Wikipedia:Peer review/Saint Vincent Beer/archive1

Saint Vincent Beer

I've listed this article for peer review I feel like it is close to FA ready

Thanks, Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 20:59, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

STANDARD NOTE: I have added this PR to the Template:FAC peer review sidebar to get quicker and more responses. When this PR is closed, please remove it from the list. Also, consider adding the sidebar to your userpage to help others discover pre-FAC PRs, and please review other articles in that template. Thanks! Z1720 (talk) 16:16, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Ceoil

• The lead image is way too small and puny
  • I am looking for something better --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:19, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• opening claim:Saint Vincent Beer was a beer - am struggling as to how to avoid the beer/beer [mmm....beer] thing here...maybe "was an acholic drink", and should the word brand or its early modern period equivalent be used
  • Done --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:19, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• In 1856, a brewery was established on - would prefer it was "they established", rather than attributing some NPCs
  • Done --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:19, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• "asking" for the brewing to be stopped - presumably he took legal recourse rather than just "asked"
  • The sources are unanimous that it started with an ask and moved on only when he was told no. I think that Kittell really though that the monks would join the temperance movement when asked --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:19, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
    • • Say who he asked. Ceoil (talk) 12:37, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

        Done -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 13:17, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

• Public sale: "In 1868...in 1891..." and then the undated The archabbey made $3 (equivalent to $60 in 2020) on the $14 wholesale price of each barrel. So when was he making that margin. You obv know as have converted for inflation...ps its not 2020 still and you are two years older than you think.
  • Done; the template doesn't have 2021 in it yet :( --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:19, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• The word beer appears 46 times. Please cut this at least in half as it makes for repetitive prose and heavy reading.
  • I am down to 31. Outside of the beer section, most paragraphs use beer once or twice --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:19, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• Gneral observations, some of the descrioptions veer towards promotional (think I removed most last w/end but some remain, and also - too many commas, eg this is a bit tortured "In 1895, Ferdinand Kittell, a parish priest in Loretto, Pennsylvania, asked Leander Schnerr, the third archabbot, to stop selling Saint Vincent Beer".
  • Done --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:19, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• Hope these and more to follow are helpful for an a;ready fine article, and as said earlier, nice topic choice and will be back later. Ceoil (talk) 18:10, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Ceoil! --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:19, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Good to here. More later. Ceoil (talk) 00:54, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Can you give a ping when SG's points below are addressed, and will give another run through. No rush of course. Ceoil (talk) 17:04, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

This is on my list. I just have wedding planning taking up my time -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 19:43, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

SG

• Latrobe is linked twice. In trying to sort that out, I eventually discovered that a) Latrobe is in PA; b) the Archabby is in Latrobe, which; c) made me understand the sentence, "The drink sold well and could be found as far away from Latrobe as Baltimore and New York City by 1868." That the brewery was in Latrobe might be established before this, and then the dupe link in the next section could be eliminated.
• I can't sort this sentence: The monastery was founded by German Benedictines given permission by Pope Pius IX in 1852 to brew and sell beer after a disagreement with Michael O'Connor, Bishop of Pittsburgh. I'm not sure if it's missing punctuation or what, but I can't tell if the disagreement was over the founding or the selling of beer, and I can't tell if the Pope gave them permission to found a monastery or to sell beer or both. I can't tell whose disagreeing over what and what the permission was for.
• This flow isn't working: The beer was first produced at the archabbey in 1856. The dark Bavarian-style beer sold well and at its height, the monastery produced 1,119 barrels per year. We say the beer, then say the beer again, only the second time do we say its a dark beer. "At its height", ugh. How about: The dark Bavarian-style beer was first produced at the archabbey in 1856. It sold well, and production was 1,119 barrels per year at its peak.
  • Do we know what year that peak production was ? If so, say that in the lead. (Found it later, 1891 ... say that in lead?)
• Identify Leander Schnerr when he is first introduced in the lead ... reader has to click out to understand how he relates.
• Temperance advocate and Catholic Priest, George Zurcher released Monks and Their Decline skewering the archabbey for being in the business of producing alcohol. The New York Voice released a piece of yellow journalism about the monks. Released ... released ... How about change one of them to published. Or wrote?
• Redundant: The pressure was successful. Due to the negative press, the archabbey had stopped brewing Saint Vincent Beer for external sale by 1900. How about: The negative press was successful, and the archabbey had stopped brewing Saint Vincent Beer for external sale by 1900.
• Passive voice? When Aurelius Stehle was elected Coadjutor Archabbot in 1918, the brewery was closed. Did he close it, or was it closed for some other reason ?
• Why is the brewery location the last thing in the lead? Can that be introduced sooner?
  • I did a complete overhaul of the lead which should make it more readable SG --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

• In 1848, Bavaria was an independent state; Bavaria, Germany needs to be sorted out. I believe it would be then the Kingdom of Bavaria. (This may be something Buidhe would know better than me.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:07, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

  Correct, Germany was not unified until 1871. "Bavaria, Germany" also sounds like a town or city when in fact it was an independent kingdom. I would write instead: "from the Kingdom of Bavaria (modern-day Germany)." (t · c) buidhe 00:07, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

• In 1848, Boniface Wimmer and a group of novices settled in Unity Township, Pennsylvania and established a Benedictine community. Wimmer came to the United States from Bavaria, Germany and brought the practice of abbeys brewing beer with him. The following year he gained ownership of a tavern and brewery in Indiana, Pennsylvania.

  ---> Boniface Wimmer came to the United States from the Kingdom of Bavaria (modern-day Germany) where beer was brewed in abbeys. In 1848, Wimmer and a group of novices settled in Unity Township, Pennsylvania and established a Benedictine community. The following year he gained ownership of a tavern and brewery in Indiana, Pennsylvania.

  • Perfect --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

• "providing that every disorder is avoided" ... I'm pretty sure that somewhere in MOS, we aren't supposed to wikilink within quotes in ways that put words in the mouth of the speaker, so some way of re-casting this to avoid linking to alcoholism is needed.
  • Works for me --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
• Passive voice ??? And permission ... permission ... in two sentences. ... the monks gained permission from Pius IX in 1852 to brew beer "providing that every disorder is avoided". Included was the permission to sell the beverage wholesale.

  --> the monks gained permission from Pius IX in 1852 to brew beer "providing that every disorder is avoided". The Pope also allowed them to sell the beverage wholesale.

  • Perfect --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

• Saint Vincent Beer was available at a bar on the Pittsburgh Pike in 1857, but was only available for widespread sales until after O'Connor resigned as Bishop in 1860. I don't know what this means ... until after --> after ??? Sales singular ??
  • Fixed --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi}

• Here is the first mention of Latrobe (as I mentioned above) ... at this point, the reader has no idea how Latrobe relates. The drink sold well and could be found as far away from Latrobe as Baltimore and New York City by 1868.
  • Fixed --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi}
• To meet this demand, a new two-story brick brewery building made out of brick was constructed next to the old one.
  • Fixed --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi}
• This was the start of the golden age of Saint Vincent Beer which lasted until 1888. --> This began the golden age of Saint Vincent Beer, which lasted through 1888.
  • Done --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi}
• The archabbey made $3 (equivalent to $60 in 2020) on the $14 wholesale price of each barrel in 1868. For each barrel sold in 1868 at a $14 wholesale price, the archabbey made $3 (equivalent to $60 in 2020).
  • Done --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi}
• During the golden age, several additional buildings were constructed on the brewery site including a malt house, two ice houses, cellars for storing the finished beverage, and a cooper house where barrels were produced by the monks. Were those all the buildings? If so, why "included"? --> During the golden age, additional buildings constructed on the brewery site were a malt house, two ice houses, cellars for storing the finished beverage, and a cooper house where barrels were produced by the monks. ... They manufactured barrels ??
  • Done; crazy right? All of the sources agree that they made all of their own barrels --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi}
• In the 1890s, the golden age of Saint Vincent Beer was followed by controversy and condemnation of the archabbey over the brewing of the drink, known as the Beer Fuss. This era is marked by negative attention from the growing temperance movement in the United States. Convoluted ...

  ---> The golden age of Saint Vincent Beer was followed in the 1890s by a controversy over the brewing of the drink, known as the Beer Fuss. This era marked condemnation and negative attention from the growing temperance movement in the United States.

• At this point again, Schnerr is mentioned, but we have to click out to figure out who he is.
  • Done --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
• pointing to the permission the monastery received in 1852 from the pope ... that was a specific person, so I think it needs uppercase, but to avoid any confusion over upper/lower case, say Pope Pius IX instead.
  • Done --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
• Unfazed, Kittell petitioned Francesco Satolli, the Apostolic Delegate to the United States, to stop the archabbey from selling Saint Vincent Beer since the monastery was not under the control of the local diocese. ---> Because the monastery was not under the control of the local diocese, Kittell petitioned Francesco Satolli, the Apostolic Delegate to the United States, to stop the archabbey from selling Saint Vincent Beer.
  • Done --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
• George Zurcher, a temperance advocate and Catholic priest, released Monks and Their Decline in 1898. Zurcher's pamphlet skewered the archabbey for brewing Saint Vincent Beer instead of joining the temperance movement. In it, he mocked the post-nominal letters of Benedictines, OSB, claiming that they should stand for "the Order of Sacred Brewers" and claimed that the monks were the reasons that many lay Catholics continue to get drunk. ----> George Zurcher, a temperance advocate and Catholic priest, released the pamphlet Monks and Their Decline in 1898. Zurcher skewered the archabbey for brewing Saint Vincent Beer instead of joining the temperance movement, and mocked the post-nominal letters of Benedictines, OSB, claiming that they should stand for "the Order of Sacred Brewers". He claimed that the monks were contributing to drunkenness of lay Catholics.
  • Done --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
• This brought the monastery into the popular consciousness outside of Pennsylvania. --- >>> The pamphlet's publication brought the monastery into the popular consciousness outside of Pennsylvania.
  • Done --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
• Due to the negative publicity and pressure from temperance groups, the monastery discontinued on April 29, 1899. Discontinued beer sales ??? They didn't shut down.
  • Correct. For the last 20 years, the drink was only for the monks and students --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
• The Loyalhanna Brewing Company was active in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, ... here we have a duplicate link to Latrobe, which should have been defined earlier ... I couldn't fix that myself, as I don't know if the brewery was in Latrobe or near Latrobe.
• I don't know what the "oftentimes" means here: Monastery sources have routinely claimed that the recipe was lost, oftentimes when the brewmaster died because it was not written down. They lost it more than once? They made this claim more than once? Oftentimes is confusing.
• However, in a 2009 NPR segment, a monk, who was only named as "Father Thomas," made the claim that the recipe was not lost but it is "not accessible" to the public. ---> In a 2009 NPR segment, a monk, who was only named as 'Father Thomas', claimed the recipe was not lost, but stated that it was "not accessible" to the public.
  • Done --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Good luck, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:31, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

@Guerillero: This PR has been open since January, and the last comment was in February. Are you still interested in receiving comments in this PR? If not, can you close this? Thanks, Z1720 (talk) 23:09, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Please give me another week. -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 18:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

This has been nominated for FAC, so I am closing this PR. Z1720 (talk) 02:23, 3 May 2022 (UTC)