Talk:British nobility

Irish nobility

I'm aware this topic has been raised in a another discussion on this page, however this was many years ago and I would like to be more direct here.

Why is Irish nobility being mentioned in an article about British nobility? Irish people are not, and never have been, British. Irish systems predate their British counterparts by arguably a thousand a years or more. Any links between the the Irish and British nobility does not change the fact that Irish nobility does not fall under the category of "British". Even without that, there is a simple case here of the content within the article not reflecting upon the title of the page. I would strongly suggest removing the section of Irish people altogether, however if other editors provide solid reasoning and insist on keeping it, I would, at the very least, suggest changing the name of the article. Iamdmonah (talk) 00:56, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Many Irish people do consider themselves to be British. Sthellier (talk) 12:22, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Ireland was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland from 1801 to 1922. The Irish were British subjects. Dimadick (talk) 14:24, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

The fact Ireland was under British rule and were considered "British subjects" does not change the fact that they are not British (even without the fact it was entirely against the will of the Irish). Also, note the current year: 2022, not 1922 when the Irish people were last considered "British subjects". "British" refers to people and things related to the island of Britain, which Ireland has nothing to do with. Furthermore, the section on Irish history largely refers to the Gaelic nobility which, as mentioned in the article, was effectively removed at the start of the 17th century, a full 200 years before the Acts of Union (1801) came into effect. The articles content refers to pre-1600 history which you are attempting to place within the historical period of 1801-1922. To put it plainly, these people are Irish and they are being put under the label "British" which is simply incorrect, when one considers basic geography. Iamdmonah (talk) 00:34, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

"which you are attempting to place within the historical period of 1801-1922" Come again? I didn't add them to the article in the first place. But it is hard to overlook that the Irish were part of the Kingdom. And by the way, most of the English, Scottish, and Welsh people were both neither asked to consent to a union, nor did they have voting rights. I don't see the Irish as particularly special in that oligarchy. Dimadick (talk) 09:02, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the Irish (in Southern Ireland) were considered British Subjects until 1948, when the republic was declared. British also refers to the British Isles, not just the island of Great Britain. Sthellier (talk) 12:30, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I do feel that discussion of Gaelic nobility is misplaced in this article as it seems these never had legal status within the the English/British governing system. In other words, it may have been Irish nobility but it was British nobility. We see that the English controlled Irish governments established their own system of Irish peerage and knighthood that appears to have replaced the older Gailic nobility. Ltwin (talk) 01:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

The English, Irish, Scots and Welsh are so intertwined that trying to draw arbitrary distinctions is very difficult. There was, and is an overlap between the Gaelic chiefs and the peerage, as demonstrated by the example of Lord Inchiquin. Sthellier (talk) 11:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

All British armigers are noble

The class that is equivalent to the nobility of the Continent consists of all British armigers. It has been confirmed and ruled several times that a grant of arms is in fact a grant of hereditary nobility. Nobility associations, especially CILANE, and the Order of Malta all see untitled armigers as belonging to the British nobility. Innes of Learney was NOT the only person to stress this.

Arms - armigerousness confers the rank of Gentleman - are the lowest common denominator of British nobility. Any male-line descendant of a Peer, Baronet or Knight is at least a Gentleman. Life peerages and Knighthoods are in fact grants of hereditary nobility, at least if the grantee obtains armorial bearings.

Feudal titles are nowadays regarded mostly not as having an ennobling quality themselves, but rather as augmentations of nobility - i.e. if you are a Gentleman and you purchase a Lordship of the Manor you become an Esquire, and Scottish Feudal Barons could be classified as a higher order of Esquires. Artem Wiktorowitsch Nazarov (talk) 22:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

the naming of dukes

Dukes were originally named after counties, the earliest one being Duke of Cornwall (1337) followed by Duke of Norfolk (1483) and Duke of Somerset (1547).

But between Cornwall and Norfolk are Lancaster, Clarence, York, Gloucester, Hereford, Exeter, Surrey. One of these is a county; five are a county town and/or a county's eponymous city; and … well, we're not sure what Clarence is. Suggest rephrasing this sentence. —Tamfang (talk) 03:13, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@Tamfang, if I'm not mistaken Clarence is a reference to the de Clare family, which was connected to the royal family by marriage. Ltwin (talk) 04:52, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

It's certainly not a county, anyway. —Tamfang (talk) 22:10, 13 July 2023 (UTC)