Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 August 23

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August 23

FAO and the NATO

Hi, I was reading something talking about "FAO" instead of "the FAO", and then I found our own article on the Food and Agriculture Organization uses "FAO", not to mention (the) FAO's own website. It looks wrong to me, but then I realised we don't say "the NATO". Is there a rule or guiding principle to whether it's "the SNLA" (Some Number of Letters Acronym) or just "SNLA"? IBE (talk) 02:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

This brings out the difference between a true acronym and merely an abbreviation/initialisation.

• Radar is an acronym because you pronounce it as a single word, not as 5 separate letters (ar-ay-dee-ay-ar). NATO is an acronym because you pronounce it as a single word, not as 4 separate letters (en-ay-tee-oh). Qantas is an acronym because you pronounce it as a single word, not as 6 separate letters (kew-ay-en-tee-ay-ess).
• The FAO, on the other hand, is simply an abbreviation because the 3 letters are sounded out (ef-ay-oh), and we don't pronounce it as a single word "fow" or "fayo". Same with the FBI, the CIA, the USA, the UN, the EC etc. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, it makes a big difference how you say it. The FAO is calling itself "FAO", as linked. Should I regard this as an illiteracy on their part? And btw, I hope I can get away with using "illiteracy" as a countable noun. IBE (talk) 03:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

As always, there are exceptions. MI5, not "the" MI5. BLP, not "the" BLP. JFK, not "the" JFK.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

These exceptions might even be questionable. The rule seems to be, if it isn't a proper acronym, just follow the same rules as for the expanded form. I would never say "The biographies of living persons" or "the military intelligence section 5" (or for that matter, "the John F Kennedy"). IBE (talk) 06:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Although "the JFK" can be used for the JFK Airport. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Note how, likewise, the FDA refers to itself as just "FDA", although typically it's called "the FDA" by most everyone else (which used as a noun).[1] Within its articles, though, it also says "the FDA". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

And never forget when discussing the highly esteemed Australian editor it is always The JoO and never JoO. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 21:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, if The JoO of Malta, The JoO of Venice et al, why not The JoO of Oz? (I'm not Jewish, but my sons are, technically, because their mother's mother's mother was a Polish Jew named Nina Goldberg. I will, however, admit to being JoOish.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It gets more complicated with UKIP, which is part-abbreviation/part-acronym (the 'U' is pronounced as the name of the letter, and 'KIP' like 'kip'). Mind you, I can't really be sure of this, because the 'u' in 'university' is pronounced the same way. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

As are the A in Asia, the E in Egypt, the I in Irene, and the O in Omaha. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I.O.U. an apology, then. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 18:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

G, I C Y U R A BFF.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:02, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Chinese help: Mandarin street names of Toronto Chinatown streets

Hi!

I need help with a street name in Chinatown,_Toronto#Translation_of_street_names. What is the Pinyin reading of "Beverley Street 比華利街"?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 04:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It's Bĭ(比) húa(華) lì(利) jīe(街). Alex Shih^Talk 05:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 19:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Chances are the names were named in Cantonese, not Mandarin, as most early Chinese in Canada were Cantonese speakers. Not that it makes much difference in writing, but thought I should throw it out there. Mingmingla (talk) 16:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The article needs more sourcing, so if there is a source stating that, it would be great to find it! For that reason I might request for a Cantonese version of the Toronto Chinatown. However I am still interested in the Mandarin since it is the modern "universal" Chinese dialect. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I assume "寶華街" is "Bǎohuá Jiē" - Also what is the pinyin for 卡梅隆街? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 19:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Here's a source: History of Chinese immigration to Canada. And while Mandarin Chinese is more common by a long shot in the world in general, Cantonese is still very common in ex-pat Chinese communities in Canada. Mingmingla (talk) 20:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

verb doubt

"The higher the investment in non-renewable energy is, the higher the total investment in energy capital assets"- In this sentence, is the use of the helping verb "is" correct? If not then please explain the rule about such sentences with some examples.Seeker (talk) 06:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I think I would add "will be" to sentence, as it's a cause-and-effect scenario. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

That kind of paired construction is called a comparative correlative. (Oh, we don't have an article yet!) You don't actually need the is in your example. "The higher the investment in 'x', the higher the total investment in 'y'" is ok. It's the same structure as: "The greater the risk, the greater the reward" and "The more the merrier". If you are going to use the 'is', then I agree with Bugs that it is better to add a corresponding verb on the other side, to maintain balance. There is a nice explanation of the structure, citing the Oxford English Dictionary and with a number of good examples, here. - Karenjc 08:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the verb should go either in both halves or in neither half. If it goes in both halves, it sounds more natural to me to say The higher is the investment in non-renewable energy, the higher is the total investment in energy capital assets. Duoduoduo (talk) 12:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I think it comes under the heading of parallel construction. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 13:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Difference between written and spoken language

Are some words pronounced exactly the same way like medal and meddle, or is there always a slight difference which you can't hear? Th4n3r (talk) 10:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

No; words like medal and meddle are pronounced exactly the same. There are some pairs of words that are distinguished only by a very small difference, though; for example, some speakers almost have the cot-caught merger but not quite, so that for them cot and caught are just slightly different--so slightly in fact that when the speakers hear their own pronunciation played back to them out of context, they can't tell which word is which. But I don't think any native English speaker makes any difference however slight between medal and meddle. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

[edit conflict] Yes, meddle and medal are complete homophones, that is, they are pronounced exactly the same. So are sea and see, and many other pairs in English. The reason such homophony is typically complete and there are no "slight differences which you can't hear" is this: each spoken language consista of a fixed system of elementary sound units, so-called phonemes. Both sea and see consist of the same two phonemes in English: /s/ and /i:/. Two words either consist of the same phonemes or they don't. That's usually a clear yes-or-no thing; there aren't any "intermediate" sounds between the phonemes that would be a matter of such "slight differences" you speak of. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

(Update: I wrote this before I saw Angr's answer. Don't worry about our two anwers being seemingly a bit contradictory: mine is just the slightly more basic version of the answer; his is the slightly more advanced one, adding one complication to the basic picture I sketched. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC))

Sometimes it depends on dialect. Some Americans pronounce 'latter' and 'ladder' identically (at least to my ears), but in my British accent they could not possibly be confused with each other. --ColinFine (talk) 12:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It certainly depends on dialect. Are pin/pen homophones? tint/tent? bin/been? (And is the 'ee' in been different from the 'i' or 'e' in the other words?) In some places, yes, those pairs are homophones. In other places, there has been no need to economize the needed effort to produce a certain vowel, so there is no shift. Schyler (exquirere bonum ipsum) 19:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Canuckois dialect in USA

I am looking for an expert in the Canuckois dialect as spoken by Americans of French Canadian descent in the New England states. My goal is translation of a number of terms used in the works of science fiction writer Julian May, including the Intervention series and the Galactic Milieu series.Alixnc286 (talk) 12:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia does have a brief article titled New England French which doesn't have much in the way of references, but perhaps it's a start. The Wikipedia article titled French American is a more general overview of Americans of French descent, but it has a much more thorough reference and bibliography section. I see a few books there you might try as a lead, several which focus on Franco-New Englanders. As an aside, I come from a strong New England French background through both sides of the family, though we are pretty Americanized by my generation; we still eat gorton and tourtiere on special occasions. Perhaps I can add my rather non-expert experience as well? Though I would definitely recommend combing through the bibliography of the French American article; there are several good leads there. --Jayron32 01:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

capital letters in some articles

Why some articles titles have an capitilized like "How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb" and not in others like "A Man and a Woman". Or "No Line on the Horizon". Why those letters are not cap? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 18:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It is traditional not to capitalize the, a/an and short prepositions on, of, for...etc., in titles in English. See Capitalization in English. μηδείς (talk) 18:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb is a redirect to an article with the proper capitalization: How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb. The Wikipedia Manual of Style's rules for the capitalization of titles of works are at MOS:CT. Deor (talk) 18:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and beware that WP's rules for capitalization have nothing to do with regular rules for writing English! μηδείς (talk) 18:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

oh, ok. Thanks. So I Shouldn't write those kind of words in caps? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 18:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

This: "How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb" is correct for standard English; and because it is the name of an album, and WP uses the original capitalization in article titles. But if we had a literal article about how to dismantle an atomic bomb it would be titled "How to dismantle an atomic bomb" according to Wikipedia conventions. If you then wrote a paper for a science class about how to dosmantle an atomic bomb, the title on the title page should be "How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb". μηδείς (talk) 19:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Ohhh I get it now. Thanks! :) Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 19:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

U'

How do you pronounce u' ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.58.19.84 (talk) 23:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

As "yoo prime". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)