Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 August 5

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August 5

Plural form of harness

Resolved

What is the plural form of "harness" in Australian English? In this case referring to a cable harness (or loom) as in a number of wires or cables held together by lacing, cable ties or similar to be placed into a piece of electrical/electronic equipment.
Is harness' or harness's correct? --220 of ^Borg 03:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

It would not include an apostrophe since that indicates possession. In American English, it is harnesses and I have no reason to suspect that it would be any different in AusEng. Dismas|^(talk) 04:04, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Check. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2)
Yes, thanks Dismas and JackofOz. I myself 'just' (over an hour ago!) realised it's "harnesses" .
Is not an apostrophe also sometimes used alone to indicate plural with words already ending in "S" to avoid multiple esses? Can't think of an example. --220 of ^Borg 05:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

No. An apostrophe can be put at the end of a name that ends in an S to indicate possession though. For example, if Mr. Wells owns a car you could say "That is Mr. Wells' car." Some people don't like that usage though and would use "That is Mr. Wells's car." They mean the same thing but there is only one Mr. Wells. Dismas|^(talk) 05:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Then there are plural possessives: The lady mayoresses try always to keep up with the Joneses, but the Joneses' attitude to the lady mayoresses' pretentiousnesses can't be repeated in mixed company. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:43, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Pretty sure that 'plural possessives' is what I was thinking of Jack of Oz, thanks. --220 of ^Borg 14:20, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

(ec) The only thing I can think of is when a letter symbol is used as a word itself (as distinct from the spelt-out name of that letter), and is pluralised. For instance, This sentence contains 5 s's. Otherwise, it would be This sentence contains 6 esses. You have to mind your p's and q's about stuff like this, and make sure you dot your i's and cross your t's. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:36, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I think we have an article on the pluralizing apostrophe? Whoops, maybe not. Anyway, another traditional use was for the plurals of acronyms/initialisms. You'll still sometimes see this for mixed-case initialisms, where just adding a minuscule s to the end might invite the confusion that it stands for some other word. --Trovatore (talk) 05:46, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

You're looking for greengrocer's apostrophe. You see it fairly often, but it's considered wrong by basically everyone. -Elmer Clark (talk) 08:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I think that is a different usage. Nothing wrong with 5's, H's or 1990's. Rmhermen (talk) 13:26, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, what I see more often than the greengrocers' apostrophe is the reverse hypercorrection, atrocities like "girls soccer", which absolutely demand the possessive apostrophe, but people leave it out because they are too lazy to figure out the rule. --Trovatore (talk) 17:39, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Even worse Womens Soccer Team. Rmhermen (talk) 18:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

But the killer is its', the most baseless concoction in the history of language. The only possibilities are it's (an abbreviation for "it is" or "it has") and its (a possessive pronoun, the neuter counterpart of "his" and "her"). There's enough inexplicable confusion about their uses already without making up a completely new form, which on its face has no rational meaning. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't recall seeing that one often enough to be annoyed by it. --Trovatore (talk) 20:15, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I could name names, but I'll let the perpetrators reveal themselves. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:18, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks all who chipped in. As the OP of this section I declare my query has been resolved! (If anyone has missed it apostrophes are also being discussed above at Multiple apostrophes) --220 of ^Borg 14:20, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

sun and air

"The sun and air is nice", or "The sun and air are nice"? Bus stop (talk) 16:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

"Are" for two subjects. I can't really see any justification for considering "the sun and air" as a single subject ( unless it's a typo for "the son and heir"). The problem arises because one subject has a definite article and the other is just abstract air. Is there a reason for the mis-match? Dbfirs 16:26, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Bus stop: It might help to convince you if you had a noun instead of an adjective. Which makes more sense to you: "The sun and air are nice things" or "The sun and air is a nice thing"? Gabbe (talk) 17:29, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I think either way is right. You can consider these two things as separate ingredients leading to a pleasant afternoon. But you can also consider them as a combined ingredient. We know that they are separate. But that is an objective, or scientific, or rationally correct approach. But the experience of sun and air may not involve separating these things out. On an experiential level we are enjoying the warmth of sunshine and the cooling effect of a breeze. It is simply one experience. How do we put that into words? One way is to say "The sun and air is nice". Should we say "The atmosphere is nice"? That is a possibility. It (atmosphere) includes the two ingredients. But perhaps we can regard sun and air as similar to atmosphere. Bus stop (talk) 19:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

[We can say "The son and heir is nice" if the words "son" and "heir" refer to one and the same person. However, the sun and the air are not the same thing, so a plural verb is required.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC) and 19:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)]

We don't have the option within proper English speech to refer to both sun and air as one entity? Bus stop (talk) 19:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

(ec) One could emerge from one's cold, dark house into the warm sun and warm air and find oneself saying "Ah, this is nice". But that would be referencing the experience of being in the warm sun and air, not the sun and air themselves. Otherwise, one would be saying "Ah, these are nice", and that would surely elicit questions as to what the hell one were talking about. But seriously, I agree with Bus stop here. People don't analyse such an experience down into all its component elements (which could also include a gentle, warm breeze). We don't have a single word to encapsulate the total experience, so we have to enumerate at least some of the main elements. This gives the sentence the form of a plural subject, but in our minds it's a unified experience deserving of a single verb. It's only where we say "This warm air is nice but I wish it weren't blowing a 250 mph hurricane" that we treat the elements separately. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:56, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• You guys are totally missing the point. Here is how you speak about the sun and the air. μηδείς (talk) 00:38, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Chinese Pronunciation

There is a video game where Chang'e is a playable character. In the game, her name is pronounced two different ways, and it drives me insane not knowing the correct pronunciation. How is her name supposed to be pronounced? I can't read IPA, so it would help if you could provide an answer in a different fashion. 128.227.146.143 (talk) 16:40, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The IPA (without markings for tones, for which I don't have a proper font) would be [ʈʂɑŋ ʔɰʌ]. The diphthong in the second syllable can be difficult for native English speakers. Both syllables have the same tone contour: ˧˥. This tone is similar to the rising intonation used in English for a one syllable question such as "What?". Marco polo (talk) 19:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

[edit conflict] Not being a Chinese speaker, I would suggest you pronounce it as two syllables, the first "Chang" as if it was an English word and the second "e" pronounced as a schwa sound "euh" like the last syllable of "aroma" or like "eux" in French. The apostrophe tells you the letter g belongs only to the Chang not to the E. Sussexonian (talk) 19:20, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

[edit conflict] Oops. I just realized that you wrote "I can't read IPA". I thought you had written "I can read IPA". Of course, IPA is the only way to come close to accuracy in describing sounds that don't occur in the reader's own language. Based on your IP address, I will assume you are American. The closest you can get in English for the first syllable is "chahng". That is, the first syllable (chang) is pronounced as you would expect it to be pronounced in English, except the vowel is the same as the vowel used in the English word father. The second syllable is really impossible to approximate in English, but it is something like "uh". As I said above, both syllables have a rising intonation, so you might transliterate them into English something like "chahng? uh?". Marco polo (talk) 19:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I suspected that was the correct pronunciation.70.171.5.158 (talk) 06:29, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedian's experiences of Rosetta Stone software.

I was wondering what were Wikipedian's experiences of Rosetta Stone's language learning software? I need some opinions on it before purchasing this software. I appreciate any feedback! Thanks. --KuchenZimjah (talk) 18:29, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

A friend has it. It strikes me as being as useful as video flash cards. Useful for vocabulary and listening practice at a beginner/intermediate level, but not a way to start learning or comprehending a language. μηδείς (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

From what I have heard, it depends on which language you're using it for---it sounds like there's a large difference in quality across different language editions. rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:59, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

My friend had it for Russian, but was starting with a good familiarity of the basics. The unit had no online access, which it seems some units do now. I checked ebay, the best you will do is get a $500 module for $250, which is a bit of a leap. My recommendation would be not to assume you can start a new language this way, especially not your first foreign language. μηδείς (talk) 00:30, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

BTW, since the start of the school year is in September, you might look for a large public university that offers the class you want, and see if you can sit in on it, in which case all you need pay for is the books. Go directly to the professor after you attend the first day of class an ask. μηδείς (talk) 00:34, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Is that when it starts in Bhutan? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:25, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't even know if the OP wants to study Spanish. An end of summer to beginning of summer year is typical in the northern hemisphere. I am sure its' backwards in the upside-down hemisphere, But Bhutan doesn't suffer that condition. μηδείς (talk) 01:49, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Just FYI, there are free alternatives such as Duolingo and, I think, Livemocha. Dismas|^(talk) 10:30, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I could be happier

I'm aware that (some) Americans say "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less", with the former variously explained as irony or carelessness. Today I believe I heard an American say "I could be happier" when clearly the intended meaning was "I couldn't be happier". Is this also acceptable in the USA? Is general substitution of "I could" for "I couldn't" in such phrases accepted and intelligible? 86.161.61.213 (talk) 19:13, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

No. The only place where this construction commonly occurs is in the expression "I could care less." Marco polo (talk) 19:26, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

(Adding to the above, the reason these two wordings come to mean the same colloquially, is that "I could care less" implies indifference about a matter (a "shrug" so to speak) - therefore the sense it's not important. Equally "I couldn't care less" suggests the speaker pointedly feels the matter rates the lowest level of care - therefore that it wouldn't be possible for them to care less if they wanted to, as they already only care the least that they are able. Generally "I could (feel/think/do something)" doesn't carry a dismissive sense as in the first of these, which is why the colloquial word use you ask about is rare or unique. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 21:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC) )

I don't fully understand what you mean, but "I could care less" actually (literally) doesn't imply indifference. However, for some reason it has come to be used that way in the USA. My feeling is that this usage originally stems from a mishearing and/or mistaken understanding of the expression. 86.161.61.213 (talk) 22:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Another possibility is that it was intended to be heard as something like "you know, there is actually room, limited though it be, for me to care less than I do". Someone should be able to identify this rhetorical figure — not exactly irony, not exactly litotes, but somehow related to both. --Trovatore (talk) 23:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Or maybe their indifference to the matter at hand has bled over into the expression of their indifference. One is rarely passionately indifferent; usually it's just sort of indifferent indifference, requiring few if any words. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:05, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Diane: You know, the opposite of love isn't hate. It's indifference..

Sam: You know what? I don't care.

...or, maybe, simply not caring about the grammar and semantics of that expression? An interesting example of metadiscourse... No such user (talk) 15:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

That was what I was getting at with my "bled over" comment. Good one. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

In fact, that was what I was getting at with my "clever" use of "carelessness" in the original question. 86.128.6.77 (talk) 01:04, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Help to find an article, apparently in Chinese Wikipedia

I'm editing our article on Karrimor. Finding good history and cites is difficult, but I came across www.86wiki.com/view/864579.htm which says it's from "China Wikipedia", and looks like it could be a poor and mirrored translation of a Wikipedia page in another language. Similar-looking pages are at Baidu, ecconnect, chinasspp, and Baike.

They all seem to suggest a well written page with more information that I could find, exists in a different Wikipedia language - perhaps Chinese - but I can't find it. Once I have a link, I can translate to see what sources or omitted information may exist.

Any chance of help to track down a link?

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 21:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Note to editors: the first external link contains malware, so I have delinked it.

FT2: I'm not sure what exactly you're asking for. It looks like you've already found several Chinese articles with the information you're looking for, so why not translate those? Why does it need to be a zh-wiki article? rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:56, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The aim is to write good and verifiable content on enwiki. (And thanks for the malware catch! Added strike-out.)

The pages are poorly translated unsourced unverifiable web pages that look like Wikipedia clones. Apparent WP clones aren't any kind of reliable source, but a cursory look strongly implies a common original exists on our site which would be sourced or verifiable if so, but none of them give a link as far as I can tell. If I could find an original zh or other Wikipedia page with the same content, it would probably have the WP:RS cites as well - which perhaps I can't find due to being in a non-English language - and I'd be able to verify the claims, and also the translation (in case it's been mashed in cloning), as well as checking if the sources are represented in a balanced way or important context was omitted in the pages I found (WP:NPOV/WP:NOR/WP:CITE/WP:V/WP:RS).

Right now all I have is a (strong) suspicion that a decent sourced page exists or used to exist on another language Wikipedia (Chinese/simple Chinese?) that would lists actual sources. But I don't know Chinese and my google-fu is not enough to track it down. Without the original page and (hopefully) its sources, I can't verify for myself several significant and plausible claims in these pages, and I can't look into possible significant facts which our enwiki article might be missing, and which the same sources might cover. Right now those pages aren't RS, so I need help to find anything more relevant on our Chinese/other language wikis. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 01:02, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, given that it's a British brand I'm not sure why Chinese would be the best language to look for resources on it. And why do you think a zh-wiki article is necessarily going to be better-referenced than the unreferenced stuff on Baidu and elsewhere? Just like en-wiki, the other Wikipedias are full of unreferenced articles. What is it about these other pages that makes you think they come from a well-sourced Chinese article somewhere?

This article doesn't exist on zh-wiki, so wherever those other pages you found got their information, it wasn't a zh-wiki article. And there is no "simple Chinese Wikipedia". (There are only Wikipedias in Mandarin, Cantonese, Min Nan, and Classical Chinese.) rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:27, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

There's also Wu, Gan, and Hakka. WhisperToMe (talk) 06:49, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure either, why it would be in Chinese, but the fact seems to be that it is. As a simple example, all those pages reference the awarding of BS5750, but a Google search for Karrimor BS5750 brings up only Chinese sites, and one self-authored page in poor English of similar content. The same happens for other searches of key terms. So it looks like the original is in Chinese and was some kind of Wikipedia page. Speculation why isn't important, but I would like help to find its sources or the original if it's possible (or if it's a deleted page on one of the wikis named here, perhaps its text could be emailed to me by someone who has access). FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 10:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Only one of remaining links claims to be from Wikipedia and it doesn't say which one. So how about an alternative scenario? One in which an earlier version of the English wikipedia page was poorly translated into Chinese, spread around various Chinese sites (maybe crediting Wikipedia), and then retranslated into an even poorer English.

On second thoughts, the history of the English (and Dutch) page and the history of the Baidu page don't support that theory. Astronaut (talk) 18:28, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Japanese help with characters on brooch

Someone on a Chinese history forum I frequent posted what they thought was a brooch featuring a Buddha's face and some Chinese characters. I deduced that the Buddha was actually the female Japanese deity Okame (a.k.a. Otafuku). As for the characters, I can only figure out the first 3 (of 4); I believe they are either 工目右 or 士目右. I'm not sure of the meaning since it is most likely Kanji. What is the last character, and what is the meaning? Thanks. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:26, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

It looks as if only registered members of that forum can see the attached images. 86.161.61.213 (talk) 21:55, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Can you see this or this? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:58, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

出目右滿 Deme Uman perhaps? --Kjoonlee 03:48, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Concur. Did a GoogSearch on those characters which brought me to "Online Netsuke-shi Database" which has "Deme Uman" on the page. It certainly looks like a brooch, perhaps a converted netsuke? Or a men-netsuke (面根付) or "mask netsuke"? (See netsuke) --220 of ^Borg 05:55, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Searching with shinjitai form 出目右満 lead me to 日本人名大辞典+Plus article 出目右満. According to tha page, Deme Sukemitsu was a nō-men-shi 能面師 (noh mask maker) in the Edo period. Apparently, he was also famous for his men-netsuke creations according to Google: "出目右満" 根付 --Kusunose 07:09, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for the feedback! --Ghostexorcist (talk) 15:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)