15:38, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

It appears that Roy's father was "Avram Roj," documented under that name and listed in this article by the Holocaust Encyclopedia as one of the seven escapees from Chelmo. Avram is Hebrew for Abraham. Roj was probably changed to Roy after the war, or a variation in spelling. Perhaps he got "lost" in the later count as he, unlike the other three survivors, did not seem to have testified in any of the postwar trials of 1945 and the early 1960s. Her memoir and the encyclopedia provide two sources for his survival. Parkwells (talk) 15:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Requested move (March 2011)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 00:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

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Chelmno extermination camp → Chełmno extermination camp — There should be no great debate about this. The difference between these two terms is fundamental. This is a change to the Polish name. The Polish name is the one that is used invariably by historians. As you can see, the Polish name is already the name that is used throughout the article and, indeed, throughout Wikipedia wherever this place is referenced.Hoops gza (talk) 14:23, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:29, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Is there something else I'm supposed to do with this?Hoops gza (talk) 17:48, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

You wait the required waiting period, and someone will come around and determine what the consensus is, from the volunteers at WP:RM. If it is not closed in about two weeks, you can prod for a response at WT:RM. 65.93.12.101 (talk) 21:43, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Chelmno Gas Van.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Needs reorganization

The article needs reorganization about operations and dates, as much information is repeated, in some cases up to three times, and it gets confusing. Parkwells (talk) 15:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

SS-Unterscharfuehrer

"not to be confused with the camp's SS-Unterscharfuehrer..."

That's a corporal. Although it sounds very important with the word fuehrer, was there only one SS-Unterscharfuehrer in the camp? פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 20:42, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Article structure

When an article like this is expanded by dozens of volunteers who don't have time to read what has already been written, what happens is that at least 30% of the material gets repeated almost word for word between sources and paragraphs. Further reading becomes increasingly harder until we reach a virtual stop point, where nothing new is being said anymore. I suggest removing section Testimonies altogether, and incorporating only a few selected paragraphs in the actual chronological description of the camp operation. Any objections to that? Poeticbent talk 00:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

How many times can you say the same thing?

1. At "the palace" they were stripped of possessions, transferred to vans, and gassed to death with the exhaust fumes on the way to the burial pits (section "Deportations begin")
2. When they had undressed they were sent to the cellar of the castle and then along a passageway on to the ramp and from there into the gas-van ... When the lorries were full of people, the double doors at the back were closed
3. the victims were taken to the cellar and across the ramp into the back of a gas van holding from 50-70 people each ... When the van was full, the doors were shut and the engine started (section "Killing process")

And so on, Poeticbent talk 03:15, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Why the Polish name?

This was a German operation, why not use the German name? Anmccaff (talk) 05:56, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, the extermination camp was Nazi German (ain't no doubt about it), but Chełmno is a living city with 20,000 inhabitants. The operation was not called Chełmno, the town of Chełmno was known in the German language as Kulmhof in those days, Poeticbent talk 15:19, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm aware of the history. Kulmhof/Chełmno was a place with a German name used before and during the period, and was in an area which had been incorporated into the Reich. The parallel with Auschwitz is pretty strong, at least in terms of name. On the other hand, the post-war trials may have fixed Chełmno's name to it. Anmccaff (talk) 15:45, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

PS, just to be explicit, I think the name of the article should reflect the German name. Anmccaff (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I hear you. Auschwitz was a German endonym whereas Birkenau complex was built from scratch like a city within the city. – This was not Oświęcim town, but rather an operation, like you say. – Please take a look at a long discussion which resulted in setting up a more generalized approach to naming the camps with the use of Polish diacritics; at Talk:Sobibór extermination camp#Requested move. Get back to me on that. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 14:52, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Also, we need to stick to WP:COMMONNAME guidelines. Here are the Google search results with Kulmhof as the distant last possible option in terms of overall numbers.

1. "Chelmno extermination camp" 12,400 results (0.42 seconds)
2. "Chełmno extermination camp" 4,320 results (0.33 seconds)
3. "Kulmhof extermination camp" 79 results (0.39 seconds) [2]

Poeticbent talk 16:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm sure you noticed that, even among the books, a depressing amount of those references were circular back to wiki itself. Speaking of depressing, that naming discussion linked to above looks like a parody of What is Wrong with Wikipedia. This is supposed to represent the consensus of good scholarly or expert information; a Google-dredge often gives anything but that. Not meant against you, or most of the other participants, but I once made several hundred Google hits disappear just by correcting a poor OCR-derived WikiQuote, and I just recently saw some loon in Germany create 400 just by misnaming a Wiki page. Numbers on a google search mean very little in a scholarly context, even for "common names. Anmccaff (talk) 17:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I was just trying to help you make a convincing argument, but we're not there yet. Kulmhof was no Birkenau in terms of its minimal infrastructure. Only the gas vans were driving through town back and forth between the prewar manor house and the nearby forest. The town was called Kulm in the German language; but it was known as Chełmno long before the Thirteen Years' War. Today, even the German writers themselves refer to the camp using its current wikt:toponym, i.e.: Das ehemalige Vernichtungslager Chełmno [3] Good enough for me, Poeticbent talk 18:33, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, German bloggers might; despite the name, that's an (admitted) one-woman show, which bears a great deal of resemblance to several other sites, right down to the choice of photos, IMS. Most towns in Mitteleurope have at least two names, some merely phonetic variants, but some with radically different etymologies, and sometimes with different connotations. The names sometimes have run in parallel for centuries, and I believe Kulmh(of)/Chełmno was one of these. Anmccaff (talk) 20:23, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I realize, it is completely wrong to say it the way that German blogger did in the German language. It was the Vernichtungslager Kulmhof in Chełmno, not the Vernichtungslager Chełmno... In English we would say the Extermination Camp in Chełmno or the Kulmhof Extermination Camp in the town of Chełmno. Once you put Chełmno in front however, it looks different and is more-less acceptable. Poeticbent talk 13:46, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

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Greater Poland Voivodeship

I added a link to Greater Poland Voivodeship, which is the name for the area in modern times. Hopefully this is not seen as inappropriate, since of course the camp had nothing to do with the Polish state. It is just meant for people who might be familiar with modern Polish geography but not the older names for the area. Roches (talk) 10:56, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Is not. Xx236 (talk) 09:38, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Controversial geography in the lead

The city of Łódź was renamed to Litzmannstadt, Warthegau wasn't the same as the contemporary województwo.Xx236 (talk) 09:41, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

The camp was named Kulmhof, not Chełmno.Xx236 (talk) 12:06, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Please see WP:COMMONNAME. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:29, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Waldlager - Has this/these camps been forensically researched. Buried bodies in such a known local would be easy to find. 2601:181:8301:4510:5053:E756:CA34:4582 (talk) 00:48, 28 June 2018 (UTC)