Talk:2007 Greek legislative election

Untitled

On what basis will this be the 32nd election? There were many more elections before 1910, and it seems this number was arrived at by counting the number of elections mentioned in the infobox. THis needs to be renamed.--Damac 13:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Obviously,the author takes into consideration all the election after the Goudi Movement/coup, which is a very important turning point for Greek politics. Having said that, I agree with you, 19th century elections should be mentioned as well.--XVA 11:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the correct number is 12. The previous elections were the elections of the "kingdom of Greece" while since 1974 these are the elections of the "Hellenic Democracy". user:Panosfidis

Ridiculous move

Why the hell was this page renamed from Next Greek legislative election to Greek legislative election, 2007.

The fact is that this election must be held before March 2008. Until the government formally calls an election, everything else is pure speculation.

I'm going to formally propose that this renaming be reverted.--Damac 15:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Elections are going to be in September, so the naming is OK.. Alexhard 16:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I voiced my concerns BEFORE the announcement of the election date. The issue is now redundant.--Damac 08:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

SYN-SYRIZA

I think that as SYRIZA is the competing electoral coalition it should be mentioned alone at the header of the opinion polls. The fact that early polls counted only a part of the coalition (SYN) can be accommodated with a footnote. Thoughts? --Michalis Famelis (talk) 19:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your idea. Magioladitis 00:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

So, I implemented it (although I forgot to sign in). :-) --Michalis Famelis (talk) 02:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Constituencies

With the election looming, I'm wondering whether it would be timely to start pages for each of the country's constituencies, as has been done for other countries (see Galway East (Dáil Éireann constituency) for example. As Greek constituencies largely conincide with the prefectures, should electoral information and lists be included in those articles (e.g. should we put lists of MPs, results, etc., into the existing Argolis article), or should there be seperate Argolis and Argolis (constituency) articles?

I'd appreciate some feedback on this. In the meantime I'm going to prepare a list of Greek constituencies.--Damac 15:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I've created the list, see List of parliamentary constituencies of Greece. All links include the qualifier constituency in brackets and link to the relevant prefectures. These redirects can be removed once constituency articles have been started.--Damac 16:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

What do people think of Kefalonia (constituency)? Can it be improved in any way?--Damac 21:57, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Damac, are you sure you want to get into documenting recent and future elections for each and every one of the ~50 constituencies? You are getting into an awfully and monstrously HUGE load of work... If you're determined, though, I'd say that the Kefalonia constituency article is quite good as a template for the rest. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 23:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I really don't think is necessary to keep record of the votes of every single candidate. -- Magioladitis 14:57, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

That's fine. Yes, it is a huge task, and I'll undertake to do the 3-4 constituencies that I'm interested in or have links with. Wikipedia has detailed election results for a number of countries (see Ireland and the UK, for example), so I don't see any reason why the same cannot or should not be done for Greece. If everyone took one a few constituencies, we'd lay the groundwork for future efforts.--Damac 15:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Smaller parties and leaders

According to some media reports, 28 parties will be constesting the elections, although not all state wide. Here's the list (in Greek):

• Νέα Δημοκρατία (Κ. Καραμανλής)
• Πανελλήνιο Σοσιαλιστικό Κίνημα (Γ. Παπανδρέου)
• Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδος (Αλέκα Παπαρήγα)
• Συνασπισμός Ριζοσπαστικής Αριστεράς (Ι. Μπανιάς, Π. Μαντάς (ΔΗΚΚΙ), Ηλ. Νικολόπουλος, Γ. Πάντζας, Ι. Χαριτόπουλος, Εμμ. Γλέζος, Ι. Θεωνάς, Π. Κοσμάς, Ροδ. Ρινάλντι, Γ. Χαλκιάς, Αλ. Αλαβάνος)
• Λαϊκός Ορθόδοξος Συναγερμός (Γ. Καρατζαφέρης)
• Δημοκρατική Αναγέννηση (Σ. Παπαθεμελής)
• Αγωνιστικό Σοσιαλιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδος (Εκτελεστική Επιτροπή: Ν. Καργόπουλος, Ν. Λεοντόπουλος, Σηφ. Στενός)
• Δημοκρατική Παγκόσμιος Ελλάς ( Στ. Κρικέλης) κατέρχεται μόνο στην Α΄ και στην Β΄Αθηνών
• Έλληνες Οικολόγοι (Δ. Βεργής)
• Εθνικό Απελευθερωτικό Μέτωπο Β. (Π. Τραϊανός)
• Ένωση Κεντρώων (Β. Λεβέντης)
• Ενωτική Αντικαπιταλιστική Αριστερά (Διοικούσα επιτροπή : Κ. Παπαδάκης, Δ. Θανασούλας, Κ. Πίττας Δ. Σαραφιανός, Γ. Παυλόπουλος)
• Ενωτικό Ριζοσπαστικό Δημοκρατικό Κίνημα (Ι. Πρωτόπαππας) κατέρχεται μόνο στο Νομό Αιτωλοακαρνανίας
• Ευρωπαϊκό Δημοκρατικό Κόμμα (Π. Κρόκος)
• Κόμμα Φιλελευθέρων (Εμμ. Καλιγιάννης)
• Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Έλλάδας (Μαρξιστικό - Λενινιστικό) (Γρ. Κωνσταντόπουλος, Β. Σαμαράς, Ηλ. Καμαρέτσος)
• Λευκό (Κ. Ντάλιος)
• Μέτωπο Ριζοσπαστικής Αριστεράς (Δ. Δεσύλλας, Γ. Δημητρίου, Θ. Κουτσουμπός, Χ. Μπίστης)
• Μαρξιστικό- Λενινιστικό (Α. Παπαδόπουλος, Π. Κουφοβασίλης)
• Νέο Κόμμα Σωτηρίας Χριστιανική Δημοκρατία (Αλκ. Στοϊλης) κατέρχεται μόνο στην Α΄ Αθηνών και στο Νομό Δράμας
• Νέος Φασισμός (Αθ. Δασκαλόπουλος)
• Οικολόγοι Εναλλακτικοί (Μ. Δερτούζος)
• Οικολόγοι Πράσινοι (Ιωάννα Κουτούλη, Αν. Κρομμύδας, Ι. Μαχαίρας, Σταμ. Μπουντούρης, Μ. Τρεμόπουλος, Ι. Χαραλαμπάκης)
• Όραμα Τοπικά Κοινοβούλια (Δ. Κατσίμπρας)
• Οργάνωση για την Ανασυγκρότηση του ΚΚΕ (Διοικούσα Επιτροπή: Η. Ζαφειρόπουλος, Ελένη Κωνσταντινοπούλου, Δ. Γουρνάς)
• Οργή Λαού με Δημοψηφίσματα - Άμεση Δημοκρατία (Γ. Κόκκας)
• Περιφερειακή Αστική Ανάπτυξη (Ν. Κολίτσης) κατέρχεται μόνο στη Β΄ Αθηνών
• Φιλελεύθερη Συμμαχία (Φ. Περλίκος)
• Φως - Αλήθεια - Δικαιοσύνη (Κ. Μελισσουργός)

This might help in completing the list of parties and leaders. However, some of the parties are clearly run by collectives, mainly the leftwing ones. Which name should be included as the leader?--Damac 14:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we really have to state the leaders in all the cases. Btw, the parties are finally 22. 18 that we have in our list and 4 more that don't participate statewide. -- Magioladitis 14:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Would you mind adding the four parties not on the list, and perhaps adding a footnote (†) for those not running statewide.--Damac 15:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

ok you can check it. I think in the day of the results these 4 parties will be stated as "Others" alltogether. -- Magioladitis 16:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of opinion polls

moved this section here for discussion. I removed it from the article because is original research -- Magioladitis 14:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Of the 27 polls made in Greece during 2007, twelve of them have taken place after the announcement of the 16th September's elections. The standard deviation in such a poll (sample of 1,000-2,500 persons) whose distribution is approximated by a normal (Gauss) distribution is usually (for the two bigger parties) larger than 1.05%. The confidence interval 95% for the specific value of standard deviation is 2.05% (the corresponding values, which the companies themselves give, are larger). Assuming that the difference between the two biggest parties is the same from measurement to measurement, the distribution of the differences is a normal distribution with a standard deviation ${\sqrt {2}}*1.05=1.485$. Note that this value will be larger in the case we have different real differences from measurement to measurement. (Which is quite expected since the opinion polls are not made simultaneously). For the sample of 27 or that of 12 opinion polls that are mentioned above, we get that the standard deviation of the differences between the two biggest parties is 0.740% in the first sample and 0.494% in the second sample. These results deviate very much from the theoretic value 1.485%. Nevertheless, it is quite possible, especially for small samples like these of 27 or 12 opinion polls, to have deviations from the theoretic standard deviation. The set question we have to answer is the following: What is the probability to have the specific deviations for the specific sample numbers? It is very easy to be shown (e.g. Monte Carlo simulation) that the possibility for these deviations to be a random event is less than 0.1%. The latter result leads to the conclusion that it is almost impossible for so many opinion polls, with the specific errors they have, to provide results that are so close.

Candidates

Links with lists of candidates. Not needed anymore since we have the official announcement. -- Magioladitis 01:08, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

List of New Democracy candidates List of Panhellenic Socialist Movement candidates List of Communist Party of Greece candidates List of Coalition of the Radical Left candidates List of Popular Orthodox Rally candidates (click on Ekloges 2007) List of Union of Centrists candidates List of Radical Left Front candidates List of Communist Party of Greece (Marxist-Leninist) candidates List of United Anti-Capitalist Left candidates List of Marxist-Leninist Communist Party of Greece candidates List of Fighting Socialist Party of Greece candidates List of Organization for the Reconstruction of the Communist Party of Greece candidates List of Democratic Revival candidates List of Ecologist Greens candidates List of Liberal Alliance candidates

Μερικες προτασεις

1. Θεωρω σκοπιμο να μην συμπληρωθουν τα αποτελεσματα μεχρι αυριο το μεσημερι αφου ΜΟΝΟ τοτε θα εχουμε τα ΤΕΛΙΚΑ αποτελεσματα. Αυριο το πρωι θα εχουν τυπωθει διαφορες εφημεριδες με διαφορετικα αποτελεσματα η καθε μια. Καλο ειναι να μην εμπιστευθει ο καθενας την εφημεριδα του και συμπληρωσει αποτελεσματα που δεν ειναι εγκυρα. 2. Ας διατηρηθει το ιστορικο των εκλογων (δηλαδη τα οσα γραφτηκαν στη σελιδα μεχρι σημερα. Να μην μεινουν μονο τα αποτελεσματα αλλα να μεινουν και οι δημοσκοπησεις οι λιστες των κομματων κλπ κλπ. 3. Ο πινακας αποτελεσματων να μεταφερθει ψηλοτερα στη σελιδα.user:Panosfidis —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 11:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

First, this is the English-language Wikipedia; please contribute in English. I think the page should be update as information comes in. Of course, once we get the final official results, these will be added, but in the meantime, we should mention exit polls (in a separate section) (these will be available at 7pm local time), and provisional results from the Ministry (expected at 10.30).--Damac 11:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Aftermath

We need an aftermath section with the developments in PASOK due to their (still projected) loss by 4.2 percent units difference to ND. George Andreas Papandreou announced he will ask to renew the confidence of his party members for his leadership, and Evangelos Venizelos declared "present" in this process. This is a major development in one of the two traditional "leadership parties" in Greece. NikoSilver 23:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Not that major considering it was highly expected. In fact many commentators were surprised he didn't resign right off. --Leladax 17:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll add it as it is and throw in a couple of sources. NikoSilver 23:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I've created an article on it at Panhellenic Socialist Movement leadership election, 2007. —Nightstallion 11:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks NS, I added my usual blubber there. NikoSilver 12:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Missing party

The official election website has one party which is not listed in the table here. It is abbreviated as Ανεξ. Υποψ. , but I don't know what that stands for. Can someone who knows about this party add it to the table at Template:Greek legislative election, 2007? Thanks. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

It is not a party. It is the abbreviation of "Independent candidates", meaning every unaffiliated candidate, regardless of ideology or electoral periphery User:Dimadick

Ah! Shame that they couldn't have translated that on the "English" page. (I can read the Greek alphabet, but have very little knowledge of Modern Greek.) I wonder if I'd have figured it out if it had been written out instead of abbreviated? (What is Ανεξ. Υποψ. short for?) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Αν-εξάρτη-τοι Υπο-ψήφι-οι = In-depend-ent Under-voted-fors (=candidates). NikoSilver 19:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Ευχαριστώ! —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:36, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Νά 'σαι καλά! :-) NikoSilver 20:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

"I can read the Greek alphabet, but have very little knowledge of Modern Greek." As opposed to ancient, where it surely would've been something completely different? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 01:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I studied ancient Greek in high school and college (although I've forgotten much of what I once knew). I know that the texts I read then used the modern Greek alphabet instead of the letter-forms Plato used. I was just saying that although I have enough understanding of Greek to translate "Νέα Δημοκρατία", I didn't have enough to recognize or translate the abbreviation. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Hung parliament?

One of the first paragraphs says:

The election result in combination with the new Greek electoral law gave a marginal parliamentary majority to New Democracy with 152 out of 300 parliament seats, while three more smaller parties surpassed the 3% representation threshold and entered the parliament, which could result in a hung parliament in the case where the leading party would obtain less votes.

This is a bit confusing. Since New Democracy got an (albeit quite small) majority, a hung parliament is not going to be a problem, correct? It seems that bit about the hung parliament may have been entered before the final seat counts were determined. Can we remove this reference or am I missing something? --Jfruh (talk) 19:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right, it's confusing but it's the best I could do in rewording an outdated intro. This part is the remains of the predictions before election, and should probably be moved to the "Procedure" section. What it tries to say, is that with 5 parties crossing the 3% threshold for the parliament (as was projected and as it happened), it's increasingly difficult for the leading party to have parliamentary majority. This is because the electoral law gives the votes of the parties that got less than 3% to the leading party. The opposite extreme would be to have those 3 additional parties get a -say- 2% each, so the leading party would be "gifted" an additional 6%. Can you reword it for me please? Sometimes when you know too much about something you can't explain the details, so my mind seems to be stuck right now. NikoSilver 20:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I reworked it. See what you think. --Jfruh (talk) 21:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. I'll tweak some things I may have said that could be misinterpreted. NikoSilver 21:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, but now the sentence doesn't make grammatical sense again. What specifically about the tweaked law made the hung parliament more likely? --Jfruh (talk) 21:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, re-reading your earlier comments, I see what you mean now. That's all complicated enough that we should leave it out of the lede, i think. --Jfruh (talk) 21:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I had moved it before I read your comment. Great minds think alike? :-) NikoSilver 22:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposed move

Shouldn't this be moved at 2007 Greek legislative election to avoid the use of the comma (,) in the title? NerdyNSK 13:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

No. This is now all such pages are named across Wikipedia. It's policy.--Damac 13:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Αλλες δυο προτασεις

παρατηρω οτι στις εκλογες του 2000 στον πινακα με τα κομματα συμπεριλαμβανονται τα σηματα τους. Το ιδο συμβαινει και στις εκλογες του 1996 1993 κλπ. Αντιθετως στις εκλογες του 2004 και 2007 δεν υπαρχουν τα σηματα και αντικαθιστανται απο καθετες μπαρες χρωμματων που επαναλαμβανονται. Καλο ειναι να γινει το ιδιο και στις δυο τελευταιες εκλογικες αναμετρησεις. (δειτε τους πινακες και θα καταλαβετε τι εννοω).

Επισης προτεινω να ξεκινησει η δημιουργια σελιδας με τις εκλογες του 2011.

user:Panosfidis —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 10:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

As Damac, noted above, please use English. The article is in the English language Wikipedia and at least at this point it is of Wikipedia-wide interest, as it is linked to from the main page.

For the propostal itself: The party symbols were not used in the last two election articles because the result tables have been moved to template space. The party symbols do not come under a free license (apart from the SYRIZA one, which is under a Creative Commons license) and therefore cannot be used under fair use in the Template namespace. There was a discussion about this some months ago, if you search a bit at the template pages I think you'll find it.

Personally, I think that the article looks better with the colors, rather than the symbols :-)

For the second proposal, please go on and do it: Greek legislative election, 2011. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 11:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

As Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, I've restarted the page Next Greek legislative election. Who knows, but we might have elections before 2011.--Damac 11:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Btw, if some are so inclined in using greek, help expand http://el.wiki.x.io it needs lots of work compared to this. --Leladax 07:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

ok english. You say something about free licence. But if there is licence to use them in one page then there is licence to use them in all pagees right? I have nothing against the colours but that way there are three oranges three browns and 4 blues and this is misleading.

translation: Επειδη μαλλον αυτα που εγραψα παραπανω μαλλον δεν θα βγαλετε και πολυ νοημα τα ξαναγραφω ελληνικα. Θεωρω πως αφου τα σηματα υπαρχουν σε μια σελιδα τοτε μπορουν να υπαρχουν σε ολες. Αν εχει δοθει η αδεια χρησης γενικοτερα το σημα μπορει να μπει σε οποιαδηποτε σελιδα. Δεν λεω πως ξερω τους κανονες αψογα αλλα δεν νομιζω να υπαρχει προβλημα να χρησιμοποιηθουν και εδω τα σηματα αφου χρησιμοποιουνται ηδη και σε σελιδα του ΙΔΙΟΥ ΤΥΠΟΥ. Θα μου εκανε εντυπωση αν συνεβαινε κατι τετοιο. Τωρα καποιοι προτιμουν τα χρωματα. Σεβαστο αλλα απο τη στιγμη που υπαρχουν 3 καφε 3 πορτοκαλι 2 γαλαζια 2 πρασινα το ολο θεμα ειναι παραπλανητικο οσον αφορα τον πολιτικο προσανατολισμο των κομματων. Αυτα εχω να πω τωρα αν καποιος ξερει καλυτερα την κατασταση εννοειται πως θα επικρατησει η γνωμη του απλα μου φαινεται περιεργο να υπαρχει αδεια για τις ιδιες ακριβως σελιδες για προηγουμενες εκλογες και οχι για τωρα. Panosfidis 14:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

We need the templates as the results are transcluded in a number of pages, such as Greek legislative election, 2007, Elections in 2007 and Elections in Greece.

As Michalis Famelis noted above, we cannot use these kind of logos in templates. It's a legal issue.

About the colours. Yes, it is confusing at the moment, but colours can be easily changed. Now that we've quite a few color templates for the Greek parties (see Category:Party colours templates (Greece)), we should consider creating a page similar to Category:Party_colour_templates_(Ireland).

Again, I'd remind you that this is English-language Wikipedia. If your English is not up for it, then I suggest you concentrate your efforts on Greek Wikipedia.--Damac 15:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Good golly, I just saw this thread now after having been reverted by Magioladitis for adding those logos myself! Anyway, in terms of aesthetics, I must say I liked the logos better - but this is subjective. In terms of legalese, I really don't understand why, especially given the fact that apart from the word "Template:", there's nothing to distinguish the two namespaces, or utility. We could very well include a whole other article by using its name within {{braces}} (without the word "Template:"), so I really can't see the difference. If you want to verify what I say, check that my subpage at User:NikoSilver/Mirror shows the exact content of my userpage with only half a line of code (i.e. "{{User:NikoSilver}}" - despite that it's not a template). Anyway, I won't lose my sleep over it. NikoSilver 19:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

IANAL, but it's quite simple really. We can use non-free images in Wikipedia, as long as we do so under fair use. In that case however we have to privide a fair use rationale for each and every one article where the non-free image is included so as to prove that the image does add significant information that cannot be expressed in another way. Take a look at Image:Kandinsky white.jpg for example and see WP:FURG for the relevant guideline. So, the problem with non-free images on templates is that we cannot know where the template is included and so we cannot have a comprehensive fair use rationale for the images: we don't really know where they could end up.

Again, IANAL but that's what I've understood is the case. Cheers! --Michalis Famelis (talk) 21:34, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Probably WP could solve this (quite tedious) problem, by replacing the "file links" section in the image page with one that would list transclusions (much like the "what links here" for the templates). That way we can know (easier) where the logo appears, and add a fair use rationale (or police its deletion from where inappropriate like we do with the rest). Of course, even if a template is listed in the "file links" (as it is now), we still can manually police it with just two clicks (template page, then "what links here"). Anyway, too much analysis brings paralysis, and I'm glad IANAL either... Probably this is an issue for WP:VPT or WP:VPP. NikoSilver 21:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

• The results are those of 2009!!!!!!!!!!!! Please anyone who knows correct !!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.217.219 (talk) 16:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

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