Talk:2024 Haitian jailbreak

Title

@Staraction: Shouldn't the title here remain more specific? This page is just about the jailbreak and the general topic is covered at Gang war in Haiti. Elli (talk | contribs) 05:01, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree! This page was supposed to cover more, but I updated Gang war in Haiti more thoroughly instead. I think having a specific title here would work best! Staraction (talk | contribs) 05:07, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Staraction: alright, I've moved it back to a more specific title. Thanks for your work on this btw :) Elli (talk | contribs) 05:09, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Of course :) Staraction (talk | contribs) 05:10, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I feel like this article is best to cover the overall outbreak of violence- the outbreak of violence is more notable currently than just the jailbreak, especially as the Haitian airport is being attacked and may be overrun soon. The jails weren't the targets of the gangs- if there was a single, primary objective, it'd be the airport in Port-au-Prince, considering how Cherizier had spoken of preventing Ariel Henry from returning to Haiti.

The original title and scope of the article should remain, especially considering how things like the airport attack and bank attacks are being covered in this article now - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 11:42, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I was wrong, not bank attacks, but the airport attacks are covered still - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 11:42, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

If the article is significantly expanded to include these topics, then I believe it would be best to rename it again - however those topics right now are essentially a tangent. Staraction (talk | contribs) 21:21, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I feel like we should change it to battle of Port-Au-Prince, or Haitin Coup Attempt 12.133.76.18 (talk) 18:55, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

We should change it to the specific event since this is a coup attempt and battle for the city, it's no longer a random bit of violence's

Photos

Can we please add a map of gang control in Haiti? or have some visualization, I feel as if this is a very important event and to have no photos really does it a disservice 12.133.76.18 (talk) 18:51, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Adding new flag to represent haitian gangs

https://twitter.com/NWElSalvador/status/1765794986421841981/photo/2, so I saw this photo from AP and it appears Gangs in Haiti are using this symbol to represent their cause, can we change their flag to this? 12.133.76.18 (talk) 17:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 8 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Although this discussion was an RM, a relatively small fraction of the discussion pertained to titling; instead, the discussion was primarily a question of how the article should be scoped. At the time of the initial RM proposal, the article scope included not just the jailbreak itself but a broader discussion of the increase in gang violence in Haiti in 2024. The proposed RM therefore attracted appreciable support on the grounds that the proposal would move to a title that more accurately described the article's current scope. However, while the RM was open, much of the material that was unrelated to the jailbreak was removed from the article. The removal was carried out by a participant in the RM, so I'm sensitive to WP:FAIT concerns here – that said, the removal has also persisted with no apparent controversy for over a month, and it does still render moot the earlier arguments about retaining the existing scope of the article.

In sum, this RM has now been open for nearly two months; the opinions presented have been split, and many of them were based on a version of the article that has limited similarity to the current form. In this situation, I find it impossible to identify a consensus in either direction. For editors interested in this topic area, the following questions may be helpful for determining a path forward: Should this jailbreak have an article separate from the increase in gang violence in 2024? Should either or both topics have their own articles at all, or should they be merged into other topics such as Gang war in Haiti or Haitian crisis (2018–present)? Once those questions have been resolved, a follow-up discussion on titling may prove more fruitful. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

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2024 Haitian jailbreak → 2024 gang violence in Haiti – Discussion also previously occurred at Talk:2024 Haitian jailbreak#Title without a move request; the scope of the article has expanded to beyond the initial jailbreak, also covering its other effects. Staraction (talk | contribs) 03:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 17:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose this as a rescoping; this should stay focused on the jailbreaks while covering the overall conflict at Gang war in Haiti (further articles could be spun out of that if necessary). Elli (talk | contribs) 20:40, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

  Is there a way the contents of this article can be transferred to a new article? Should a new article simply be created with the requested name & contents?

  Thanks for the help & advice :) Staraction (talk | contribs) 23:48, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

  I'm really not sure what your goal is here? Elli (talk | contribs) 01:12, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per above. PARAKANYAA (talk) 21:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Gang war in Haiti exists and covers some of this territory. Secretlondon (talk) 08:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose for above reasons. There is already Gang war in Haiti; that article is the appropriate place for the gang violence of 2024. Alternatively, maybe a separate article could be created for the events of this year specifically. But I don't think it's appropriate to rename and reframe this article, which covers a single, notable event. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 18:16, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Support- not only are the jailbreaks not nearly as significant in the uptick of violence as a whole, but the current title contradicts the existing scope of the article.

The uptick in violence is notable as a new phase of the existing gang war, and it would be much less of a hassle to just rename this article to 2024 gang violence in Haiti, as that is the scope of the article already (a small minority of the article focuses on the jailbreaks), than to keep this article focused on jailbreaks that only briefly got attention, and then to make a whole new article about the uptick in violence as a whole.

The jailbreaks have faded out of news attention and very likely won't be seen as the main action in this fighting in the future- there's no reason to keep the article focused on that topic - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 15:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to note that in the Events section of the article, exactly four sentences were dedicated to jailbreaks by the gangs, while the rest of the section was dedicated to other gang violence. It's clear that the scope of this article is the uptick in gang violence as a whole, rather than cutting this article down to a very small article on the jailbreaks and having to make a whole new article on the topic - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 15:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Support changing the title, but I would prefer "2024 Haitian political crisis" instead because the gang violence has contributed to Ariel Henry resigning after being unable to land his plane (he's currently in Puerto Rico). JohnAdams1800 (talk) 01:44, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I support this because the jail break is all connected to the ongoing political crisis.  Port-au-princien (talk) 20:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Support - The proposed title is reflecting the current state of the article. Either we change the name or delete half the page. TheAwesomeAtom (talk) 18:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Support: Per Presidentofyes12, in full. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 03:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Merge to Gang war in Haiti. It is clear that this article has grown wildly out of its original scope and currently covers all violence post-February 28th. Most of the info covered here fits way more in the parent article, why not just merge?ZionniThePeruser (talk) 04:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Comment I propose the following title: 2024 Haitian gang unrest KamilaF89 (talk) 19:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Comment There is a chance western sources may be attempting to put a particular spin on this event (Particularly the cannibalism claims) in an attempt to justify military invervention/occuptation of Haiti. She's gone through enough already. I suggest entertaining the idea of a "Misinformation" section as the dust settles. Vladimir Hunter (talk) 23:41, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Good idea but a bit off-topic, no? ZionniThePeruser (talk) 00:27, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

That sort of thing is never off topic... but yeah, kinda.

I thought being that we're discussing a page title for a political event involving a nation full of people that definitely aren't white and don't ally themselves on the western axis, we should be wary for otherwise reliable sources pushing narratives in bad faith. Vladimir Hunter (talk) 02:56, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

If misinformation does become prevalent enough to warrant such a section, then, yeah, but not for the reasons you give. I wish not to delve into US foreign policy but I must say that the US has shown no interest in intervention at all, and we shouldn't assume that they're going to exaggerate what's going on in Haiti with the purpose of establishing an intervention force. Atm I haven't seen that much proven misinformation on the conflict anyways so it's not very necessary atm - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 22:03, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll respect your leaving out US/European foreign policy beyond what I already mentioned, I hope you're right that they don't intent to intervene but the climate these days isn't assuring. Vladimir Hunter (talk) 03:31, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Support a move but not sure if the proposed title is the best option for an article essentially devoted to events pre and post resignation of Ariel Henry and ensuing political turmoil. Yeoutie (talk) 15:49, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, WikiProject Law Enforcement, WikiProject Politics, WikiProject Haiti, and WikiProject Current events have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: should stay focused on the prison break, there are already articles about the Haitian crisis (2018–present) and the Gang war in Haiti. Everything unrelated to the prison break should be deleted. There is enough to say about this, IMO, for a stand-alone page. A short summary would be welcome in both parent articles. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 21:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose This article should remain being exclusively about the jailbreak crisis as there's more than enough significant coverage to warrant its own dedicated article. Maybe the proposed title could be used for a separate article detailing on the surge of violence this year but a page move is rather inappropriate given how this is about a singular event and not a series of them. SuperSkaterDude45 (talk) 01:54, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Support changing this article to one documenting the larger outbreak of protests, but another page focusing on the jailbreak needs to be created as well. Jebiguess (talk) 17:11, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Merge Car234 (talk) 14:31, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support a more generic name including the proposal or "2024 Haitian political crisis" also proposed above. The article includes non-jailbreak topics like the airport attack and Henry's eventual resignation. Is the jailbreak independent of these other topics? Consigned (talk) 18:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I've requested closure for this at Wikipedia:Closure requests. Natg 19 (talk) 05:01, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cannibalism

There is [1]at least one video floating around in X (formerly Twitter) that shows Haitian gang members engaging in cannibalism. I think the page should be updated to reflect this. 114.160.47.206 (talk) 00:14, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Video does not confirm what gang this is, nor when this was taken,

We can not add it in as of now, however, the misinformation thread can be updated to show conflicting reports 12.133.76.18 (talk) 18:43, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Should we watch for the possibility of propoganda in western sources?

https://twitter.com/jasonjamesbnn/status/1769742582643572858

I understand twitter isn't a good source per say, but considering the content of the tweet and my personal experiences, I feel we should consider the possibilty western sources are putting a spin on the current haiti situation as an excuse to justify military invervention

In short, I feel we should challenge some of the "Big" sources with sources that are generally critical of western imperialism, as they would shed light on different aspects of this chaos. Vladimir Hunter (talk) 21:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we should base our understanding of the conflict through the lens of a tweet by some looney whose entire shtick seems to be peddling conspiracies over trusted journalism. The only "news" organizations claiming US imperialism in Haiti in this conflict are heavily biased such as The Real News Network and Counterfire; they should seldom be trusted. Jebiguess (talk) 21:03, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I think simply calling twitter an unreliabe source is enough. Calling people lunatics is alot.

A few decades ago, Jim Crow actors were "Trusted officials", the Ku Klux Klan was a club of "Good, god fearing men", and nazi propoganda was "Trusted journalism"

A few decades later I can promise you a majority of countries and sources peddled as "Reliable" and "Unbiase" by most will be outed similarly. It's better we use our brains than peddle ideas. Vladimir Hunter (talk) 21:25, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

At the moment, almost every major news source - especially Haitians themselves - have not mentioned heavy American goals or involvement in fueling the conflict. The only American interference seems to be taking their nationals out of the country and helping establish a transitional council with Caricom and the UN. Those dispelling the myths of some big Western bias towards the gangs seem to just be far-left and far-right Twitter accounts with no real journalistic experience. Haitians on the ground, like this report by the RNDDH, I would personally dub as the standard for reliable sourcing, and they report the conflict as the organized crime + civil war it is. In regards to their reporting on this conflict, established and local newspapers such as NYT, Miami Herald, WaPo, and others have proven to be much more reliable than random Twitter bluechecks. Jebiguess (talk) 17:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

The Haitian perception of U.S. involvement in Haitian politics dates back quite some time and anyone even superficially versed in the history is aware that there are significant grounds for this perception at least since the military occupation starting in 1915. I agree that we should focus on RS, and not on Twitter feeds. As for the RNDDH, those critical of it note that its funding comes from abroad (Canada, the NED, the Open Society among others), and that it has had significant turnover in recent years due to conflicts with Pierre Espérance. [2] That said, the source given here is a far-left source. There can nevertheless be no doubt whatsoever that U.S.-based gunsellers and, by extension, arms manufacturers have had an outsized influence in Haiti... cf. [3] & [4]-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 21:04, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

> no real journalistic experience

I can pull you into circles with this. But I'll just leave it at my "Nazi Propoganda" point.

I can promise you there will be a page in 25 years about how white people used this as an excuse to stick more tentacles into Haiti like they have numerous times before, as your reliable sources indicate.

I also never suggested twitter as a source. I said to consider it as an indication of more going on, and if a sources decides to bring up european imperialism in relation to this, there's no reason to exclude it. Half of the shit on the Israel bombing campaign in Palestine that's pro-israel originated from those blue checkmarks, such as the 40 beheaded babies nonsense. Vladimir Hunter (talk) 21:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)