Talk:Brokeback Mountain

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Blockquote removed

I've removed a blockquote from sex educator Amy Andre as non-RS. The quote purportedly is from American Sexuality Magazine, which no longer exists and does not appear to have left an archive online, and there's nothing about her or this article at CREGS, which absorbed the National Sexuality Research Center, which published the magazine. The cached link did not mention the magazine, and said solely that it was published by the NSRC, the successor organization of which has no record of it or her. She's just a blogger with no WIkipedia article about her, and by definition, that is non-RS. Surely, with all that's been written about the movie, some notable author / educator has written something thoughtful about it. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:33, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Brokeback Mountain/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Aircorn (talk · contribs) 02:24, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Willing to take this on in the next few days. Can I just confirm that Lizzy150 is free to answer any queries? AIRcorn (talk) 02:24, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks, I look forward to your review! L150 12:40, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Cool. Never seen the movie (but obviously heard all about it) so will be coming from that perspective.

Comments

• Jack broaches the subject of creating a life with Ennis on a small ranch, but Ennis, haunted by a childhood memory of the torture and murder of two men suspected of homosexual behavior as well as unwilling to abandon his family, refuses. This sentence is a little awkward.
  • Y correction made
• The plot is a little long and too detailed. As someone who has not seen the movie I would suggest cutting alot of the minor detail. For example why mention Cassie Cartwright or even Randall? Conversely there are some things that could probably be explained better. For example Brokeback mountain is not mentioned until near the end and the significance of the blood stained shirt is not really given proper attention. I don't get the significance of "Jack, I swear" which I should if it is chosen as quote to put in. It could really be tightened up (see Wikipedia:How to write a plot summary).
  • Y revised - I've mentioned Brokeback at the beginning. I think Cassie and Randall does need a small mention to show that Ennis and Jack had their minds elsewhere. Ennis' bloodstained shirt was taken by Jack (off-screen), as a memorabilia in case he couldn't see Ennis again. The blood is probably insignificant, but keeping the shirt shows the love for him. I've removed the "Jack, I swear" quote; it is for the viewer to interpret its meaning (eg. Jack, I swear I love you)
    • Great. Much better. AIRcorn (talk) 22:34, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
• Cast is a bit light, especially considering the two main characters have their own articles. Arguably they should be merged here, but that is not a GA issue.
  • Y expanded cast with 4 roles
    • I really meant expanding the description of the two main characters. The trouble with a list is that it gives everyone the same weight. I am not to bothered about the other supporting characters being in a list, but we need at least a little detail about Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar. AIRcorn (talk) 22:34, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
• It might be good idea to say Ossana is a screen writer. reading it it appears that just her partner is the writer.
  • Y added
• Not a big fan of quoting individual or even a couple of words unless they are important. I think masterpiece and exceptionally fine don't need to be quoted and there are multiple others throughout. It tends to break the flow when reading
  • Y I have removed and/or paraphrased quotes. I kept 'masterpiece' though because he did say that, and I should avoid puffery from my side
• Bit lost on the timeline in the second development paragraph. It says by 2003 he was wrecked and Brokeback brought him back, but it then seems to suggest he tried to make it before finishing Hulk. It also seems to imply it was shown to him at two different times
  • Y revised this paragraph now, hope it's clearer
• I feel there is too much reliance on quoting in general. If possible I would look at reducing it to where it is needed or gives the most impact. Long quotes in particular can be hard to parse.
  • Y I have removed and/or paraphrased quotes. I kept some because it gives the article some 'life', but did try to strike a balance
• Gyllenhaal also reacted to the script positively; when he discovered that Lee and friend Ledger were attached to the project, Gyllenhaal signed on. This makes it sound like the main reason he signed on was because of Lee and Ledger. Is this correct. Also isn't the comma superfluous?
  • Y It's more like 50/50; he liked the script but also didn't want to miss the opportunity working with them - which I've added
• a masculine and homophobic character If this is the case it probably should be brought up in the plot section somehow
  • This is Ledger's interpretation of the character; Ennis is the reluctant one but he's not literally 'homophobic'. I'm tempted to avoid using these terms in the plot as it's up to the viewer to decide
• To prepare, Ledger researched his character's personal traits, Wyoming and Texas accents This doesn't make sense to me. Do you mean personal traits plus Wyoming and Texas accents?
  • Y revised
• She was wearing a ball gown and hairpiece "that was way over the top", but still felt "centred and focused". The hairpiece was centered and focused or she was?
  • Y revised
• The fictional "Brokeback Mountain" was named to suggest a physical feature, after a term usedor a swaybacked horse or mule. Not sure what is meant by "to suggest a physical feature"?
  • Y I've removed this from the filming section as it's irrelevant here
• Initially, Alberta's environmental department prohibited the crew from bringing domestic sheep into the country I don't think this is true. Canada has sheep, it seems they didn't want the sheep in the Rockies.
  • Y You're right, corrected now
• You start a paragraph on the sex scenes and then segue into a house scene with an observation on Gyllenhaals acting style in between. It is a bit disconnected. The section itself feels a little uneven. I would have thought the sex scenes deserved a bit more of a mention, but it only gets a short sentence, yet we have anecdotes about sheep not drinking running water and details of the type of trailers used.
  • Y Made some revisions to this section, and added some details of post-production. There wasn't much info about the intimate scenes but I tried to keep relevant details in one paragraph. I've removed the trivial 'sheep not drinking water'.
• Over the Christmas weekend, and beginning of January 2006, film expanded into more domestic theaters. Grammar
  • Y corrected
• Do we need to repeat the year for each release?
  • Y corrected
• The Miller and Quaid paragraph is covering two different topics
  • Y revised - also I created a sub-heading called 'Legal issues' to house this
• A lot of quotes in the critical response section. I do find it well compiled though.
  • Y revised - quite a few quotes paraphrased now
• falsely accusing him of a repellent form of bigotry". Not clear what they accused him of?
  • Y I've removed this bit as I think it's irrelevant to the film's critical response
• Brokeback Mountain was listed on the following notable critics' top-ten lists. Should clarify that this is 2005 lists. The list is very American centric. I am actually not sure the list itself is due. Maybe better to add it too the paragraph above and say something along the lines that it was the top ranked film of 2005 by .........
  • Y I mentioned it's 2005, and from American critics, as per source. Is this enough?
• Is there a better heading than discussion? That is a little vague especially as the discussion is focused on one aspect
  • Y heading revised
• Audiences and the cast and crew disagreed as to whether the film's two protagonists were homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, or should be free of any sexual orientation classification. I am not sure audiences disagreeing is notable. They tend to disagree on a lot of films. Maybe critics?
  • Y It was "reviewers and critics" before, so I've changed it to 'critics'
• River Road Entertainment is mentioned in the lead, but not the body.
  • Y Now mentioned them under 'Development'
• Anna Faris and Linda Cardellini are barely mentioned in text. Should they be in the infobox.
  • Y Removed from infobox
• Same with Geraldine Peroni and Dylan Tichenor
  • Y these film editors are now mentioned in the body under Filming
• Images seem fine

@Lizzy150: I think this covers most things. Don't feel like you have to do everything I have suggested (although I do appreciate replies to any points I make, even if it is just to disagree with them). Ping or drop a talk page note when you are ready for me to have another look at it or you want further clarification. AIRcorn (talk) 05:27, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Other changes look great. Let me know what you think about adding some more info on Jack and Ennis to the cast section. AIRcorn (talk) 22:42, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Aircorn, Oh I see, I've added a sentence each for the two lead characters. They do, as you say, have individual articles.. so hopefully the details here are sufficient. Thanks again. LM150 20:53, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Hey Lizzy. I think some more would be great. Maybe expanding on their sexuality. Saying that I think what we have got here meets the GA criteria and the rest of the article is excellent so I am going to pass it. Sorry I got delayed and congratulations on another GA. AIRcorn (talk) 07:15, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

User:KyleJoan opines that I added unnecessary detail

And while I understand that Ennis taking his time to smell two shirts deserves a whole sentence in a plot summary for this particular film, I don't think it is appropriate to impose a synopsis policy wherein extremely detailed plot descriptions such as the aforementioned one have to coexist with extremely vague and superficial ones that offer next to no explanation on

• why Jack and Ennis end up sharing a tent in the first place,
• why Jack found it so easy to distance himself from his wife and her family,
• and why Lureen's explanation of Jack's death was mechanical and nonchalant enough to justify the possibility of what Ennis imagines instead.

I wrote what I thought was an approximation to the above points without engaging in speculation or original research (btw Ennis does visualize a homophobic murder because he'd already seen the aftermath of one as a kid, I'm surprised this has to be explained further). So I'd like to know why a word count slightly larger than 700 has warranted a wholesale reversion. AnyDosMilVint (talk) 11:02, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Another user reverted homophobic murder, so I was not alone in that. We hear Ennis tell a story about his childhood memory and later see an unrelated montage in which he envisions Jack being murdered violently without context. While I share your view that the two points are related, the possible homophobic aspect of Ennis's imagination of Jack's death remains a subjective interpretation. Jack and Ennis share a tent because they work on the mountain together. Whoever does whatever makes no difference in how they end up in the tent. The plot does not highlight Jack distancing himself. Lureen's parents almost have nothing to do with Jack's arc with Ennis. Lureen's manner of relaying Jack's death being a factor in whether our interpretation of Ennis's suspicion could be true is once again more POV than plot-related. KyleJoan^talk 12:12, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

The fact that another user reverted homophobic murder does not make it right. If Ennis envisioned Jack's death as an output of anything other than homophobia then it would have not made sense to materialize his thoughts onscreen because they're not relevant to the plot -- as opposed to the fight Ennis himself picks with a stranger which does make sense, because Ennis does have a history, shown onscreen, of venting his frustrations violently. The rules of economy dictate that if Ennis does not believe Lureen's story and imagines a violent death, it will connect directly to his own childhood memory. This should be obvious to anyone who understood the film and has an inkling of visual syntax. Like I said, I'm surprised this needs an explanation.

Jack and Ennis share a tent because they have to that particular night, but Aguirre's arrangement made it theoretically possible for them not to spend one single night in the same tent during the entire summer, and the fact they do share said tent is thus exceptional (and could have even been subconsciously orchestrated by one or both men, although that is speculative). Hence the explanation which made the plot synopsis more complete.

The plot not only highlights Jack distancing himself due to her parents, but even shows the only instance where he loses his temper at someone (other than Ennis) face to face. It also fuels his wish to move in with Ennis even further.

Calling Lureen's delivery "perfunctory" is short, precise, faithful and aseptic enough to warrant an inclusion in the text without going further into why it is perfunctory. I find it more speculative to assume Jack is "implied to" have an affair with Randall Malone (an affair I agree does happen, but is not shown in camera) than to define Lureen's tone for what it is.

All in all your arguments seem to be weak and mostly formed by opinions passing as logical conclusions. I'd like to see a bit more substance and structure to your argumentative strategy before taking this to the WikiProject Film forum which I guess I'll eventually do. AnyDosMilVint (talk) 15:56, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Too long; didn't read. Feel free to take this to WikiProject Film now if you'd like. KyleJoan^talk 23:54, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm sure you didn't. Will do. AnyDosMilVint (talk) 08:43, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

When I look at the differences between what I believe to be the two most recent versions that you both preferred, I'm left feeling that the shorter version is generally better than the longer one. I don't think it's necessary to spell things out to the reader to the degree the longer summary does. For instance, readers don't need to know what the designated sleeping arrangements are (especially that they switch who's going up to the mountain), nor is Jack's relationship with Lureen's father especially pertinent (BTW 'stepfather' should be 'father-in-law' in any case).

It's not explicitly clear that Ennis imagines Jack being murdered due to homophobia (though it's likely); I also wonder whether we really need to spell that out in any case given the context. I don't really mind if Lureen's description of events is described as perfunctory, though I wonder whether that's making implications that we shouldn't be making (i.e. there could be various reasons why Lureen's delivery is perfunctory...among them, that she's traumatized by his passing).

Hope this is helpful. DonIago (talk) 17:32, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

DonIago, the sleeping arrangements are relevant because they end up sleeping in the same tent, and they had no need to. This is more important than might seem at first. Aguirre had made it very clear that one of them was supposed to sleep in the mountain and the other one in the camp grounds. Whether this was a result of Aguirre's pragmatism in optimizing the efforts of the two herders to ward off predators, or rather pragmatism mixed with the empirical knowledge that two men sleeping together for months are likely to end up in situations such as the one shown in the film, is something that can only be speculated on. But the truth is that sleeping together in the tent was an anomaly, per the instructions given to them, and had two unexpected consequences: the sexual relationship between the two men, and the death of a sheep.

Indeed I meant father-in-law (a consequence of hasty writing and English being my third language).

That his father-in-law treated him practically like a farm hand and disapproved of the marriage is important because it feeds that grey zone prevalent in the film where secondary characters seem to glean the two men's repressed sexuality and react adversely towards them. In the case of his father-in-law, it also gives Twist an additional reason to want to end his sham marriage.

Nothing is explicitly clear, but if Ennis had imagined something so specific (Twist being ambushed in a field and beaten to death with something resembling a tire iron, exactly like the murder whose aftermath he was shown as a child) the only logical explanation is that he imagines it to be homophobic just like the one in his childhood memory. There is nothing in Jack's onscreen life to suggest he might find himself at the receiving end of such treatment, other than his repressed sexuality, and that is the only reason there can be for the inclusion of that scene. I need to insist this shouldn't even be controversial. I'm actually quite surprised that anyone argues against this.

Also User:KyleJoan has not successfully addressed the lack of weight balance in this text. Scenes near the end that are emotional but very short seem to deserve several sentences, whereas the entire first 1/4 of the film (which is equally important, albeit in a more understated way) is dispatched in a sentence or two. I consider this to be shoddy writing. AnyDosMilVint (talk) 18:08, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

We don't write plot summaries based on our interpretation of what the only reason ... for the inclusion of that scene is. We simply write what transpires. You never mentioned lack of weight balance, so it's news to me that this is suddenly an issue. Regarding shoddy writing, you can take that up with the GA nominator and reviewer that ensured this article met the GA criteria. I'm sure they'll appreciate the compliment. KyleJoan^talk 18:19, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

For the time being I've taken it to where I had originally intended to take it, so more eyes are going to read this and that's all I ask. Glad to know my arguments are no longer Wikipedia:Too long; didn't read but I don't really think there is a sound reason why I should address you directly any further, I said everything I had to say to you. AnyDosMilVint (talk) 18:26, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate your taking the time to elucidate your concerns, but for myself, I don't find them a persuasive argument for expanding the summary to the degree that your previous edits did. Other editors may disagree, and you're welcome to ask for additional opinions at WT:FILM or by following other dispute resolution options if you'd like. My opinion isn't the end of the story. Cheers! DonIago (talk) 18:26, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Nobody's opinion is the end of the story. I've taken it to WT:FILM and the more users are attracted to this discussion, the easier it will be to know where the center of gravity lies. Thanks for your input anyway! AnyDosMilVint (talk) 18:41, 11 February 2022 (UTC)