Wikipedia:Peer review/Black Sabbath/archive1

Black Sabbath

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for April 2008.

This peer review discussion has been closed.
OK, this monolith has been completely rewritten, every word, and I plan on taking it to FA. Its long but the band has a huge history, with so many albums and lineups. Any suggestions would be helpful, I've spell checked it (to the best of my ability) and sourced everything I see that needs a source -if I miss anything, please point it out. And song samples are coming this weekend. Thanks!

Thanks, Skeletor2112 (talk) 11:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Review by Burningclean

Alright, I'll probably review this by section and it might take a while. It looks pretty friggen cool. Burningclean _[speak] 19:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Formation and early days (1968–1969)

• "As Earth, the group played club shows in England" Maby change the word "As" to "Under the name of". It's not that big of a deal, but I think it sounds better.
  • Hmm, I mention the name change the line above, and I think "As Earth" sounds ok...

Black Sabbath and Paranoid (1970–1971)

• "again with producer Rodger Bain" You already wikilinked him.
• "the charts at the time of Paranoid's UK release" The "'s" doesn't need to be in italics.

Master of Reality and Volume 4 (1971–1973)

• "The album broke the top ten in both the US and UK, was certified gold in less than two months, eventually selling a million copies in the US." Add "and" after the first comma.

Sabbath, Bloody Sabbath and Sabotage (1973–1976)

• "Sabotage features fan favorites such as "Hole in the Sky", and "Symptom of the Universe", one of the band's most popular songs." That should be sourced.

Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die! (1976–1979)

• "Ed Rivadavia of All Music Guide stating that the album's"unfocused songs perfectly reflected the band's tense personnel problems and drug abuse."" Space between album's and unfocused.
• "The album featured the singles "Never Say Die".and "Hard Road"," Rid of period between "Die" and "and".
• "which was later released on DVD as "Never Say Die"." Should be Never Say Die rather than "Never Say Die"

This is going a lot faster and easier than I thought. Beautiful article. Burningclean _[speak] 20:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The Eternal Idol, Headless Cross, and Tyr (1986–1990)

• Woo, it's been a while since I added something here. I've been reading, but not finding much to put down.
• "was the first Black Sabbath release not to break the Billboard Top 200 in the US." It should actually be Billboard 200. This should be for all instances of the chart. It isn't to big of a deal, but it kind of bugs me. To find them all, just press "Alt-F" and type in "Billboard 200". Sorry if you already knew to do that, but I think it is cool.

Dehumanizer (1990–1993)

• "and the band entered the studio with pop producer Reinhold Mack." I don't think you need to mention "pop" producer. The word "pop", for some reason, doesn't seem right in that sentence.

Cross Purposes and Forbidden (1993–1996)

• "The resulting Forbidden, was released on" You seem to use "The resulting" on just about every album, could you maby change it up?
  • Haha, I never noticed that, I wrote all of the sections on different days, I changed most of them.
• "The album was widely panned by critics; All Music's Bradley Torreano" you should always spell out All Music Guide, rather than shortening it to All Music's.
  • I think it is technically "Allmusic" now, they changed it,but yea, I put AMG.

Reunion (1997–2006)

• "Tony Iommi released his first official solo album Iommi in 2000" Put a comma before and after Iommi.That's it for the history section. Burningclean _[speak] 22:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks dude! \m/ Skeletor2112 (talk) 07:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Some random stuff

• Could you expand the last paragraph of the lead? I don't really like once sentence paragraphs. I'm not to big on the lead myself, but someone might want it longer by a paragraph because the article is so long. See WP:LEAD#Length.
• There is no mention of Iommi losing his fingers. That seems like a pretty important thing to me.
• It doesn't need to be long, but a "Controversy" section would be cool. Parents freaking out because they thought they were "satanic", drug abuse, etc.
• Not needed, but one more paragraph for the musical style section would be cool.
• There are some refs that have CAPS but shouldn't: Refs 86, 88, 90, 92, 96-99, 102-108.
• Seeing as how the ref is used alot, could you change the title of ref 11 to "Black Sabbath at All Music Guide"?

That's the rest of what I have for this article. I look forward to supporting this. You must feel pretty cool knowing you did the original heavy metal band! Burningclean _[speak] 21:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

M3tal H3ad

• horror-inspired lyrics with doomy, detuned guitars, - "doomy" is vague
• releasing a string of gold and platinum - "a string of" is something you would find in a magazine article, not an encyclopedia
• You may want to remove the repetition of "of all time" for the third paragraph of the lead
• 1970's quadruple - 1980s and 1990s - with or without the '
• Grammy Award should look like Grammy Award
• While gigging in England - touring?
• the band discovered that they were
• wrote a song he titled "Black Sabbath"
• Attracting attention for their live performance- should this be 'performances'? Nothing is mentioned before about a single performance so i assume they attracted attention with several performances
• returned to the studio in June 1970, again with producer Rodger Bain to record their follow up album - return to the studio and record their follow-up seems redundant, 'again' is also redundant if they are returning
• four million copies in the US alone, with virtually no radio airplay
• Paranoid's chart success in America allowed the band to tour the US - America and US, you could probably remove 'in America' in this sentence anyway
• failed to crack the top - an alternative for 'crack'? :)
• broke the top ten in both the US and UK - entered?
• was certified gold in less than two months, eventually selling a million copies in the US - could maybe tell the reader when it was certified platinum instead of 'eventually'
• Master of Reality also contained - no need for the also
• alongside metal staples - kind of fan-ish
• Following the Volume 4 world tour, Black Sabbath again returned - returned implies 'again' thus making 'again' redundant
• with Rolling Stone calling the album - italics for RS
• Also in 1974 - i think you should avoid starting a sentence with an additive
• with Rolling Stone stating - does the reference have a reviewer?
• Sabotage cracked the top 20 - cracked is a weird term to use
• , one of the band's most popular songs. could be removed, 'fan favorite is mentioned just before', also seems fan-ish
• million copies in the US alone

I reviewed up to Technical Ecstasy and will do it in several parts. Nice to see the article getting your attention, good work. M3tal H3ad (talk) 05:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks dude! \m/ Skeletor2112 (talk) 07:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

indopug

Woah! Fantastic job man; hopefully we can not completely fight over an article for once ;) I'll be mainly pointing stuff I think needs expanding or addition.

• I see that you have not mentioned Iommi losing his fingers in the History section. The accident is an absolutely essential part of their history and merits inclusion here too.
• Try to ensure that after the first linked, full name mention of a band member (like Bill Ward) only mention them by last name for the rest of the article (Ward) or for a significant number of sections. I find plenty of unnecessary linking of band members as well the occasional qualification (Drummer Bill Ward), which is again, totally unnecessary.
• I know its hard to find, but it would be nice if you found contemporary reviews of the various albums... AMG reviews, written twenty years after the releasses, will generally be positive IMO.
• "as a single - the band's first since Paranoid - but failed"--review WP:MOSDASH
• "Technical Ecstasy, released on 25 September 1976, was met with mixed reviews. All Music Guide gave the album two stars, and noted that the band was "unraveling at an alarming rate"."--sounds as if it was a contemporary review.
• Some of the stuff in quote could probably be converted into prose. "It just wasn't right, so I left", Iommi said. "At first I thought Tull were great, but I didn't much go for having a leader in the band, which was Ian Anderson's way. When I came back from Tull, I came back with a new attitude altogether. They taught me that to get on you got to work for it"-- a prime candidate, esp. the second part.
• "reached number 8 in the UK" -- review WP:MOSNUM. Also expressing numbers such as 23 as twenty-three also helps readability, and makes the text look elegant.
• Details about touring can be cut down. Especially in the 1980s portion, you've added unnecessary detail such as the bands Sabbath toured with (lists of names never ever make for interesting reading). "which began in Europe with Diamond Head, and later in the US with Quiet Riot and Night Ranger. The band headlined the 1983 Reading Festival, adding the Deep Purple song "Smoke on the Water" to their set list." doesn't really merit such detailed description, I think that whole bit can go. The only time when naming a co-touring band really works in this article is the Van Halen bit, which was an essential description to Sabbath's state at that time.
• "and also featured reunions of The Who, Led Zeppelin and Neil Young with Crosby, Stills, and Nash."--again why is this needed?
• Bassist Dave Spitz quit due to "personal issues"--often putting stuff in quotes makes it sound as if the text intends to be sarcastic and judgemental. This is one of those times.
• "Black Sabbath began touring in support of Dehumanizer in July 1992 with Testament, Danzig, Prong, and Exodus."
• In the 1990s, the overlinking becomes especially severe, with Ronnie James Dio mentioned in full and linked in pretty much every paragraph.
• Skipping past the 90s to the Legacy section, I find it sparse compared to the nicely comprehensive History section. "including Metallica, Iron Maiden,[98] Anthrax, Opeth,[99] Pantera, Megadeth,[100] The Smashing Pumpkins,[101] Slipknot,[102] the Foo Fighters,[103]Fear Factory,[104] and Godsmack."--really if you want to list every notable band that has expressed Sabbath as being an influence on them, well, the list might just be fifty times that length; remove it completely. Again "Sepultura, White Zombie, Type O Negative, Faith No More, Machine Head, System of a Down and Monster Magnet."--just say featured covers by a number of popular metal acts.
• The Style section is surprisingly short; you need to describe the musical styles of Sabbath throughout their career. No mention of the synthesiser period with Rike Wakeman, the changes style when Dio, Gillian came in. Where is the discussion of the lyrical themes generally present (anti-war, for one, immediately comes to mind). Another thing missing throughout the article, which I've seen in many heavy metal documentaries, is the influence of a Birmingham upbringing on the band. The general dourness of the industrial town played a vital part on their bleak sound; much of the "metal" sound Iommi invented was inspired by the sound he heard in the factory he worked in.
• Only sparse/no mention of devil worship and satanism and all that!? I believe Sabbath were the first band that truly freaked parents and Christians, and made them actually afraid of the nature of the music. Also I've heard Ward confess in a documentary as a devil-worshipper and what-not :)

Very good work, hopefully this PR will make the article completely comprehensive. So long :) indopug (talk) 14:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)