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Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Glina massacres/1

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Glina massacres

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review
Result: Delist It would be much easier if editors !voting for delist would actively refer back to the criteria when doing so. From reading this discussion the main issues seem to be broadness and neutrality. Broadness is borderline as we are relatively lenient on that for Good articles. Neutrality is a more valid reason. Anything with massacre in the title needs to be strongly sourced and carefully worded. That there is some doubt over this the best course of action is to delist so that these concerns can be dealt with. AIRcorn (talk) 06:29, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The article is not well-writen and not neutral. Use of unreliable sources, academically disqualified.

Misinterpretations and forgeries

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  • Poorly equipped and poorly trained, the Royal Yugoslav Army was quickly defeated.[2] - false; the Royal Yugoslav Army was betrayed and sabotaged by German minority in Yugoslavia, by Croats and Slovenes, too
  • That is a common but mistaken trope about betrayal. The Army and Army Air Force were outclassed in every area, and the war was already largely over after the first four days due to collapse of the southern front. And this was before the fifth column elements made their presence felt post-10 April. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:39, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Utter nonsense. First example: "Kapetan Vladimir Kren, kao organizovani ustaša, 3. aprila 1941. prebegao je iz Zagreba u Austriju i Nemcima dao podatke o letačkom rasporedu Jugoslovenskog ratnog vazduhoplovstva." from Petranović, Branko (1992). Srbija u Drugom svetskom ratu 1939—1945. Beograd: Vojnoizdavački i novinski centar. pages 100-101
Second example: "Slovenački predstavnici u Vladi Fran Kulovec i Miho Krek su 5. aprila 1941. preko Poslanstva Slovačke u Beogradu nudili Trećem Rajhu izdvajanje Slovenije iz sastava Kraljevine Jugoslavije pod uslovom da se garantuje integritet tako izdvojene Slovenije. " from Branko Petranović: ISTORIJA JUGOSLAVIJE, knjiga I - KRALJEVINA JUGOSLAVIJA , Nolit Beograd page 413
Third example: "A number of Croat officers even went to the extreme of committing acts of treason. In one such instance, an air force officer flew from Belgrade to Graz as early as 3 April and handed over to the Germans the highly classified list of airfields where the Yugoslav planes were dispersed. Thus, when the Luftwaffe struck these fields during the initial attack wave, it virtually wiped out what little Yugoslav air power there was. In the ground fighting, shortly after the Germans attacked, entire Croat units simply threw away their weapons and quit. In some instances, Croat officers led their men in organized attacks against Serb elements that ware actively resisting the invaders. On 8 April, Croat troops openly revolted in Vinkovci, the main railroad junction along the vital Belgrade-Zagreb line. They launched a concerted attack against the headquarters of First Army Group and held as prisoners its commander with his entire staff until they were rescued by loyal Serb troops. Such occurrences were not unusual and happened in other sectors as well." from PART TWO THE YUGOSLAV CAMPAIGN in The German Campaign in the Balkans by DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY WASHINGTON 25, D.C., 17 November 1953
Fourth example: About treasonous behavior of the Yugoslav Volksdeutsche male population read in The Danube Swabians: German Populations in Hungary, Rumania and Yugoslavia, and Hitler’s impact on their Patterns by G.C. Paikert, Springer Science & Business Media, Dec 6, 2012 page 276 here--Bocin kolega (talk) 10:29, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I acknowledge all of that, but fifth column activity was ancillary to the actual fighting. Tomasevich 1975 pp. 84–86 weighs it up and makes that clear. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:20, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Huh, you are playing again with names and pages?! What exactly your Tomasevich (amateur historian) wrote there? How he countered Petranovic (a history Universty professor) and the US Army military analysts about treason and sabotages? Somewhere else, the same Tomasevich wrote: "The chief task of the Yugoslav Volskdeutsche at the time of the invasion was to act as a fifth column. Under Janko's direction, German men had been organized into a sports group, the Deutsche Mannschaft. Overnight it was converted into a paramilitary organization that collaborated with German forces entering the Banat from Romania and with those entering Slovenia, and Slavonia form Austria and western Hungary."--Bocin kolega (talk) 13:43, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You can't have it both ways, dismiss Tomasevich on one hand and use him as an example on the other. Your argumentation is barely coherent. Tomasevich p. 86 concludes, inter alia, "The rapid military collapse of the Yugoslav army in April 1941 was the consequence of the tremendous economic and military discrepancy between the adversaries... All other factors, including the fifth-column activity, were ancillary, having nominal effect on the speed and totality of the military collapse, and only a small effect on the way in which the army and the state collapsed." Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:03, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am not dismissig Tomasevich this way - just pointing at contradicion in his writings. I'm dismissing him as a military analyst since he is not a military analyst. On my side I referenced the credible military analysis - the US Army analysis from 1953.--Bocin kolega (talk) 09:46, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a contradiction. Tomasevich acknowledges the fifth column activity, but says that it was only ancillary to the final outcome. He says the defeat was due to the mismatch between the forces. ie that the Yugoslavs were outclassed. Do you have a reliable source that contradicts that assessment, or just a grab bag of mentions of the fifth column activity that admittedly occurred? BTW, the US Army analysis, which was drawn from debriefs of German commanders, is 20 years older than Tomasevich, and on p. 66 actually agrees with Tomasevich. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:27, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Chapter 11 of the US Army analysis lists three reasons for destruction of the Jugoslav army not reducing it to pure technical superiority of Germans nor it says anything about insignificance of treason and the fifth column. Tomasevich js just an amateur as to the military affairs here.--Bocin kolega (talk) 09:03, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Glina is a small market town[13] in the Banovina[14] region of Croatia located about 55 kilometers (34 miles) south of Zagreb.[15] - it's enough to write Glina to see the town's geographical coordinates
Nonsense--Bocin kolega (talk) 10:29, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think I have more of idea what is normal practice on en WP when explaining where a location is. What exactly is your problem with saying what size the town was, in what region it lies and how far it is from Zagreb? Seems a strange position to take. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:10, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1931, the town itself had a population of 2,315 people[13] and was inhabited mostly by Serbs, Croats, and Jews.[16] - arbitrarily written; actually there was 53% Croats 47% Serbs, a few Jews, In addition the Glina district population had 2/3 Serbs accordng to the 1931 census
I gave the most reliable source supporting my statement above - the Kingdom of Yugoslavia 1931 census.--Bocin kolega (talk) 13:43, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is a primary source for starters. What is the citation for the 1931 census? What page is it on? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:58, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please, troll elsewere.--Bocin kolega (talk) 09:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Accusing an editor of trolling without any basis is a personal attack. Personal attacks are not permitted on WP. Pull your head in. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Without any basis, you say? Here is visible that you removed the disputed tag twice claiming that nothing was given on talk page justifying the tag, contrary to the facts. Here at the beginning of this entry I clearly stated "accordng to the 1931 census" You again pretended not to see the fact. This kind of behavior is trolling.--Bocin kolega (talk) 17:10, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't pretend not to see it, I asked for a reference, a published version of the 1931 census and page number so the material can be added to the article. There is little point in saying something should be added to the article without providing a citation to the reliable source you are suggesting contains the information. Otherwise it is just your say-so, and we don't add material to articles on the say-so of an editor. Have you actually read this information in a copy of the census? If so, it must have information about its publication, and you must be able to provide a page number. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:15, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You again pretending? What was the reason for removing the disputed tag twice? As to the census, find it and download it, use the proper document viewer and search for the "Glina" string. Come back when you do what is asked here.--Bocin kolega (talk) 09:07, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You are the one suggesting the article is inaccurate, so the burden is on you to produce the source. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:50, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not suggesting, the proof is given. For verification purposes, get Definitivni rezultati popisa stanovnistva od 31 marta 1931 godine:Prisutno stanovnistvo po veroispovesti, page 86 a secondary source is BOLJE DA TI UĐE U KUĆU VUK, NEGO PUK.--Bocin kolega (talk) 12:25, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Ustaše then locked inside[20] and massacred[21] those who did not possess conversion certificates, including priest Bogdan Opačić.[19] The bodies were then left to burn as the Ustaše set the church on fire[15] and waited outside to shoot any survivors attempting to escape the flames.[21] On 13 May, a further 100 Serb males were executed by the Ustaše in the nearby village of Prekopa.[22] - completely false. Ustase arested (May 11-13) all males they were able to catch, transported by trucks to village Prekopa where a mass grave was already dug shot them by a firing squad (417 or 437 persons)
  • The next day, Pavelić visited Rome and was granted a private audience with Pope Pius XII, who offered de facto recognition of the NDH on behalf of the Holy See. Although he was aware that Pavelić was a totalitarian dictator, there is no evidence that he had knowledge of the first Glina massacre at the time.[7] Midlarsky actually said, "Four days after the Glina masssacre, Pavelic had a "devotional" meeting with Pope Pius XII in the Vatican; at the same time, the Holy See granted de facto recognition to the newly created Nazi puppet Independent State of Croatia. As John Cornwell indicates, there is no evidence that the pope was aware of these massacres that time." - from the talk page
  • Estimates of the number of Serbs killed on 11–13 May vary. Historians Jozo Tomasevich[15] and Ivo Goldstein put the number at 260.[23] Historians Sabrina P. Ramet[24] and Marko Attila Hoare estimate that about 300 Serbs were massacred[25] while historian Davide Rodogno puts the number at 417 killed.[26] - Tomasevich (a writer, not hstorian) and Goldstein are quoting some letter supposed to be written by Stepinac and sent to Pavelic, Ramet and Hoare - no primary sources cited, Rodogno cited the "Promemoria per il duce con allegata una relazione del 9 Iuglio redatta dal Comando dei C.C.R.R. dela II Armata" document sent by the Second Italian Army Command to Mussolini dated on July 9 1941. Rodogno wrote, In the district of Glima more than 18 000 Serbs were murdered, 417 of them butchered inside the Orthodox church.
  • On the night of 30 July 1941, a massacre similar to the one in May again occurred in Glina.[18] - not similar at all; see my comment above
  • About one month later, the church was burned down by the Ustaše.[22] - not burned rather destroyed; a proposal given by a German officer (Openheim) to turn the church into a movie theatre or some other public use building was rejested by local Roman Catholic priest (Franc Žužek)
  • Estimates of the number of Serbs killed from 30 July to 3 August vary widely. Sociologist Damir Mirković[18] and historian Paul Mojzes state that 700 Serbs were killed.[30] Journalist Tim Judah puts the number at 1,200,[31] and historian Iván T. Berend writes that the Ustaše killed 1,800 people.[32] Hoare writes that as many as 2,000 Serbs were murdered.[33] - primary souces not given nor used to verify "estimates". By name, there was identified 203 persons, the number in the church slaughtered = 900, from the mass graves exhavated 2000 skulls. Berend wrote "The terrible incidents of Glina, one of the first scenes of the new confrontation, where Croat fascists slaughtered 1,800 Serbs in a church and on the outskirts of the township in 1941" not giving dates.
  • From an estimated 300,000 Croatian Serbs that were murdered by the Ustaše from 1941 to 1945,[14] more than 18,000 were from Glina at its surroundings.[26] - far from true, Rodogno cited Italian war time document saing that 18 000 were killed until July 9 1941 in the Glina district
  • That summer, the Ustaše had offered amnesty for all Serbs in the NDH who would convert from Eastern Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicism. Many Serbs responded positively, and one group turned up at a Serbian Orthodox church in Glina where a conversion ceremony was to take place.[27] -taken out of context. The truth is: Glenny quoted a Nuremberg testimony, as it was given in Der Kroatische Ustascha Staat, page 101. From the testimony given by Ljuban Jednak, there was a large group of male Serbs, between age 16-60, who were arrested in the Glina district and put in Topusko district prison and the prison yard. They were told that all arrested Serbs would be sent to Lika for a forced labor. All arrested Serbs were tied by wire and transported to Glina in cattle wagons. Jednak mentioned the cattle wagon capacity was 150-160 persons and there were at least two wagons used for that purpose.
  • From talkpage, slightly edited and verified
Viktor Meier in his Yugoslavia: A History of Its Demise on page 127 says: The murderous actions of the Ustaše against the Serbian population in Lika, in Banija, and in Bosnia began around June 1941, around Glina, where the Ustaše Minister of Justice, Marko Puk, had his political base.
In the article Meier was interpreted as: Shortly after the Ustaše took power, the Croatian Minister of Justice, Mirko Puk, established a base in the town.[18]
  • In Chapter 9 The Genocidal Twentieth Century in the Balkans by Paul Mojzes of the Confronting Genocide: Judaism, Christianity, Islam by Steven Leonard Jacobs (ed.) Lexington Books, May 16, 2009 we have on
page 159: Sometimes entire villages were completely
page 160: wiped out, such as Prkos in Kordun, Croatia; at other times, more than one massacre occured in the same village, such as Glina where a first massacre was followed by the slaughter of about 700 peasants, who were taken to a church, ostensibly to be converted to Catholicism (Mirković, 1993: 324)
In the article the quoted text above was interpreted as: Estimates of the number of Serbs killed from 30 July to 3 August vary widely. Sociologist Damir Mirković[19] and historian Paul Mojzes state that 700 Serbs were killed.[31]
First of all, Mojzes did not mention any dates, just wrote: first massacre was followed by the slaughter of about 700 peasants quoting Mirković. Actually, there were two massacres: one between July 26-29 and the other between August 3-5 1941. Obviously Mojzes refers to the first one.

Use of sources disqualified academically

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Use of marginal to this topic authors and their works

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Marginal authors and their works: Singleton, Berend, Ash, Hoare, Meier, Dizdar, Glenny, Segel instead expert authors like: Aralica, Bulajić and Vujasinović et al

  1. Аралица, Ђуро (2010). УСТАШКИ ПОКОЉИ СРБА У ГЛИНСКОЈ ЦРКВИ (PDF) (in Serbian). Музеј жртава геноцида Београд. ISBN 978-86-86831-03-3.
  2. Bulajić, Milan (1988). Ustaški zločini genocida i suđenje Andriji Artukoviću 1986. godine, kniga 2. (in Serbian). Rad Beograd.
  3. Vujasinović, Brankо; Višnjić, Čedomir; Roksandić, Đurо (2011). Glina 13. maja 1941. (in Croatian). SKD Prosvjeta Zagreb.

--Bocin kolega (talk) 19:36, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

23 editor just making sure you are aware of this, as you have access to some sources. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:40, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • DELIST - I don't necessarily agree with all of Bocin kolega's specific criticisms, but what he clearly has demonstrated is that the research that was undertaken for this article was insufficient for good article status. Bocin kolega provided a useful list of reliable, scholarly sources that cover this massacre in great detail, but none of them were consulted in writing this article, so a great many very important points of view (whether we fully agree with them or not), were conspicuously omitted. My advice is that this article be rewritten with more information and perspectives from the excellent books Bocin kolega has recommended. After that, the article can be renominated.Martinthewriter (talk) 00:00, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately, the complaints here seem to be in the manner of throwing things and seeing what sticks. The sources presented range from a few reliable sources, to many sources in Serbian of varying quality, all the way down to Wordpress blogs. The coup the grace would be the final comment asserting that English sources on the massacre are "marginal", while the only reliable sources are Serbian. I'm not satisfied the nominator has proven that the article is POV, but I reckon they might have to tame some POV of their own. Not to mention incivility, which is not evidence in favour of delisting or keeping this article, but personally attacking Peacemaker, who is one of the few non-Yugoslav editors willing to tackle YU WWII topics, doesn't really add to credibility. Hence, keep. Daß Wölf 13:19, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The vote above fails to comply to WP:AGF and WP:NPOV. The statements of this vote are either sensles (...the complaints here...) or false (rest of it). This reassessment is not complaint, rather an assessment of the article content. Judging the sources is possible only through valid academic reviews and appraisals, not by personal opinion (...in Serbian of varying quality...!!). None of them is a Worldpress blog. Refusal to accept someone's (Peacemaker) baseless disqualifications od facts is not personal attack nor it is relevant when judging the article facutal accuracy.
  • DELIST - since I do not see any serious work on this article credibility and accuracy for over more than six months.--Bocin kolega (talk) 14:24, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delist while I don't agree with much of Bocin kolega's criticism (he claims Tomasevich is an amateur historian, for example, which is risible), as well as the way in which it has been made (accusing editors of forgery in particular), even with Bocin kolega's poor English expression and lack of logic in some comments, there is too much doubt about the massacres and their individual details currently in the article for it to remain a GA. Given nothing has been done by the primary author to try and address these doubtful aspects in six months, or even respond here to the comments made, delisting is the only appropriate thing to do. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:40, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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